Knowledge vs belief

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, aik said:

We do not speakabout other religions. We speak about your religion of denying god. So what does a improbable experience mean in the language of your religion? I do not undrrstand it. 

 

aik, 

 

If you want to understand what Astreja means aik, you will have to speak to her as an equal.

 

You will have to treat her experiences as being as valid as yours.

 

And then, because you are both equal, there is only one way to tell who has the truth.

 

The person who's testimony is supported by independent evidence is the one who has the truth.

 

Unless your experiences are supported by independent evidence we cannot know if they are true or not.

 

Your belief that they are does not tell us if they are true or not.

 

Only evidence that is independent of you can do that. 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

11 hours ago, aik said:

Debts are spiritual, freeing from them has to be also spiritual. Do you agree? 

 

Keep your guilt, fear and shame. Nobody has a spiritual debt. That's bullshit. Your deity is imaginary. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Even if the "spiritual" debt of sin were real, I am under no obligation to accept someone else dying on my behalf without my consent or authorization.  That is a morally repulsive idea to me.  Why is your god so bloodthirsty, @aik?  Why is he unable to forgive without the shedding of blood?  I can do it; and I'm not even omnipotent. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@aik

 

You are living a life under sin right now. It is a word they attached to people that were doing things they didn't agree with. They termed all of those things "sin". If you believe in sin, sin is always held over your head. The Bible says Christ makes you free from sin but that isn't true. He only forgives your past sins and promises to help you live a sinless life with his holy spirit. Sin is still always there for you to avoid. And some churches are worse than others about what is considered sin. 

 

As a child in the south, most churches taught that interracial relationships were sin. Some that divorcing regardless of transgressions was a sin. That not wearing dresses all the time was a sin. And even that a woman cutting her hair is a sin. My mom has hair down to her butt. Why? Because a woman's hair is a glory to her and given to her for a covering.

 

1 corinthians 11

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

 

Basically anything that the preacher can convince you is sin, you're going to believe it is sin. 

 

We however have broken away from this notion of sin. There are no sins. It is part of the myth. They had to give the people something that made them feel guilty. They brainwash people into feeling guilty for something that for one didn't happen. There was no garden of Eden or a forbidden fruit. It is all a myth. Without that belief over our heads we can truly live free. 

 

It is Christianity that are the real oppressors now. Trying to keep people enthralled by their God through his fake sin. A preposterous notion that gaining knowledge of good and evil somehow constitutes eternal damnation. 

 

One would think that a God would want their people to know the difference between good and evil. Or else they would be doing evil and not even know it. 

 

Sin is the biggest lie ever told to mankind. And I no longer live under that lie. 

 

Dark Bishop

[TheRedneckProfessor]

42 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Even if the "spiritual" debt of sin were real, I am under no obligation to accept someone else dying on my behalf without my consent or authorization.  That is a morally repulsive idea to me.  Why is your god so bloodthirsty, @aik?  Why is he unable to forgive without the shedding of blood?  I can do it; and I'm not even omnipotent. 

 @aik do you remember a few days ago when I forgave you for being presumptuous and self-righteous?  I didn't ask for blood.  Nobody had to die.  I simply spoke forgiveness into existence.  See how easy it was?  Now, if your god can speak the universe into existence, why can he not forgive without bloodshed?  If he can say, "Let there be light," why can he not also say, "Let there be forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood"? Is it because your god is a murderous barbarian?  Or is it because he doesn't exist and you simply believe in myths told by bronze age goat herders?

 

Edit to Add:  Hell, moy droog, I only just now noticed that you never actually accepted my forgiveness; you just immediately changed the subject.  You know what?  That's okay.  I'm not even going to throw you into hell for all eternity or banish you from my presence in an eternal lake of everlasting hellfire and brimstone.  Because I am not a bloodthirsty barbarian.  

 

 

[Astreja]

10 hours ago, aik said:

You are free to do whatever is allowed to you. Go ahead. 

 

(steps into Her longstanding Internet role of the Springy Goddess - patron deity of the vernal equinox, chocolate, punctuation, and random equipment malfunctions)

 

I wonder what'll break down first - a coffee machine?  A vehicle?  Aik's computer? So much technology, so little time... 

[Astreja]

10 hours ago, aik said:

We do not speakabout other religions. We speak about your religion of denying god. So what does a improbable experience mean in the language of your religion? I do not undrrstand it. 

 

"Improbable" means "unlikely, but not impossible."

 

People can experience spontaneous remission from cancer.  Therefore, unexpected recovery from cancer is likely a natural occurrence rather than a divine cure.

 

Couples who have been struggling to have a child will often conceive after something in their psychosocial environment changes.  This is a known phenomenon in adoptive families - they adopt a child and then conceive one of their own, despite thinking themselves infertile.  Knowing that someone said a prayer for them may have had a similar effect.  Therefore, the birth that you described is probably not divinely assisted either.

 

Any time something is physically possible, even if it's extremely unlikely it's probably natural rather than the work of a god.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Following this discussion brings a common expression to mind. "water off a ducks back".  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Following this discussion brings a common expression to mind. "water off a ducks back".  

Autocorrect seems to assume I talk about ducks quite often.

[aik]

4 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

"Improbable" means "unlikely, but not impossible."

 

People can experience spontaneous remission from cancer.  Therefore, unexpected recovery from cancer is likely a natural occurrence rather than a divine cure.

 

Couples who have been struggling to have a child will often conceive after something in their psychosocial environment changes.  This is a known phenomenon in adoptive families - they adopt a child and then conceive one of their own, despite thinking themselves infertile.  Knowing that someone said a prayer for them may have had a similar effect.  Therefore, the birth that you described is probably not divinely assisted either.

 

Any time something is physically possible, even if it's extremely unlikely it's probably natural rather than the work of a god.

Be sure, according to the bible a fact that some action or event can be explained naturally does not exclude God's authority over it. Some miracles in some measure can be explained, and the measure is getting broad as we are getting more educated. Some miracles go against the known science, against physical and mathematical laws, and it is also from god. 

 

It is not an argument against god what you have said. 

[aik]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@aik

 

You are living a life under sin right now. It is a word they attached to people that were doing things they didn't agree with. They termed all of those things "sin". If you believe in sin, sin is always held over your head. The Bible says Christ makes you free from sin but that isn't true. He only forgives your past sins and promises to help you live a sinless life with his holy spirit. Sin is still always there for you to avoid. And some churches are worse than others about what is considered sin. 

 

As a child in the south, most churches taught that interracial relationships were sin. Some that divorcing regardless of transgressions was a sin. That not wearing dresses all the time was a sin. And even that a woman cutting her hair is a sin. My mom has hair down to her butt. Why? Because a woman's hair is a glory to her and given to her for a covering.

 

1 corinthians 11

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

 

Basically anything that the preacher can convince you is sin, you're going to believe it is sin. 

 

We however have broken away from this notion of sin. There are no sins. It is part of the myth. They had to give the people something that made them feel guilty. They brainwash people into feeling guilty for something that for one didn't happen. There was no garden of Eden or a forbidden fruit. It is all a myth. Without that belief over our heads we can truly live free. 

 

It is Christianity that are the real oppressors now. Trying to keep people enthralled by their God through his fake sin. A preposterous notion that gaining knowledge of good and evil somehow constitutes eternal damnation. 

 

One would think that a God would want their people to know the difference between good and evil. Or else they would be doing evil and not even know it. 

 

Sin is the biggest lie ever told to mankind. And I no longer live under that lie. 

 

Dark Bishop

If that concept of the sin which you have shown now is what you had when you were a pastor than i have to say you never knew what the sin is eesencially. 

 

But if it was just a trick to catch me on lies, and you twisred terms just to have what you need, then you failed my friend. Because i know in whim i believe. Unfortunately you refuee to have that desireable life which many people strive to and fail to have it. But only Jesus does give it to us. 

[aik]

15 hours ago, midniterider said:

I believe there is a prayer test you can do. Flip a coin 100 times, each time praying for heads to come up as you flip it. Then write down your results. It will probably be heads about 50 times.

I want to answer this, but first i need to know, do you have children? 

[aik]

16 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

I do not enjoy circular discussionas, and agree with Astreja that your god does not exist.  So why continue talking about something that does not exist.  Goodbye.

Why have you (administrators of the website) made a debate forum about the topic which is inconsistent because of missing a subject?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, aik said:

If that concept of the sin which you have shown now is what you had when you were a pastor than i have to say you never knew what the sin is eesencially. 

 

But if it was just a trick to catch me on lies, and you twisred terms just to have what you need, then you failed my friend. Because i know in whim i believe. Unfortunately you refuee to have that desireable life which many people strive to and fail to have it. But only Jesus does give it to us. 

I wasn't trying to twist anything. These are conclusions I have come to after deconversion. When in the faith one can't see what I'm saying. 

 

You believe sin is in every person from birth. Why? Because of what Adam did. Right? 

 

I recognize that the whole story of Adam is a myth. And I pity all of the Christians left in the faith that believe they are guilty and unworthy of heaven by the actions of a man who never existed. It is sad. 

 

The only true sins are those that cause harm to others. 

 

That bible is used every day to dictate how people should live their lives. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, aik said:

But if it was just a trick to catch me on lies, and you twisred terms just to have what you need,

I've never accused you of lies AIK. As far as I know you are honest in your heart. Your Bible is what lies. 

 

DB

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, aik said:

I want to answer this, but first i need to know, do you have children? 

 

Yes I do. 

[Astreja]

7 hours ago, aik said:

Be sure, according to the bible a fact that some action or event can be explained naturally does not exclude God's authority over it. Some miracles in some measure can be explained, and the measure is getting broad as we are getting more educated. Some miracles go against the known science, against physical and mathematical laws, and it is also from god. 

 

It is not an argument against god what you have said. 

 

Aik, here are two things to consider:

 

• The principle of parsimony (for example, Occam's Razor:  "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem," or "More things should not be used than are necessary").  If something can be explained without a god, there is no need to add a god as an explanation.
• You have made an unsupported assertion with the statement "Some miracles go against the known science, against physical and mathematical laws..."  You did not provide any examples.  If you do provide an example, you are obligated to also show how the events "go against the known science."  If you do not support your statements with testable evidence, we can (and will) just discard them.

 

As I have told you several times before, the Bible is not evidence.  There is no logical reason to assume that an uncommon event was caused by a god.  It's far, far better to say "We don't know what happened.  Maybe we should do some research and see if we can figure it out."

[aik]

1 hour ago, Astreja said:

The principle of parsimony (for example, Occam's Razor:  "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem," or "More things should not be used than are necessary").  If something can be explained without a god, there is no need to add a god as an explanation.

This is very wrong conception. I offer you to change your mind or you will stay believing that stones became frogs during evolulution. And then frogs obviously became princes and princesses. This is today's insane theory. 

[aik]

23 hours ago, midniterider said:

I believe there is a prayer test you can do. Flip a coin 100 times, each time praying for heads to come up as you flip it. Then write down your results. It will probably be heads about 50 times.

So imagine that you children talk to each other and decide to flip a coin to get the statistics about what their father will do with their request. What will he say& Yes or No? Let us find out. And I believe, haven't checked it of course, but i believe that the result will be average. Especially when the children are of a littile age. They often ask what they shouldn't. 

 

So based on the statistics they could find out that there is no father. Live your life man, a coin has shown to us that there is no father. Let us live our lives as we wish.

 

This is the filthiness of your thoughts concerning God. But if you repent and come back to him he will forgive you and accept again. 

[aik]

6 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I've never accused you of lies AIK. As far as I know you are honest in your heart. Your Bible is what lies. 

 

DB

yoiu cannot say that the bible lies if you believe in evolution theory DearBishop. Better for you not to doit againg. Otherwise you can go and look how a monkey became a handsome man. And nobody knows why only in two genders.

[aik]

14 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

"Improbable" means "unlikely, but not impossible."

 

People can experience spontaneous remission from cancer.  Therefore, unexpected recovery from cancer is likely a natural occurrence rather than a divine cure.

 

Couples who have been struggling to have a child will often conceive after something in their psychosocial environment changes.  This is a known phenomenon in adoptive families - they adopt a child and then conceive one of their own, despite thinking themselves infertile.  Knowing that someone said a prayer for them may have had a similar effect.  Therefore, the birth that you described is probably not divinely assisted either.

 

Any time something is physically possible, even if it's extremely unlikely it's probably natural rather than the work of a god.

It does not oppose God.

 

Even if we speak only about issued concerning our life on the earth here and now. Believing Jesus makes a huge peace in a human, which he is not able to have from another source, even from the bes of psychologists. And it is known that many diseases come from fears and troubles and bad psychology. So doing salvation of a human God simultineously gives him also a peaceful spirit, wisdom, temperance, love, rejoyce, which for sure corrects his health issues. And here we can see how the word of God is come true when he says Seek first the Kingdom of Heaven and his righteousness and all other things will be given to you. This is how the word of God works in particular cases. 

 

But if there is no peace in a man, some other people suggest their corrupt and temporary peace. With such peace a man for example gives up alcohol, and then starts again. But if a man abides in Christ Jesus, it is impossible for him to be additcted to alcohol. 

[aik]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

The only true sins are those that cause harm to others. 

 

Look at this. 

 

When me for example once or twice answered my mother without a peace of love, but with anger, and my children saw it, nobody is going to put me into a jail. There is no law against it. But my children will do with there mother and with my mother not the same but much more worse, they will cry on them requiring whatever they wish and trying to fix there right position before their parents. I am lack of words in english here, please excuse me. Try to understand what i am saying.

 

The childre will feel that it is a usual way of speach wih parents. My father does and I do, even better than him. They would think. And still no one is going to put them into a jail.

 

 

Then they grow up, and a parent in their life becomes a burden. And they wish to put off that burden from their shoulders. (Some children place their parents into special centres for old people. Because they have no time and no wish, and they are too lazy to care about their parents. God will judge for that sin. ) And it is visual to their children. There children in there turn leave their houses at a very youg age being sure that the parent has no right to tell them what they shall do or not. They go outside, and what will happen with them only God knows. 

 

Crime can easily come into there lives. Some people bit their parents because they never saw their parents to respect theirs one. So it is a chain of curse. Which starts from a very tiny mistake. Not a sin, but a mistake. 

 

And guess what. Who is able to stop this chain? Only Jesus, who gives us repentence, turns our hearts, our way of thinking, our values of lives, and our everything in our life, and grants wisdom and teaches us, yes God teaches us to be a human. And by it he hinders many crimes. Love covers many sins Bishop. 

 

Repent and you will be accepted again by Jesus.

 

 

[aik]

What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing; it also depends on what sort of person you are. -C. S. Lewis. (Clive Lewis) [where, deal, good]

 

What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing; it also depends on what sort of person you are. -C. S. Lewis. (aphorism.ru)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, aik said:

yoiu cannot say that the bible lies if you believe in evolution theory DearBishop. Better for you not to doit againg. Otherwise you can go and look how a monkey became a handsome man. And nobody knows why only in two genders.

https://humanorigins.si.edu/education/frequently-asked-questions

 

 

[aik]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

https://humanorigins.si.edu/education/frequently-asked-questions

 

 

I am tought about it from my childhood, man. When I was in school. Nothing new. Change the page. Start reading reliable books. This fairy tails are for kids.