How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

28 minutes ago, Krowb said:

 

Just to throw this out there.  That is exactly the position taken by @Joshpantera and strongly opposed by @walterpthefirst.

 

here is the thread:  

 

 

12 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

In fairness to Josh, he does not believe in "god": he identifies as an atheist, even though many of his fellow Idealists do not.  If you insert "consciousness" in place of the word "god", that would be a better representation of his views.  Views with which Walter, as you point out, sharply disagrees.  Just wanted to point that out, since Josh will likely not see this himself.

 

The operative point here being that there is historical evidence demonstrating Walt arguing the exact opposite of what Edgarcito claims he is arguing.  Edgarcito is simply wrong.  Edgarcito simply does not understand what Walt is saying.

 

Or, more precisely, Edgarcito is deliberately misinterpreting what Walt is saying because he does not want to understand it.

 

I'll probably get cussed at for that; but I don't care.  This willful ignorance is simply too obvious.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 Quote it. From what I see according to Walter's explanation is that he is omnipresent in every situation. He just has already chose whether he will actually act or not. In the case of the Fall in Eden. He chose not to stop Satan, just as he allowed Satan to tempt Job. That does not mean he wasn't there. It just means he decided to let it happen because as you have said in past times. 

 

"GODS WAYS ARENT OUR WAYS AND ALL THAT MYSTERIOUS BULLSHIT"

 

Are you curious why I'm pissed with you right now?

 

I spoon fed you a counter argument. All you had to do was put on your big boy Christian pants and study some Bible. I intentionally neglected to give you scripture, just to see if you would care enough about your God and the gift he has given to you. Just enough to open the fucking book. As usual you disappointed. 

 

That is the last time I try to help you out in an argument buddy. 

 

So keep on flapping your lips and pushing your assertions and twisting peoples words. Sounds like my EX. Works for her I guess. In her mind she is right atleast. So have fun with that. 

 

DB

Time implies change DB.  Walter says God is unchanging yet builds a capsule of change where he is not.  Again how does that work?  Same thing for God as Satan....the spoonfed argument you want me to pursue.  How does God act as deception?  And you said there were many other scriptures to boot.  You're angry because the whole thing is threatening your position.

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

The operative point here being that there is historical evidence demonstrating Walt arguing the exact opposite of what Edgarcito claims he is arguing.  Edgarcito is simply wrong.  Edgarcito simply does not understand what Walt is saying.

 

Or, more precisely, Edgarcito is deliberately misinterpreting what Walt is saying because he does not want to understand it.

 

I'll probably get cussed at for that; but I don't care.  This willful ignorance is simply too obvious.

No sir, Walt was joyful that I understood, remember?  The argument was in safe hand with DB and others that "Ed finally understood predestination"  So "please hush" as my grandmother would say.

[Edgarcito]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:23 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

You have my permission to post excellent stuff like this, Prof.

 

Please continue!

Here.

[Edgarcito]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:32 PM, DarkBishop said:

Only because of your lesson. Thank you  

 

DB

Here.

[mwc]

13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

@DarkBishop  Here's an example.  Walter says God is omnipresent.  But now God has built a place where he is not omnipresent (per Walter)....where God doesn't force himself to live in a place.....where now he is not omnipresent.  How the hell does that work DB?  Walter on one hand uses "omni" as the reasons for predestination, but now there is a fucking place where God is not omnipresent so Walter can win the damn argument.  You get it now?  Intellectualism? Logic? Ego maybe????

     I thought this was obvious but maybe it is not?

 

     God must have created time otherwise it would be an uncreated thing and only god is an uncreated thing.

 

     God must control time because god is the most powerful thing and nothing controls god.

 

     If god is limited by time in any way then time is a limiting factor on the omnipotence of god which is impossible.  God must be everywhere at every time.

 

     If god is to appear before you tomorrow then god was always there, in that place and time to meet you, from the very start of the creation.  That "decision" was made eons ago, in the moment it happened as well as all points in time for that matter because god is timeless (which is to say god made this decision outside of time and in whatever eternity he truly exists within).  But to you it looks like god made a spontaneous decision to appear perhaps in answer to a prayer.

 

          mwc

 

[Edgarcito]

On 7/11/2023 at 6:41 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

No.

 

Our past, present and future are all the same to god, just as DB said.  He doesn't watch time marching forward as a passive observer.  Nor is he within time, being affected by anything within it or reacting to anything within it.

 

Because he planned and ordained everything that would happen in his creation before he created it he is not a passive observer of things that are beyond his control.  Instead, he controls everything.  Including the will of each of us.  What we perceive as us making free willed decisions in our lives is no more than the appearance of free will.

 

In reality we are all pawns, automatons acting out the pre-decided will of god to satisfy his need to be glorified.

 

And that is how predestination works.

 

God appears to interact with us in real time, but in reality he has always known in advance what each of us will do, say, think and feel - so nothing we can do, say, think and feel can surprise him.  He is not actually interacting with us or reacting to us.  He is playing us like pawns in his great game of "Let's glorify god and use the whole of creation to do it!"

 

So, nobody actually chooses Jesus by themselves.  God ordains and predestines who will go through the motions of appearing to choose Jesus.  In the same way he ordains and predestines who will go through the motions of appearing to reject Jesus.

 

Just as scripture tells us.  The information is all there.  All we have to do is open up our eyes and our minds to it.

 

Romans 8 : 28 - 30.

 

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

Predestined according to his foreknowledge.  Called, not according to our will, but according to his purpose.  His purpose.  His will.  His choice.  Not ours.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

  

 

 

And here.

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, mwc said:

     I thought this was obvious but maybe it is not?

 

     God must have created time otherwise it would be an uncreated thing and only god is an uncreated thing.

 

     God must control time because god is the most powerful thing and nothing controls god.

 

     If god is limited by time in any way then time is a limiting factor on the omnipotence of god which is impossible.  God must be everywhere at every time.

 

     If god is to appear before you tomorrow then god was always there, in that place and time to meet you, from the very start of the creation.  That "decision" was made eons ago, in the moment it happened as well as all points in time for that matter because god is timeless (which is to say god made this decision outside of time and in whatever eternity he truly exists within).  But to you it looks like god made a spontaneous decision to appear perhaps in answer to a prayer.

 

          mwc

 

+1

[◊ Krowb ◊]

24 minutes ago, TABA said:

In fairness to Josh, he does not believe in "god": he identifies as an atheist, even though many of his fellow Idealists do not.  If you insert "consciousness" in place of the word "god", that would be a better representation of his views.  Views with which Walter, as you point out, sharply disagrees.  Just wanted to point that out, since Josh will likely not see this himself.

 

@TABA - you are correct.  He takes omni to its conclusion.  Regardless of whether or not one calls that "god" or "consciousness" it is the all pervasive, everything.  As Hoffman puts it, it's the infinite set of infinite infinitites (or something very similar).

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, Krowb said:

 

@TABA - you are correct.  He takes omni to its conclusion.  Regardless of whether or not one calls that "god" or "consciousness" it is the all pervasive, everything.  As Hoffman puts it, it's the infinite set of infinite infinitites (or something very similar).

Well then someone is going to have to explain it to me differently than Walter, because I see Walter's explanation as: if it's "breathed" then it's God.  And no John, it's not intentional misunderstanding.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

+1

Ed, nothing you quoted indicates Walter said God was everything. He even talks about we are lower than God and he us far superior than us. At no time did he say EVERYTHING was god. He said God was in every time and every where. As MWC said. That he operates on an infinite time frame unlike us. If he needed to he could go back and change something he could but he doesn't because it was set in stone from the beginning to create a desired end. If he changes anything his ending could change. 

 

Do you understand?

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:12 PM, Edgarcito said:

No, I'm just actually trying to go down the road of discussion that you say I am avoiding.  So here's your or anyone's chance to talk about it.  

 

For example, good and evil.  There's no separation in the ExC mind because the argument is God created evil.  So here I am entertaining just that.  Evil would HAVE to be a manifestation of God....no separation.  How may one be solely responsible for all creation yet a part of it not be a manifestation of itself?  Hence my scenario God is doing battle with himself with humanity as a component of the battle.  

 

It's not word salad at all John.  Either you're smart enough to imagine the scenario or not.  

Here's the example that I used DB.  The ExC bunch cites God as the creator of evil....which would be omnipotent evil btw.  And God created angels, Satan.  And there is nothing that God has not created.  So either Satan is God or Satan is not.

 

Which is it in your opinion?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Well then someone is going to have to explain it to me differently than Walter, because I see Walter's explanation as: if it's "breathed" then it's God.  And no John, it's not intentional misunderstanding.  

DarkBishop has been trying, Ed; but all you want to do is get belligerent and insist that Walt is saying the exact opposite of what Walt is saying.  Four other people, besides Walt, have already told you that you're wrong and do not understand; and provided evidence to show you that you're wrong and do not understand. It is time for you to take your grandma's advice, son.  Hush.  And listen.

 

Walt has only said that god can exist, and remain changeless, both inside and outside of time, because he is omni-max.  He exists inside and outside of time, because he is omnipresent; he knows what will happen inside and outside of time, because he is omniscient; and he is in control of everything inside and outside of time, because he is omnipotent. 

 

At no point has Walt ever made the argument that god is everything or everything is god.  At no point has Walt made the argument that everything is a manifestation of god (you brought that up, and I played along to show you how stupid it was).  These are all arguments you have injected into the conversation to deliberately obfuscate what Walt is saying.  And, yes, it is intentional misunderstanding. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Here's the example that I used DB.  The ExC bunch cites God as the creator of evil....which would be omnipotent evil btw.  And God created angels, Satan.  And there is nothing that God has not created.  So either Satan is God or Satan is not.

 

Which is it in your opinion?

This is what I mean by intentional misunderstanding.  If god creates something, that automatically makes the thing god.  It's too stupid to even argue against.  This is obviously Ed just being dumb on purpose.

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Took you off hold to see if you actually answered this question.

 

What about omnipresence and CAN NOT CHANGE.   What about that Walter.  

 

Wow, I was dumb.  God changes when he would like...for Walter's argument sake.  

 

Ed,

 

I'll explain again, since you still seem to think that I'm putting forward my personal views in this thread.

 

All I am doing here is applying logic to scripture.  So, I am not the one saying that god does not change - the bible is doing that.  And I have quoted where it says this.  So, your beef isn't with me, its with the very Word of your god.  Not my god.  I don't believe in Jesus, if you recall.  Your god.  You are challenging and disputing what his Word clearly says.

 

I have demonstrated, using logic that god's abilities and characteristics do not change.  But what I have not done (and cannot do) is explain if change as we understand it within the count of time applies in the timeless eternity that was god 'before' he created heaven and earth.  I'll emphasize the important words for your benefit.

 

CHANGE AS WE UNDERSTAND IT WITHIN THE COUNT OF TIME

 

What I have said so far is that god appears to change to us, appearing to interact and react with us in real time.  But what we see him doing with us cannot be the truth of what applies in god's timeless eternity.  If he does change there in some way, then we simply cannot understand how.

 

That is why I have stuck to the biblical line - that god does not change.  I would be speculating if I went beyond that, bringing my personal views into this thread - which I won't do.    

 

Now, to your quote.

 

My example of the man building a house was not meant to be taken literally.  I used it to try and convey something that no human can understand.  Because I am not privy to what goes on in eternity I was forced to use an example which you and everyone else would be familiar with.  An example from within the count of time.

 

So, to take that example and apply it literally to eternity is to misuse it. 

 

I'm sorry that you didn't realize that Edgarcito.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

DarkBishop has been trying, Ed; but all you want to do is get belligerent and insist that Walt is saying the exact opposite of what Walt is saying.  Four other people, besides Walt, have already told you that you're wrong and do not understand; and provided evidence to show you that you're wrong and do not understand. It is time for you to take your grandma's advice, son.  Hush.  And listen.

 

Walt has only said that god can exist, and remain changeless, both inside and outside of time, because he is omni-max.  He exists inside and outside of time, because he is omnipresent; he knows what will happen inside and outside of time, because he is omniscient; and he is in control of everything inside and outside of time, because he is omnipotent. 

 

At no point has Walt ever made the argument that god is everything or everything is god.  At no point has Walt made the argument that everything is a manifestation of god (you brought that up, and I played along to show you how stupid it was).  These are all arguments you have injected into the conversation to deliberately obfuscate what Walt is saying.  And, yes, it is intentional misunderstanding. 

Then he needs to correct his logic. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Obviously the created is not the creator.  A song is not a musician.  You understand this, Ed.  Quit trying to confuse the issue.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is what I mean by intentional misunderstanding.  If god creates something, that automatically makes the thing god.  It's too stupid to even argue against.  This is obviously Ed just being dumb on purpose.

Then what parts are predestined? All?  Some?

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter is offering a pantheistic philosophy/God RS.  God is everything....our environment, our nature, the snake's nature, angels, you name it.  In that offering, nothing can change because it's all God and God never changes i.e., predestination.  

 

So I asked him how then are things created "lower"....to which his response was....."in time". So apparently outside of time God doesn't change, but inside of time, the unchangeable God changes.  

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

 

No.

 

Walter is not offering a pantheistic philosophy.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Obviously the created is not the creator.  A song is not a musician.  You understand this, Ed.  Quit trying to confuse the issue.

Then you are claiming that YOU know the predestined parts and none of the rest of us do.  That what you are saying?

 

The mods at ExC knows that Adam and Eve were predestined/controlled by God?

[Edgarcito]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Obviously the created is not the creator.  A song is not a musician.  You understand this, Ed.  Quit trying to confuse the issue.

I believe that myself but can also rationalize if the creation is all God breathed, then it's God.  How could it NOT be.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Essentially, our existence is a bubble of "time/change" that God created of Himself.  

 

Walter is adamant that God doesn't change, yet here is God in two forms....omni outside of time, and changing in time. (Yet Walter professes that God doesn't change in time for the sake of the predestination argument).

 

Given the two conflict LOGICALLY, we need clarification.  

 

Once again Edgarcito, I am applying logic to scripture.

 

Scripture that says god does not change.

 

God's Word is adamant that god does not change.

 

I am running with that concept and applying logic to it.

 

I hope that you take accept that I am not promoting my views here.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

@DarkBishop  Here's an example.  Walter says God is omnipresent.  But now God has built a place where he is not omnipresent (per Walter)....where God doesn't force himself to live in a place.....where now he is not omnipresent.  How the hell does that work DB?  Walter on one hand uses "omni" as the reasons for predestination, but now there is a fucking place where God is not omnipresent so Walter can win the damn argument.  You get it now?  Intellectualism? Logic? Ego maybe????

 

You have misused my example by taking it literally.

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Once again Edgarcito, I am applying logic to scripture.

 

Scripture that says god does not change.

 

God's Word is adamant that god does not change.

 

I am running with that concept and applying logic to it.

 

I hope that you take accept that I am not promoting my views here.

You've said that several times.  I'm faithful with regard to scripture that I don't completely understand.  It actually says that we won't.  So either you have an opinion or your mantra is to aggravate....or that you have an opinion.  Logic is an opinion.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

You have misused my example by taking it literally.

 

Wow, I should have known not to take it literally.  I should have logically surmised your bs...