How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[walterpthefirst]

Put yourself in Esau's place for a minute Edgarcito and see if you think god was fair and just and good toward you.

 

 

Before you were born or had done anything good or bad god hated you.  Despite your efforts and desires to serve god and do his will, he still hates you.  You pray to him saying, "Why do you still blame me?" but he still hates you.  You ask him, "How do I resist your will?" but he still hates you.

 

He replies to you, "Who are you to talk back to me like this, Edgarcito?  What I have created has no right to question me, their creator!"  

 

God continues. "I am your creator and so I have the right to do with you as I please.  If I create some people for heaven and others for hell, they have no right to question my decisions.  And nor do you, Edgarcito"

 

"I created you for destruction because that was my will.  My will is sovereign, not yours, Edgarcito."

 

 

I'm not asking you any questions that you have to answer, Edgarcito.  So the questions below are rhetorical ones - to get you to think what it would be like to be on the receiving end of god's wrath.  To have your free will violated by him and to have no right of appeal and no come back.   Your fate and your ultimate destination were sealed and fixed by god before you were born.

 

To live, day by day in the fearful expectation of eternal hellfire.   And to go to sleep at night, not knowing if you will wake up again on Earth or in front of god's Judgment Seat at the end of days.  Then to be thrown into the lake of fire and suffer terrible agonies forever.  And while writhing in torment there, to know that this was god's decision and not yours.

 

Now to the questions.

 

If god violated your free will like this, would you still believe that he was perfectly fair and perfectly just toward you?

 

If he refused you the right of appeal, would you still believe that he was being perfectly good toward you?

 

If he had made his mind up about you before you were born, would you still believe that he was being perfectly loving towards you?

 

Please think on these questions.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Put yourself in Esau's place for a minute Edgarcito and see if you think god was fair and just and good toward you.

 

 

Before you were born or had done anything good or bad god hated you.  Despite your efforts and desires to serve god and do his will, he still hates you.  You pray to him saying, "Why do you still blame me?" but he still hates you.  You ask him, "How do I resist your will?" but he still hates you.

 

He replies to you, "Who are you to talk back to me like this, Edgarcito?  What I have created has no right to question me, their creator!"  

 

God continues. "I am your creator and so I have the right to do with you as I please.  If I create some people for heaven and others for hell, they have no right to question my decisions.  And nor do you, Edgarcito"

 

"I created you for destruction because that was my will.  My will is sovereign, not yours, Edgarcito."

 

 

I'm not asking you any questions that you have to answer, Edgarcito.  So the questions below are rhetorical ones - to get you to think what it would be like to be on the receiving end of god's wrath.  To have your free will violated by him and to have no right of appeal and no come back.   Your fate and your ultimate destination was sealed and fixed by god before you were born.

 

To live, day by day in the fearful expectation of eternal hellfire.   And to go to sleep at night, not knowing if you will wake up again on Earth or in front of god's Judgment Seat at the end of days.  Then to be thrown into the lake of fire and suffer terrible agonies forever.  And while writhing in torment there, to know that this was god's decision and not yours.

 

Now to the questions.

 

If god violated your free will like this, would you still believe that he was perfectly fair and perfectly just toward you?

 

If he refused you the right of appeal, would you still believe that he was being perfectly good toward you?

 

If he had made his mind up about you before you were born, would you still believe that he was being perfectly loving towards you?

 

Please think on these questions.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

Just gonna quote this so Ed can see it. Good point walter. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

Thanks for the  intervention DB.  Several things. As we were discussing, the snake temps Eve.  Then in James it says if it's temptation, then it's not God.  And then I'm sure without unblocking Walter, it's "well that's not right Ed, that's not what it says".  And then right back to "it's all God, therefore God."  So God is the snake and God tempts us and God predestines us etc.  I don't agree.

 

And if I'm betting, he hasn't responded to: If everything and all are manifestations of God and God never changes, then how may those manifestations be made lower.

 

To the Eden thing...between you and me.  I understand Eden could easily been on Earth....my point was that the conditions were different than a place on Earth now.  

 

Thanks.  I'm likely not going to unblock Walter as there is no good compromise here.  Thanks again.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:37 AM, Edgarcito said:

So God in his unchanging nature was deceitful through Satan in the Garden?  That what your are saying?

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Ok Ed, right here is where you got close. For all this predestination theology to work God would have not only had to deceive through Satan but at times knowingly lie, deceive, and commit evil acts. All in favor of his predestined and set in stone past present and future so that everything happened like he wanted it to. 

 

The bible says he can't do any of that. There are many scriptures that indicate this. If it were me. That is the point I would try to argue from right now. 

 

DB

 

Did you catch this post Ed? Trying to give you some ammo here. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

21 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

What Is the Omnipotence of God? Definition and Bible Meaning (christianity.com)

 

Our English word “omnipotence” originates from Latin. “Omni” means all, and “potent” means power. Thus, when we speak of the omnipotence of God, we declare Him All Powerful or All Mighty.

Three “omnis” of God credit to Him, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. These three acknowledge Him as All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Present (or everywhere present). All three involve the other two as a whole and are inseparable attributes of God.

 

 

Why is this so?  Why are god's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence inseparable?  I will explain.

 

If god were not omnipresent that would mean that there was a location, somewhere in the universe, where god is not.  Not being present there would mean that he wouldn't have the ability to know everything about that location.  So, by not being omnipresent, he ceases to be omniscient.  And then, because he isn't at this location and doesn't know everything about it he couldn't exercise complete power (omnipotence) in that location, over that location.

 

This is what King David was alluding to in Psalm 139.

 

Scripture also tells us that god is eternal and that time itself was created by god.  Being its creator, god is the master of time.  Time is not not god's master.  If we take the analogy of a man building a house, once it is complete the man is not obliged by the house to live within it.  The man is the one with the ability to create, not the house.  The man is the one with the ability to choose, not the house.  The house is just something made by the man to serve him and it has no power over how the man chooses to live.  

 

So, if we say that god is not greater than and master of time, we are demoting god and promoting time, making it the master.  This is clearly contrary to scripture.  A god who is forced to live within time by time itself would be a slave and a servant to it, unable to be omnipotent.  After all, if god is limited to functioning within the count of time, who has the omnipotence?  The all power?  God or time? 

 

Not god.  Time would be the true master of all things, including god.  

 

Therefore, since the idea of god being limited to working within time is both anti-biblical and contrary to the logic of scripture, we can discard this idea.  

 

God must therefore be eternal and timeless, just as the bible says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also Ed. This is the post you missed of Walter's where he drove his point home after the thread was unlocked. 

 

Thought you might want to see where he was headed before the thread got locked. Its a good case for predestination. 

 

DB

[RankStranger]

5 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Put yourself in Esau's place for a minute Edgarcito and see if you think god was fair and just and good toward you.

 

 

Before you were born or had done anything good or bad god hated you.  Despite your efforts and desires to serve god and do his will, he still hates you.  You pray to him saying, "Why do you still blame me?" but he still hates you.  You ask him, "How do I resist your will?" but he still hates you.

 

He replies to you, "Who are you to talk back to me like this, Edgarcito?  What I have created has no right to question me, their creator!"  

 

God continues. "I am your creator and so I have the right to do with you as I please.  If I create some people for heaven and others for hell, they have no right to question my decisions.  And nor do you, Edgarcito"

 

"I created you for destruction because that was my will.  My will is sovereign, not yours, Edgarcito."

 

 

I'm not asking you any questions that you have to answer, Edgarcito.  So the questions below are rhetorical ones - to get you to think what it would be like to be on the receiving end of god's wrath.  To have your free will violated by him and to have no right of appeal and no come back.   Your fate and your ultimate destination were sealed and fixed by god before you were born.

 

To live, day by day in the fearful expectation of eternal hellfire.   And to go to sleep at night, not knowing if you will wake up again on Earth or in front of god's Judgment Seat at the end of days.  Then to be thrown into the lake of fire and suffer terrible agonies forever.  And while writhing in torment there, to know that this was god's decision and not yours.

 

Now to the questions.

 

If god violated your free will like this, would you still believe that he was perfectly fair and perfectly just toward you?

 

If he refused you the right of appeal, would you still believe that he was being perfectly good toward you?

 

If he had made his mind up about you before you were born, would you still believe that he was being perfectly loving towards you?

 

Please think on these questions.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

I like this post 

[Edgarcito]

On 7/12/2023 at 2:47 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

The same way that the house the man builds and the man himself are not the same thing.

 

As I said earlier, just because a man builds a house, he is not then forced to live within it.

 

In a similar way, god created time (where all change take places) but he is not forced by time to live within it.

 

Time is a constructed thing, like the house.

 

And both the house and time are lower manifestations of the man and of god.

Took you off hold to see if you actually answered this question.

 

What about omnipresence and CAN NOT CHANGE.   What about that Walter.  

 

Wow, I was dumb.  God changes when he would like...for Walter's argument sake.  

[RankStranger]

Don't let me side-track the discussion, but I'd like to comment on one point Edgar:  Are you saying that God "can not change"?  Or are you saying that the bible says that God "can not change"?  The distinction is important to me.

[Edgarcito]

28 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Don't let me side-track the discussion, but I'd like to comment on one point Edgar:  Are you saying that God "can not change"?  Or are you saying that the bible says that God "can not change"?  The distinction is important to me.

Walter is offering a pantheistic philosophy/God RS.  God is everything....our environment, our nature, the snake's nature, angels, you name it.  In that offering, nothing can change because it's all God and God never changes i.e., predestination.  

 

So I asked him how then are things created "lower"....to which his response was....."in time". So apparently outside of time God doesn't change, but inside of time, the unchangeable God changes.  

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter is offering a pantheistic philosophy/God RS.  God is everything....our environment, our nature, the snake's nature, angels, you name it.  In that offering, nothing can change because it's all God and God never changes i.e., predestination.  

 

So I asked him how then are things created "lower"....to which his response was....."in time". So apparently outside of time God doesn't change, but inside of time, the unchangeable God changes.  

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

 

That clarifies things a bit.  My idea wasn't relevant to this particular discussion... it'll come up elsewhere.

 

Thanks and carry on

[mwc]

31 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter is offering a pantheistic philosophy/God RS.  God is everything....our environment, our nature, the snake's nature, angels, you name it.  In that offering, nothing can change because it's all God and God never changes i.e., predestination.  

     I don't believe Walter is saying god is everything but more more nuanced god must be everywhere that there is a "thing" (which can include what we consider nothing like a void of space, blackhole, etc.).  If there's a place to be then god must be in that place.

 

31 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So I asked him how then are things created "lower"....to which his response was....."in time". So apparently outside of time God doesn't change, but inside of time, the unchangeable God changes.  

     I thought created things were the "lower?"  Like the example of a man building a house?  It's his creation but not his equal.  It's "lower" no matter how high the quality.

 

           mwc

 

[Edgarcito]

The unchanging, omnipresent God builds a manifestation of himself outside of his timelessness, "in time" so that he may play out a predestined scenario where he allows himself to become lower, to change, and somehow is not omnipresent, sub omni, anymore because that would mean no change in the changing house.   Then battles himself though various characters until he's finished playing and takes some back to outside time, and throws the rest in the burn barrel.  

 

I think I got it.  Thanks Walter.  

[Edgarcito]

16 minutes ago, mwc said:

     I don't believe Walter is saying god is everything but more more nuanced god must be everywhere that there is a "thing" (which can include what we consider nothing like a void of space, blackhole, etc.).  If there's a place to be then god must be in that place.

 

     I thought created things were the "lower?"  Like the example of a man building a house?  It's his creation but not his equal.  It's "lower" no matter how high the quality.

 

           mwc

 

That's not what he's saying. It's all God, therefore God.  It's all set in God-stone because it 's all God.  Creation, Adam and Eve, Angels, us, them, aliens.  There is no change because God doesn't change.  Period.  There is no subjection because you are God.

 

God is the good in the Bible, the evil, the deception, the truth....it's all God.  This is Walter's position.

[Edgarcito]

ALERT ALERT ALERT.

 

When Walter comes back, he will say that I don't understand this and offer another damn excuse.

[Edgarcito]

Essentially, our existence is a bubble of "time/change" that God created of Himself.  

 

Walter is adamant that God doesn't change, yet here is God in two forms....omni outside of time, and changing in time. (Yet Walter professes that God doesn't change in time for the sake of the predestination argument).

 

Given the two conflict LOGICALLY, we need clarification.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

42 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Essentially, our existence is a bubble of "time/change" that God created of Himself.  

 

Walter is adamant that God doesn't change, yet here is God in two forms....omni outside of time, and changing in time. (Yet Walter professes that God doesn't change in time for the sake of the predestination argument).

 

Given the two conflict LOGICALLY, we need clarification.  

You aren't getting it. That really isn't what he is saying. It isn't that Everything is God. But that God has already seen everything that has been or ever will be and has decided what would happen. That is set in stone and unchanging. And he is just going through time forcing his will and plan on all of creation. 

 

Which means there is no choice or free will. And walter proved it all from the Bible. The most disappointing thing here is you could make a counter argument if you tried. But instead you just want to whine and bitch about Walter said this, walter said that, walter is just gonna tell me I don't understand (and you dont). 

 

I don't know how your thought process works. You say your a chemist or something right? Do you mean like a "Breaking Bad" Chemist? Because that would explain a few things. 

 

DB

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

14 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

You aren't getting it. That really isn't what he is saying. It isn't that Everything is God. But that God has already seen everything that has been or ever will be and has decided what would happen. That is set in stone and unchanging. And he is just going through time forcing his will and plan on all of creation. 

 

Which means there is no choice or free will. And walter proved it all from the Bible. The most disappointing thing here is you could make a counter argument if you tried. But instead you just want to whine and bitch about Walter said this, walter said that, walter is just gonna tell me I don't understand (and you dont). 

 

I don't know how your thought process works. You say your a chemist or something right? Do you mean like a "Breaking Bad" Chemist? Because that would explain a few things. 

 

DB

 

 

 

Sorry DB, it is what's he's saying.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Sorry DB, it is what's he's saying.  

Then maybe you could quote where that is because I obviously missed it. 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Then maybe you could quote where that is because I obviously missed it. 

Look, he's saying everything created is by default God....if it is made, right down to the subatomic particle, then it is God.  And since God cannot change, the particle, or us, or an angel, or cherubim, or Satan, is not anything other than God himself as those figures.  God is us, God is nature, God is the good, God is the bad, God is the deception, God is the truth, in that God cannot change.....it's all God.  And we are predestined in that unchange to be the outcome that is his will and manifestation thereof. 

 

Please go back and read anything that he has stated and see of it conflicts with what I have just said. 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

ALERT ALERT ALERT.

 

When Walter comes back, he will say that I don't understand this and offer another damn excuse.

 

I like this post 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Look, he's saying everything created is by default God....if it is made, right down to the subatomic particle, then it is God.  And since God cannot change, the particle, or us, or an angel, or cherubim, or Satan, is not anything other than God himself as those figures.  God is us, God is nature, God is the good, God is the bad, God is the deception, God is the truth, in that God cannot change.....it's all God.  And we are predestined in that unchange to be the outcome that is his will and manifestation thereof. 

 

Please go back and read anything that he has stated and see of it conflicts with what I have just said. 

 

Just to throw this out there.  That is exactly the position taken by @Joshpantera and strongly opposed by @walterpthefirst.

 

here is the thread:  

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Look, he's saying everything created is by default God....if it is made, right down to the subatomic particle, then it is God.  And since God cannot change, the particle, or us, or an angel, or cherubim, or Satan, is not anything other than God himself as those figures.  God is us, God is nature, God is the good, God is the bad, God is the deception, God is the truth, in that God cannot change.....it's all God.  And we are predestined in that unchange to be the outcome that is his will and manifestation thereof. 

That is not what I fucking asked. I asked you to quote where he said that. Not to reassert your misunderstanding without providing proof. I haven't seen where he has said that. So if he did and you know where it is at. Quote it. 

 

All I see is that God has predestined everything to happen as it is going to happen. With scripture to prove it. He has decieved and manipulated humans toward the end of his "great plan" and that you do not have choice or free will. 

 

He has taken the stance of predestination. That is all. 

 

You have taken the stance of free will and can't provide scripture to support your claim. Pretty GodDamn pathetic  

 

I do not understand why spiritually Lazy ass Christians still piss me off so much. But they do. And your the king of shit christians in this forum. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

On 7/12/2023 at 2:47 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

The same way that the house the man builds and the man himself are not the same thing.

 

As I said earlier, just because a man builds a house, he is not then forced to live within it.

 

In a similar way, god created time (where all change take places) but he is not forced by time to live within it.

 

Time is a constructed thing, like the house.

 

And both the house and time are lower manifestations of the man and of god.

@DarkBishop  Here's an example.  Walter says God is omnipresent.  But now God has built a place where he is not omnipresent (per Walter)....where God doesn't force himself to live in a place.....where now he is not omnipresent.  How the hell does that work DB?  Walter on one hand uses "omni" as the reasons for predestination, but now there is a fucking place where God is not omnipresent so Walter can win the damn argument.  You get it now?  Intellectualism? Logic? Ego maybe????

[TABA]

11 minutes ago, Krowb said:

That is exactly the position taken by @Joshpantera and strongly opposed by @walterpthefirst.

 

here is the thread:  

 

 

In fairness to Josh, he does not believe in "god": he identifies as an atheist, even though many of his fellow Idealists do not.  If you insert "consciousness" in place of the word "god", that would be a better representation of his views.  Views with which Walter, as you point out, sharply disagrees.  Just wanted to point that out, since Josh will likely not see this himself.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

@DarkBishop  Here's an example.  Walter says God is omnipresent.  But now God has built a place where he is not omnipresent....where God doesn't force himself to live in a place.....where now he is not omnipresent.  How the hell does that work DB?  Walter on one hand uses "omni" as the reasons for predestination, but now there is a fucking place where God is not omnipresent so Walter can win the damn argument.  You get it now?  Intellectualism? Logic? Ego maybe????

 Quote it. From what I see according to Walter's explanation is that he is omnipresent in every situation. He just has already chose whether he will actually act or not. In the case of the Fall in Eden. He chose not to stop Satan, just as he allowed Satan to tempt Job. That does not mean he wasn't there. It just means he decided to let it happen because as you have said in past times. 

 

"GODS WAYS ARENT OUR WAYS AND ALL THAT MYSTERIOUS BULLSHIT"

 

Are you curious why I'm pissed with you right now?

 

I spoon fed you a counter argument. All you had to do was put on your big boy Christian pants and study some Bible. I intentionally neglected to give you scripture, just to see if you would care enough about your God and the gift he has given to you. Just enough to open the fucking book. As usual you disappointed. 

 

That is the last time I try to help you out in an argument buddy. 

 

So keep on flapping your lips and pushing your assertions and twisting peoples words. Sounds like my EX. Works for her I guess. In her mind she is right atleast. So have fun with that. 

 

DB