How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[walterpthefirst]

If you are willing to answer two questions Ed, please tell me what event the prophet Daniel is foretelling in verse # 2.

 

Daniel  12 : 1 & 2

 

1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

And then please tell me how Daniel knew this.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter

[walterpthefirst]

Or, if we don't want to look at events that were prophesied about, but haven't yet come to pass, scripture provides us with some that have.

 

 

Acts 11 : 27 & 28

 

27 During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 

28 One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)

 

The famine of Acts 11 (biblehistory.net)

 

 

Acts 21 : 7 - 11

 

7 We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. 

8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 

9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.

10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 

11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

 

Here Agabus is foretelling Paul's arrest and subsequent handing over to the Romans.

 

 

The question arises, how did Agabus know what was going to happen in the future if god himself didn't know?   An answer is found in 2 Peter 1 : 20 & 21

 

20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 

21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

 

This confirms that god MUST know the future.  He uses his perfect knowledge of the future to inform his prophets of things to come.  Things that they could never know about by themselves.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Daniel  12 : 1 & 2

 

1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

 

The answers to the questions are as follows, Edgarcito.

 

In verse 2 the Daniel prophesies the general resurrection of the dead, an event in our future.

 

Daniel was given this information by god via the holy spirit.

 

Because god knows all things he knows every detail of the past, present and future.

 

He doesn't have to wait for an event to happen to know about it.

 

Hebrews 4 : 13

 

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

 

Time (as we know it) only exists in god's creation.

 

So, if nothing in creation is hidden from god's sight, then he must know all of time.

 

Past, present and future.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Seeing as I'm jetting off on vacation in less than 48 hours time I thought I'd use today to continue applying logic to scripture and so explain about predestination in the context of The Book of Life.

 

 

Exodus 32 : 31 - 33

31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.

32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

 

 

Psalm 69:28

May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

 

 

Luke 10 : 17 - 

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 

19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 

20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

 

 

Revelation 20 : 11 - 15

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

[walterpthefirst]

A cursory reading of the bible suggests that god is in heaven, entering the names into his book of life at the exact moment a person is saved by faith.  And then, if they later reject him, blotting their names out of his book.  In this scenario the names that go into the book and those that leave it are totally dependent on our free willed choices.  God is simply recording what happens on Earth during the count of time.

 

And then, on Judgment Day, the book of life is opened and everyone goes either to heaven or to hell, according to their own free choice.

 

But this cannot be the whole story.

Such a scenario cannot be reconciled with what the apostle Paul says in Romans about god predestining some people to be saved and others to be damned.  According to Paul god's will is sovereign and everything works and happens according to his ordained plan.  Faith is not the result human choice but of god's mercy.  He is merciful to those he chooses to lavish his mercy upon and merciless to those he does not.  If you have faith, it is because god has chosen you to have faith.  It was not your choice and was never your choice.  In this matter the choice is god's, not ours.

 

The way anyone is saved is well explained in Romans 8 : 28 - 30.

 

 

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

 

God's purposeful plan to save some and to damn others existed in his mind before creation.  This must be so because scripture tells us that god does not change his mind and logic tells us that he cannot have his mind changed by anything that happens within the count of time.

 

This plan, coupled with his all knowledge and perfect foresight enabled him to foreknow and therefore predestine those he wanted to be conformed to the image of his Son.  Then, after the creation and during the count of time, he called the ones he had predestined before time began.  Having been called to faith by god their faith is what justifies them.  And finally, those who are justified are also glorified - first on Earth during their mortal lives and later, forever in heaven.

 

So the process runs like this.

 

God plans  -  God foresees  -  God predestines -  /   - God calls - God gives faith which justifies - God glorifies on Earth. 

 

Everything to the left of the slash happens in heaven and is done solely by god.  Everything to the right happens on Earth, during the count of time, with god calling those whom he has chosen to save, conferring the gift of faith upon them, declaring them to be justified in his sight and then glorifying them.

 

Since scripture tells us this and also tells us that god knows all things, what then is he doing by entering and blotting out people's names from the Book of Life?  The only logical answer that reconciles all of scripture harmoniously is that god is not recording the free willed decisions of human beings in his book.  Instead he is recording that his will is being done.  That time and history are running in exactly the way he planned.  The Book of Life is therefore not a record of our choices but of his.  

 

But why is he doing this, you might ask?

 

The only logical reason that fits with scripture is this.  Since god already knows all things he doesn't need the Book of Life to record anything for himself.  He already knows its contents perfectly.  He knew its full contents, even before he created the universe.  So the book is not for his eyes, in case he forgets something.  In case he needs reminding of a detail.  He cannot forget anything!

 

No.  The true purpose of the Book of Life is to serve as an eternal record of god's will having been perfectly done and fulfilled.  It's not for his eyes.  It's for the eyes of the saved and the faithful angels, so that they can marvel at his powers of perfect foresight and all knowledge.  So that the saved can praise him forever for choosing them in advance and for lavishing his mercy upon them, after he bound every human being over to disobedience.

 

Therefore, the Book of Life is not an indicator of the supremacy of human free will.  It is the opposite.  It is the indicator of the supremacy of god's will over us.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[walterpthefirst]

Revelation 20 : 12 & 15

 

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

 

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, this is how logic says predestination works with regard to the day of judgement.

 

Romans 11 : 32

 

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

The dead are judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  Because god has bound everyone over to disobedience, everyone has disobeyed.  Not through their own choice, but because god has willed it to be so.

 

However, god predestined some people to receive his mercy.  Even though they have disobeyed, he has chosen to be merciful towards them.  When they are judged they are forgiven.  They are not forgiven on the basis of any decision they made but on the basis of god's decision to have mercy on them.

 

At no point is the free will of anyone respected by god.  He violates everyone's free will by choosing beforehand who he will damn and who he will save.  If humans do have free will, it is only in the very limited context of what they choose to do in their mortal lives.  But they cannot choose to freely obey god and be saved on the basis of their own free choice. 

   

That is impossible because that would overturn what god has already done - binding everyone over to disobedience.  Human will and choice cannot challenge, reverse or overturn what god has ordained.  Nothing that happens within the count of time can overrule what god has chosen before the count of time began.

 

Romans 9 : 16

 

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.