Knowledge vs belief

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, aik said:

Well, have you ever heard anyone inviting you to believe in jesus who had died for your sons and resurrected from the dead as the bible says?

 

Yes, we have.

 

You are not the first Christian who has arrived at this forum and invited us to believe in Jesus.

 

Look back through the history of the Lion's Den and you will see that they all failed and left.

 

They failed and left because, like you aik, they could not support their testimonies with independent evidence.

 

Sooner or later you will fail too.

 

For the same reason.

 

And then you will leave.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

 

son_of_GOD - Ex-Christian.Net

 

KayMing - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Fish153 - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Reborn_Kingdom_Image - Ex-Christian.Net

 

AustinAustin - Ex-Christian.Net

 

SemmelweisReflex - Ex-Christian.Net

 

TheDude - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Georgia - Ex-Christian.Net

 

SomeGuy - Ex-Christian.Net

 

ironhorse - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Brothermario - Ex-Christian.Net

 

pittsburghjoe - Ex-Christian.Net

 

chrisassaf - Ex-Christian.Net

 

vday - Ex-Christian.Net

 

HaveFaith - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Lost_more_then_Once - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Knott - Ex-Christian.Net

 

OrdinaryClay - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Justus - Ex-Christian.Net

 

 

Do you remember how a claim is stronger and more reliable when it is supported by independent evidence, aik?  Well, I claimed that you weren't the first 'true' Christian to arrive here.  And now I have supported my claim with evidence that is independent of me.

 

Nineteen 'true' Christians came here, inviting us to believe in Jesus.  And they all failed and they all left.  You are no different.

 

I went back through just 10 pages of the Lion's Den to find this evidence.  In all there are 179 pages making up the Lion's Den.  So there will be a LOT more Christians who arrived here like you, invited us to believe in Jesus just like you and who failed and left - just as you will.

 

It's only a matter of time.

[Astreja]

6 hours ago, aik said:

Well, have you ever heard anyone inviting you to believe in jesus who had died for your sons and resurrected from the dead as the bible says?

 

I've received that invitation hundreds of times.  All of them have failed.  All.  Of.  Them.  You are doomed to fail also, Aik, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that because you don't have any evidence that's up to my standards.

 

I will never accept the alleged sacrifice of Jesus because I consider it cowardly and shameful to have someone else die in my place.  I pay my own debts.

 

I do not consider the Bible to be a valid source of information, so when the Bible claims that Jesus was resurrected I dismiss it as nothing more than a myth.

[midniterider]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:25 PM, aik said:

He takes away fears and giveth faith that his children will be able to do good.

 

Yeah, he didnt do that for pharaoh. I believe he killed children during the passover...why do they call it passover when God killed children in Egypt? Maybe call it God's Slaughter.

[midniterider]

23 hours ago, aik said:

 and consulted the devil instead of jesus, that is why some of them became members of this website, like you.

 

You're a member of this website as well. The devil has taken you!

[midniterider]

20 hours ago, aik said:

Hearing gods word is a gift from god, it is not from your skills or my skills. A gift from god. Whenever you repent from your sins, from your unbelief, you will have this gift. That simple. A gift can be either accepted or rejected. 

 

Repentence prepares your inside, we call it heart, for having communication with the Lord. The repentence brings you to belief, by which your concience is getting cleansed, by the faith in jesus, and through it your spirit comes to a life. Before it your spirit is not able to communicate with god becausenof sin. But repentence had distroyed that barrier. The spirit is alive. Your spiritual ears the same way become open, and you get understading of the will of god.

 

I think what's more likely is someone lets you talk them into pretend believing in Jesus, but with regular reinforcement, like church, the person is brainwashed more and more into believing your bullshit. That's kind of how it went with me. With practice, the average person can be influenced to start believing all the Christian nonsense. 

 

Repentence is a result of being brainwashed by someone like yourself. From there the brainwashed person 'believes' he is communicating with God. In reality, he is just making up stuff from his own brain. 

 

I think the real test of God's existence is to just have God show up in person, not listen to your religious nonsense. And if that's not 'the way it works' then I'm not interested.  

[aik]

2 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

I've received that invitation hundreds of times. 

 

I will never accept the alleged sacrifice of Jesus because I consider it cowardly and shameful to have someone else die in my place.  I pay my own debts.

 

This is your decision. 

 

And if you are saying that you pay your debts, it means that you decide to stay as a debtor all your life. 

 

Well, this is not physics or medicine, but it is another spiritual science let us say. 

 

Debts are spiritual, freeing from them has to be also spiritual. Do you agree? 

[aik]

20 hours ago, aik said:

Hearing gods word is a gift from god, it is not from your skills or my skills. A gift from god. Whenever you repent from your sins, from your unbelief, you will have this gift. That simple. A gift can be either accepted or rejected. 

 

Repentence prepares your inside, we call it heart, for having communication with the Lord. The repentence brings you to belief, by which your concience is getting cleansed, by the faith in jesus, and through it your spirit comes to a life. Before it your spirit is not able to communicate with god becausenof sin. But repentence had distroyed that barrier. The spirit is alive. Your spiritual ears the same way become open, and you get understading of the will of god.

After this your brain analyses how to realize this or that. @Weezer 

 

Only brainwashing will help you to find god speaking. Actually it is not only a brainwashing, it is a heartwashing, spirit washing and all you beeing washed.

[Astreja]

14 minutes ago, aik said:

This is your decision. 

 

And if you are saying that you pay your debts, it means that you decide to stay as a debtor all your life. 

 

Well, this is not physics or medicine, but it is another spiritual science let us say. 

 

Debts are spiritual, freeing from them has to be also spiritual. Do you agree? 

 

No, Aik.  I am completely out of debt, literally.  I own my house, all my utilities are paid, and my current credit card balances are zero.

 

Debts are not spiritual, and I completely and absolutely disagree with you.   I owe your imaginary friend Jesus nothing at all.

[aik]

5 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

No, Aik.  I am completely out of debt, literally.  I own my house, all my utilities are paid, and my current credit card balances are zero.

 

Debts are not spiritual, and I completely and absolutely disagree with you.   I owe your imaginary friend Jesus nothing at all.

By saying debts the bible also means sin. Not only a financial thing. So the sin case is spiritual.

 

Who will pay for it?

[aik]

@Astreja in the bible we have a story of abraham, who was an old man and still did not have a child. And god makes a promise to him that he will be a father of many nations. How do you think did abraham then? He was about 75 years old by that time according to my own calculations. See, an old man, who knows that he is over with initimicy with his wife, and he see that there is no way for him and his wife to have a child. His wife is 10 years younger than him. 

 

I think he clearly understood that it is impossible for them to bear a child. I would think the same. What about you?

 

In romans 4:19 it says that he .... let me show you.

Rom 4:19-21: "Without weakening in his faith, he acknowledged the decrepitness of his body (since he was about a hundred years old) and the lifelessness of Sarah’s womb. Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised."

 

A medical specielist would say also, it is impossible. An old man would say also, abraham did. An adult man would also say. So everything lean upon scientific knowledge that it is impossible. And see what happens. Abraham decides to believe that God's promise is true. 

 

And guess what. 25 years later, when abraham was 100 and his wife 90 years old, they are visited by god saying that in one year they will have a son. What does it mean? It means that abraham who believed god should do something. For example  to his wife. Knowing that he and she had no power at all. But he knew also that god is true. So he did. He entered to his wife and they had isaac less than one year. 

 

I had a friend here. He had a brother who could not have a child for 5 or 6 years after marriage. They had tried many things. Doctors said clearly, impossible! They were about to be destroyed. But my friend once saw there state, and he said to them, though you do no believe in gods existence but i will ask my lord for mercy for you to give you a child. And he prayed for the non believing relatives. And guess what. In a couple of weeks he calls me with rejoice and says that they will have a baby. And they have a son now, he is about 7 or 8 years old. 

 

I mean that based on your knowledge you are correct. But gods knowledge and power are beyond ours.

 

 

 

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, aik said:

By saying debts the bible also means sin. Not only a financial thing. So the sin case is spiritual.

 

Who will pay for it?

 

Aik, I clearly said that I do not place any value on the Bible as a source of information.  To me, it is a book  of mythology, and I do not owe anything at all to mythological characters.

[Astreja]

21 minutes ago, aik said:

@Astreja in the bible we have a story of abraham...

 

Mythology.

 

Quote

I mean that based on your knowledge you are correct. But gods knowledge and power are beyond ours.

 

If I am correct in my assumption that your god doesn't actually exist, everyone on this website has more knowledge and power than your god.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 minute ago, Astreja said:

 

Mythology.

 

 

If I am correct in my assumption that your god doesn't actually exist, everyone on this website has more knowledge and power than your god.

 

I do not enjoy circular discussionas, and agree with Astreja that your god does not exist.  So why continue talking about something that does not exist.  Goodbye.

[aik]

16 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

Mythology.

 

 

If I am correct in my assumption that your god doesn't actually exist, everyone on this website has more knowledge and power than your god.

Here you show your limits. When clear testimonies by which you are surrounded show you that there is a power beyond natural one, and it does what the nature cannot, and you shut your eyes and say that you do not believe that there is the power. This is your decision. This is your limits. Unfortunately. 

[aik]

20 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

Mythology.

 

 

If I am correct in my assumption that your god doesn't actually exist, everyone on this website has more knowledge and power than your god.

Conclusion is corrupt here. Your assumption does not make it to be true, and does not geant any power to others. 

[Astreja]

29 minutes ago, aik said:

Here you show your limits. When clear testimonies by which you are surrounded show you that there is a power beyond natural one, and it does what the nature cannot, and you shut your eyes and say that you do not believe that there is the power. This is your decision. This is your limits. Unfortunately. 

 

I do not consider testimonies to be evidence of supernatural power.  They are, however, evidence that people sometimes have improbable experiences that they interpret in the framework of their beliefs.  They happen in all religions, not just Christianity.

[Astreja]

32 minutes ago, aik said:

Conclusion is corrupt here. Your assumption does not make it to be true, and does not geant any power to others. 

 

No, I'm quite sure that I'm more powerful than your god.  Perhaps I should demonstrate My power to you. 

[midniterider]

Aik, why do you believe the bible is true? 

 

I'm glad your friend had a baby. Other people pray for a baby but don't get one. What does this mean? By the way, doctors often give patients a poor prognosis. I think it protects them against lawsuits. 

 

 

[midniterider]

I believe there is a prayer test you can do. Flip a coin 100 times, each time praying for heads to come up as you flip it. Then write down your results. It will probably be heads about 50 times.

[aik]

38 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

No, I'm quite sure that I'm more powerful than your god.  Perhaps I should demonstrate My power to you. 

You are free to do whatever is allowed to you. Go ahead. 

[aik]

41 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

I do not consider testimonies to be evidence of supernatural power.  They are, however, evidence that people sometimes have improbable experiences that they interpret in the framework of their beliefs.  They happen in all religions, not just Christianity.

We do not speakabout other religions. We speak about your religion of denying god. So what does a improbable experience mean in the language of your religion? I do not undrrstand it. 

[walterpthefirst]

35 minutes ago, aik said:

You are free to do whatever is allowed to you. Go ahead. 

 

Astreja talks about demonstrating power, aik.

 

I demonstrated the power of evidence over you, the power which you do not have over us.

 

You asked if anyone had ever invited us to believe in Jesus and I showed you the evidence that they had.

 

What I claimed was supported by evidence.

 

Evidence is the power that holds sway in this forum.

 

Not unsupported testimony.

 

You words have no power over us because they are not supported by evidence.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Here you show your limits. When clear testimonies by which you are surrounded show you that there is a power beyond natural one, and it does what the nature cannot, and you shut your eyes and say that you do not believe that there is the power. This is your decision. This is your limits. Unfortunately. 

 

Unsupported testimony has no power in this forum.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Conclusion is corrupt here. Your assumption does not make it to be true, and does not geant any power to others. 

 

Belief without independent evidence does not make things true.