Knowledge vs belief

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

I am not making claim there. I bring testimony.

 

All testimonies are claims.

 

The man who testified that he was at the metro station between 9 and 10 is claiming that he was.

 

Without independent evidence.

 

The people who testified that he was there after 10:30 are also making claims about the man. 

 

But their claims were supported by camera evidence and his claim was not.

 

So their testimony is stronger than his.

 

What he claimed to be true in his testimony was found to be false.

 

But what they claimed to be true in their testimony was found to be true.

 

The independent evidence of the camera proved it.

 

 

And so, on that basis aik, you must prove what you claim in your testimony.

 

With independent evidence.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

32 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

With independent evidence.

The bible is evidence. 

The holy spirit is evidence.

The witnesses who testified are evidence.

The guy that got prayed for and was delivered of his affliction is evidence.

 

Or so he claims, anyway...

[aik]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

 

Matthew 7

Listen, i have many verses to answer you, just for making myself clean. But i have learnt that the word of God is not for killing a man, but for his salvation. Gods word distroys lies to save those who has been lied. 

 

God wants to save you from that state where you are now. Its not obviousely the place where you should be. He wishes for you a life full of confidence with jesus. Do you want it?

[aik]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

Do you literally hear his voice?

Literally i do. Every follower of Jesus does.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

26 minutes ago, aik said:

Listen, i have many verses to answer you, just for making myself clean. But i have learnt that the word of God is not for killing a man, but for his salvation. Gods word distroys lies to save those who has been lied. 

 

God wants to save you from that state where you are now. Its not obviousely the place where you should be. He wishes for you a life full of confidence with jesus. Do you want it?

What you have are unfounded claims and unsupported assertions, neither of which I find compelling.  Thanks, but no. 

[walterpthefirst]

30 minutes ago, aik said:

Literally i do. Every follower of Jesus does.

 

So does god speak in Russian, Armenian or English when he speaks to you?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

38 minutes ago, aik said:

Listen, i have many verses to answer you, just for making myself clean. But i have learnt that the word of God is not for killing a man, but for his salvation. Gods word distroys lies to save those who has been lied. 

 

God wants to save you from that state where you are now. Its not obviousely the place where you should be. He wishes for you a life full of confidence with jesus. Do you want it?

 

I might want it if you could do as you asked the Prof to do.

 

That is, if you prove what you are testifying about with independently verifiable evidence.

 

You must live up to your own standard first, aik.

 

Otherwise, like the Prof, I'm just not interested.

[aik]

11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I might want it if you could do as you asked the Prof to do.

 

That is, if you prove what you are testifying about with independently verifiable evidence.

 

You must live up to your own standard first, aik.

 

Otherwise, like the Prof, I'm just not interested.

Fair. Unfortunately a distance.

[aik]

17 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

So does god speak in Russian, Armenian or English when he speaks to you?

 

 

A wise father speaks to his children in a language that they can understand. Where do you think this wisdom comes from? 

 

I think gods model of behaviour is in us, because we are made of his image. 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The bible is evidence. 

The holy spirit is evidence.

The witnesses who testified are evidence.

The guy that got prayed for and was delivered of his affliction is evidence.

 

Or so he claims, anyway...

 

2.1 billion pieces of evidence. That's like a mountain of evidence.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, aik said:

Literally i do. Every follower of Jesus does.

 

I was a follower of Jesus but didn't hear his voice. Most any Christian you speak with say they felt the Lord but didnt actually hear him in their head. Perhaps you have a mental health issue and need medication. 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

30 minutes ago, aik said:

A wise father speaks to his children in a language that they can understand. Where do you think this wisdom comes from? 

 

I think gods model of behaviour is in us, because we are made of his image. 

 

I can't answer your question yet, aik.

 

Because I still don't know what language god speaks to you in.

 

I offered your three possibilities and your answer didn't tell me which of those god uses to talk to you.

 

Nor do I know from you if it was none of them or something else.

 

All communication requires language - so which language does god speak to you in?

 

Please identify it so that I can know.

 

When I know I'll answer your question.

[TABA]

  

11 hours ago, aik said:

Actually, God speaks to me directly, and i speak with God directly.

 

10 hours ago, Weezer said:

Do you literally hear his voice?

 

2 hours ago, aik said:

Literally i do. Every follower of Jesus does.

 

How can you be sure that the voice you hear is coming from God, and not just generated inside your head? 

 

If every follower of Jesus hears His voice, why is there so much disagreement among Christians and Christian denominations about key teachings?

[walterpthefirst]

Can I hear the No True Scotsman Fallacy approaching?

 

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Can I hear the No True Scotsman Fallacy approaching?

 

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Aik, if you believe God is literally talking to you--- If you hear a voice talking to you that you hear with your ears,  I believe you have a delusion.  Please talk to your doctor about this.

[aik]

11 hours ago, TABA said:

How can you be sure that the voice you hear is coming from God, and not just generated inside your head? 

The problem here is very actual. Yes. At first we do many mistakes thinking that whatever i have in my head comes from god. A very dangerous thinking. So we here are like students, but at the beginning we should be very careful with claiming what is of gods. Actually we always have to be careful, but at the beginning we can be confused more. 

 

There things mentioned in the bible, which help us. First of all we have to put everything under the light of the bible. Secondly we have to have councle with elder brothers and other experienced. He who denies advices is stupid. In the couree of life we learn more and more what is of gods and what not. And some pins we accept at certain points, where we became confident that this was from god. Well, it is a school.

 

11 hours ago, TABA said:

every follower of Jesus hears His voice, why is there so much disagreement among Christians and Christian denominations about key teachings?

Disagreements have different levels. In general we are free to believe and we are not robots. In the course of it we do mistakes. Some of them are critical. So to avoid the critical ones we should be very thinkable, adviceable, humble thinking, careful in faith, self control. And if these categories are held, god will lead us. Sometimes we should be different and of different thinking. There is nothing bad to think different. Even more, it is very healthy when evefyone of us uses his experience, education etc. address an issue. Of course without humiliating others for making my point more accepted. 

 

Well it is a school taba. But i say another thing. If a believer does not here the voice of god, he is a handycap christian. Something is wrong with him. 

And of course wicked people may not hear the voice of god. It is a power granted by the father only to his children, by the hand of Jesus Christ. 

[aik]

12 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I can't answer your question yet, aik.

 

Because I still don't know what language god speaks to you in.

 

I offered your three possibilities and your answer didn't tell me which of those god uses to talk to you.

 

Nor do I know from you if it was none of them or something else.

 

All communication requires language - so which language does god speak to you in?

 

Please identify it so that I can know.

 

When I know I'll answer your question.

You can stay without knowledge walter, nobody will be upset, believe me. 

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, aik said:

You can stay without knowledge walter, nobody will be upset, believe me. 

 

You have correctly identified the problem, aik.

 

Nobody here DOES believe you and nobody here WILL believe you.

 

 

Refusing to answer simple, direct questions is the best way to cause us to not trust you.

 

You claimed that god speaks to you in person.

 

Yet you refuse to say in what language he speaks to you.

 

A very simple, direct question.

 

 

How can we trust you if you won't be honest with us?

 

You have given us two reasons to mistrust you.

 

Not supporting your claims with independent evidence and refusing to answer simple questions.

 

 

What do you propose to do to resolve this problem?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, aik said:

You can stay without knowledge walter, nobody will be upset, believe me. 

 

Oh and by the way, aik, I do have the knowledge you claim that I lack.

 

When I asked you what language god uses to speak to you, I already knew the answer.

 

I was simply waiting for you to give a honest and direct answer to my simple and direct question.

 

But you refused and you also assumed that I was ignorant.

 

So, now it's time for you to believe what I'm about to say.

 

 

People in this forum WILL be upset with you for not giving an honest answer and for treating me as ignorant.

 

Believe me.

[aik]

10 hours ago, Weezer said:

Aik, if you believe God is literally talking to you--- If you hear a voice talking to you that you hear with your ears,  I believe you have a delusion.  Please talk to your doctor about this.

Dear weezer, very much of your thoughts here. You can ask further to know how it happens.

[aik]

21 hours ago, aik said:

A wise father speaks to his children in a language that they can understand. Where do you think this wisdom comes from? 

 

I think gods model of behaviour is in us, because we are made of his image. 

@walterpthefirst this is my answer. my question here was rhetoric. Not to be abswered. I answered it myself.

[midniterider]

10 hours ago, aik said:

There things mentioned in the bible, which help us. First of all we have to put everything under the light of the bible. Secondly we have to have councle with elder brothers and other experienced. He who denies advices is stupid. In the couree of life we learn more and more what is of gods and what not. And some pins we accept at certain points, where we became confident that this was from god. Well, it is a school.

 

 

So when God speaks, you have to verify it via the bible, then after that you verify it with the church elders to make sure it is a genuine God communication? Is this to make sure you haven't just created that thought yourself? So God can give you a thought or impression that may be indistinguishable from your own thoughts. The all-powerful God that separated the Red Sea and flooded the earth speaks to you in a way that can be confusing as to the origin of the message?

 

When my wife speaks to me there is no doubt about who just spoke and where that idea came from. I hear it aloud with my ears, there is no mistaking it. I don't have to run it by a Book of What My Wife Might Say to verify it nor go visit older wiser friends to discuss whether or not what I heard came from my wife. I guess my wife's voice is more powerful than God's voice.

 

I think you and every other Christian set a very low standard when it comes to divine communication. And rightly so because in my opinion God's ideas that appear in your head are in reality your own ideas. If God actually was communicating with you, certainly you would not have to verify it with the bible and church people to make sure. Wouldn't a communication by the Almighty be self-evident? Wouldn't a message from the Supreme One be unmistakable?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aik]

20 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

So when God speaks, you have to verify it via the bible, then after that you verify it with the church elders to make sure it is a genuine God communication? Is this to make sure you haven't just created that thought yourself? So God can give you a thought or impression that may be indistinguishable from your own thoughts. The all-powerful God that separated the Red Sea and flooded the earth speaks to you in a way that can be confusing as to the origin of the message?

 

When my wife speaks to me there is no doubt about who just spoke and where that idea came from. I hear it aloud with my ears, there is no mistaking it. I don't have to run it by a Book of What My Wife Might Say to verify it nor go visit older wiser friends to discuss whether or not what I heard came from my wife. I guess my wife's voice is more powerful than God's voice.

 

I think you and every other Christian set a very low standard when it comes to divine communication. And rightly so because in my opinion God's ideas that appear in your head are in reality your own ideas. If God actually was communicating with you, certainly you would not have to verify it with the bible and church people to make sure. Wouldn't a communication by the Almighty be self-evident? Wouldn't a message from the Supreme One be unmistakable?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, aik said:

@walterpthefirst this is my answer. my question here was rhetoric. Not to be abswered. I answered it myself.

 

If you answered your own question aik, then you didn't answer mine.