How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[RankStranger]

12 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Damn sure does Walter.  He punishes them and remove them from Eden.  He wipes out most of creation but not all.  He suffers rather than sending us all to Hell.  And those are just the three biggies in the discussion.  This ain't rocket science here sir.

 

I like this one too 

[Edgarcito]

31 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Not thy will, but mine, be done.

 

Proceed, please, Walt.  If Ed no longer wishes to participate, that is within his free will.  But others might benefit from your efforts. 

 

The Prof thy Mod hath spoken. 

I’m not above trying to understand this, I just have no clue what he’s doing and am tired of following fragments of the alleged answer that I don’t agree with and then won’t move forward except proposing another fragment.  Then, “do you want me to explain Ed?”  Are you kidding me?  Am I on Candid Camera?  So yeah, continue w someone who can endure the full disclosure that might live that long..

[Edgarcito]

In the beginning Adam and Eve and God existed together.  It’s apparent that Adam and Eve weren’t violating any of the conditions that was God.  How could God violate his own conditions through Adam and Eve if he never changes.  

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Do you just not get and example.  The room was everything God covers, and I INCLUDED the understanding beyond ours.  Do you just not do examples?  

 

Never mind Walter.  I'm tired of the attempts at conversation.  Have the Prof shut it down.  Thanks for the effort.

 

I cannot 'get' this example Ed because it's just wrong.

 

Omniscience only applies to everything that god created.

 

Everything.

 

Not to any limited part of his creation.

 

Your examples have to conform to the proper meaning of the word in question.

 

Omniscience means knowledge of everything that exists.

 

 

Unlike you, I'm not using my own personal interpretation of what the word means.

 

I'm using the standard Christian understanding of that word, as per scripture.

 

I'm also holding to the standard dictionary definition of that word.

 

 

If we cannot agree on this then, as I warned, you will never understand what I have to say about predestination.

 

If you want to understand that you have to accept the standard definition of omniscience.

 

And the standard definitions of omnipotence and omnipresence too.

 

 

Btw, this is not me trying to enforce my will upon you, ok?

 

Earlier I said that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, so I don't hold to or believe the standard Christian viewpoint.

 

Therefore I'm asking you to agree to the standard definitions used by your fellow Christians.

 

Not mine.

 

Are we clear on that?

 

 

So, its not me you are at odds with.

 

It's your fellow Christians and its also scripture that you are disagreeing with. 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

In the beginning Adam and Eve and God existed together.  It’s apparent that Adam and Eve weren’t violating any of the conditions that was God.  How could God violate his own conditions through Adam and Eve if he never changes.  

 

Because it was always his will to do so.

 

Remember Romans 8 : 20?

 

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope...

 

By god's eternal and unchanging will.

 

Which comes from his eternal and unchanging abilities and nature.

 

Which, as I demonstrated, cannot change.

 

 

Perhaps you should ask yourself this question, Ed?

 

The bible says that god never changes his mind.

 

Why do you have a problem with this when billions of other Christians don't?

 

[walterpthefirst]

Perhaps doing these thing would help you, Ed?

 

Stop looking at what happened in Eden and start thinking what it must mean for god to be eternal.

 

Stop thinking that human decisions happening in time cause god to change his mind...

 

...and start thinking what it must mean for god to know all of these human decisions in advance.

 

Ask yourself why he should change his mind within the count of time when he already knew what was going to happen.

 

Ask yourself how he could plan anything in advance if he didn't know in advance what humans would do?

 

Ask yourself what it means to know Satan's thoughts and plans and actions in advance.

 

Ask yourself what it means if it was always god will to let angels and humans act out their intentions, even though he knew their thoughts and intentions in advance.

 

Try to see things from god's point of view of knowing everything.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Or, try this.

 

I'm a fan of 20th century naval warfare.  So I'm interested in the great sea battles of WW1 and WW2.

 

As we know from history, the US forces in the Pacific had broken the Japanese codes and were able to trap the enemy fleet at Midway by sending them a dummy message about a faulty fresh water condenser on Midway island.

 

This is what happens when you know your enemies moves in advance.  You can make plans to stop them. 

 

So, because god knows everything he knew Satan's thoughts and intentions in advance.  Even while Satan was an archangel and before he rebelled against god.  Even when god alone existed, before he created heaven and earth he knew everything that Satan was going to do and think. 

 

Therefore, this prompts the question... 'If god knew in advance that Satan planned to harm Adam and Eve, why did he do nothing to prevent it?'

 

When I put you in god's place, in your garden in Texas, you said that you'd kill the rattlesnake to stop it harming your children.

 

So, why didn't god do that?  You are just a man, with none of god's advantages of perfect all knowledge, perfect foresight and total power.  Yet you would do what god did not choose to do.  Why is that?

 

The answer why god did nothing to protect Adam and Eve from Satan is found in Romans 8 : 20.  It was his will to let Satan harm them and for his entire creation to be overthrown and subjected to sin and death.  Not Satan's will and not Adam's will and not Eve's will.

 

God's will.  To bring glory to himself through Jesus Christ.

 

That is what scripture says.  That is not what I am saying.  That is not my personal interpretation.  I don't believe this stuff, remember?  I'm just calling it as the bible writes it.

 

And the bible also says that god does not change his mind.  So god could not have been reacting to events in Eden as they happened.  The bible says that there is nothing that god is unaware of in advance.  So, he couldn't be reacting and changing his mind in real time, in response to the actions of Satan, Adam and Eve.

 

(Remember the broken Japanese codes and the battle of Midway?)

 

Doing that would violate what scripture says about him never changing his mind and it would also violate what the bible says about god knowing everything in advance.

 

Logic and scripture both agree that god must have DECIDED IN ADVANCE to let events play out in Eden.  To let Satan tempt Eve.  To let Adam and Eve suffer sin, exile and death.  To let the whole of creation be subject to sin and death.  

 

It was god's will and god's decision to cause all of this suffering by not preventing it when he had the knowledge and power to do so.

 

That is not how I'm personally choosing to interpret scripture.  That's what the bible says.

 

 

Please think on this.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I’m not above trying to understand this, I just have no clue what he’s doing and am tired of following fragments of the alleged answer that I don’t agree with and then won’t move forward except proposing another fragment.  Then, “do you want me to explain Ed?”  Are you kidding me?  Am I on Candid Camera?  So yeah, continue w someone who can endure the full disclosure that might live that long..

The things in life that matter the most to us, the things that end up having profound meaning and impact, are often the things that cost us great personal effort--the victories hard-fought and won, the triumphs of will and perseverance.  Knowledge, epiphany, and understanding are no different.  Putting in the effort to understand how each piece of information works, how each piece fits with the others, and how they all build upon each other to create the whole: this is how you will build for yourself an understanding much more profound, meaningful, and impacting than if the information is just handed to you all at once with no instruction on how to decipher it. 

 

Perhaps Walt's technique could be improved; and perhaps this gives you a convenient excuse not to put in the effort required.  But, knowing you for as long as I have, arguing with you as many times as I have, I think the real reason you'd prefer Walt just put it all on the table at once is not so that you can see how it all fits together.  Rather, it's so that you can see how to pick it all apart.

 

I'm not sure such an approach will yield any other result than what you already have: half-formed beliefs based largely on stubbornness and raw emotion, rather than a more profound understanding based on intellectual honesty and effort.  If you're content with that, far be it from me to denigrate it.

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Because it was always his will to do so.

 

Remember Romans 8 : 20?

 

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope...

 

By god's eternal and unchanging will.

 

Which comes from his eternal and unchanging abilities and nature.

 

Which, as I demonstrated, cannot change.

 

 

Perhaps you should ask yourself this question, Ed?

 

The bible says that god never changes his mind.

 

Why do you have a problem with this when billions of other Christians don't?

 

Many many many many many people do not share that view of Romans 8:20.  You get that, right????

 

Then your entire point hinges on that interpretation, does it not?  I don't share that interpretation as I have stated numerous times.  So yes, I'm not going to "see" your point nor agree with it nor think it's gospel.  Let's just stop right there.

 

I'm sorry you can't scale God's view down to one room, not my problem.  

 

So yes, let's just agree to stop.  Thanks.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The things in life that matter the most to us, the things that end up having profound meaning and impact, are often the things that cost us great personal effort--the victories hard-fought and won, the triumphs of will and perseverance.  Knowledge, epiphany, and understanding are no different.  Putting in the effort to understand how each piece of information works, how each piece fits with the others, and how they all build upon each other to create the whole: this is how you will build for yourself an understanding much more profound, meaningful, and impacting than if the information is just handed to you all at once with no instruction on how to decipher it. 

 

Perhaps Walt's technique could be improved; and perhaps this gives you a convenient excuse not to put in the effort required.  But, knowing you for as long as I have, arguing with you as many times as I have, I think the real reason you'd prefer Walt just put it all on the table at once is not so that you can see how it all fits together.  Rather, it's so that you can see how to pick it all apart.

 

I'm not sure such an approach will yield any other result than what you already have: half-formed beliefs based largely on stubbornness and raw emotion, rather than a more profound understanding based on intellectual honesty and effort.  If you're content with that, far be it from me to denigrate it.

Well then add to his inept method so I might understand there genius rather than point fingers.  

[walterpthefirst]

And yet, many people do.

 

Irresistible grace - Wikipedia

 

Calvinism - Wikipedia

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Many many many many many people do not share that view of Romans 8:20.  You get that, right????

 

Then your entire point hinges on that interpretation, does it not?  I don't share that interpretation as I have stated numerous times.  So yes, I'm not going to "see" your point nor agree with it nor think it's gospel.  Let's just stop right there.

 

I'm sorry you can't scale God's view down to one room, not my problem.  

 

So yes, let's just agree to stop.  Thanks.

 

If the Prof want's me to continue to explain about predestination and how an eternal god can appear to interact and react with humans in real time, then I'll do so.

 

If you want out, fine.

[walterpthefirst]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Many many many many many people do not share that view of Romans 8:20.  You get that, right????

 

Then your entire point hinges on that interpretation, does it not?  I don't share that interpretation as I have stated numerous times.  So yes, I'm not going to "see" your point nor agree with it nor think it's gospel.  Let's just stop right there.

 

I'm sorry you can't scale God's view down to one room, not my problem.  

 

So yes, let's just agree to stop.  Thanks.

 

And No, my entire point does not hinge on my interpretation of that one verse, Ed.

 

How many times have I explained to you that I do not hold to these beliefs and so this is not my interpretation?

 

This is the interpretation of Irresistible Grace, carried through to its logical conclusion.

 

An interpretation held to by millions of Christians.

 

 

And once again, No, my entire point does not hinge on just Romans 8 : 20.

 

There are all those other verses that I quoted about god's mind not changing, his eternal nature not changing and him being the same forever.

 

 

And I'm sorry that you can't see that omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence do not scale down.

 

They either apply to all of creation or they do not apply at all.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

If you really are on your way out Ed, here's something else for you.

 

 

The American decoding of the Japanese codes meant that they could know what the enemy was doing in advance and make plans accordingly.  But it would make no sense for the US commanders to carry on as normal once they knew what the Japanese plans were.

 

It would make no sense for them to do nothing until the Japanese attacked and only then react. 

It would also make no sense for them to allow the Japanese attack to succeed.

It would then make even less sense for the US commanders to then blame their own men for the attack.

 

And it would make no sense at all for the US commanders to refuse to bury the dead, treat the injured, repair the damage, and admit responsibility - especially when all of these things were their fault and their responsibility.  Their fault and their responsibility for not acting on information they already knew about the enemy.

 

 

But god did all of the above.

 

He carried on as normal, making no plans to stop the imminent disaster he knew was coming and the suffering that would follow.  He blamed Adam and Eve and Satan when, all along, it was his own will (not theirs) to overthrow creation.  He knew everything that was going to happen and just sat there with folded arms and let it happen.  He caused this suffering and even though he had the responsibility and power to put it right, he let the victims of his own plan of self-glorification suffer and continue to suffer.

 

So, if you really are quitting this thread Edgarcito, I'll ask you the $10 million dollar question - which I have no expectation you will have the honesty to answer.

 

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

19 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

If you really are on your way out Ed, here's something else for you.

 

 

The American decoding of the Japanese codes meant that they could know what the enemy was doing in advance and make plans accordingly.  But it would make no sense for the US commanders to carry on as normal once they knew what the Japanese plans were.

 

It would make no sense for them to do nothing until the Japanese attacked and only then react. 

It would also make no sense for them to allow the Japanese attack to succeed.

It would then make even less sense for the US commanders to then blame their own men for the attack.

 

And it would make no sense at all for the US commanders to refuse to bury the dead, treat the injured, repair the damage, and admit responsibility - especially when all of these things were their fault and their responsibility.  Their fault and their responsibility for not acting on information they already knew about the enemy.

 

 

But god did all of the above.

 

He carried on as normal, making no plans to stop the imminent disaster he knew was coming and the suffering that would follow.  He blamed Adam and Eve and Satan when, all along, it was his own will (not theirs) to overthrow creation.  He knew everything that was going to happen and just sat there with folded arms and let it happen.  He caused this suffering and even though he had the responsibility and power to put it right, he let the victims of his own plan of self-glorification suffer and continue to suffer.

 

So, if you really are quitting this thread Edgarcito, I'll ask you the $10 million dollar question - which I have no expectation you will have the honesty to answer.

 

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

 

 

 

So God in his unchanging nature was deceitful through Satan in the Garden?  That what your are saying?

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So God in his unchanging nature was deceitful through Satan in the Garden?  That what your are saying?

 

Right now I'm asking you a question Ed.

 

One that you've dodged.

 

One that you think can be overlooked if you ask me questions.

 

So, I'm not going to answer your questions until you answer mine.

 

 

Here it is again.

 

This time, please answer it.

 

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

 

[Edgarcito]

Just now, walterpthefirst said:

 

Right now I'm asking you a question Ed.

 

One that you've dodged.

 

One that you think can be overlooked if you ask me questions.

 

So, I'm not going to answer your questions until you answer mine.

 

 

Here it is again.

 

This time, please answer it.

 

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

 

No, screw off Walter.  Or how do they say it on your side if the losing ocean...bugger off.

[walterpthefirst]

I  had no expectation that you would honestly answer that question, Ed.

 

And look at how right I was about you.

 

 

You know that if you answered it honestly you would have to admit that god knew everything that would happen in Eden.

 

And this would put the blame and responsibility for the disaster squarely on him.

 

Not on Adam and Eve and not even on Satan.

 

 

I know that you know this because when you were in the same position of responsibility for the care of your children in your Texan garden you said that you'd take action to prevent the rattlesnake from harming them.

 

You know within yourself that it was the right and caring and responsible action to take.

 

And you also know that god did not do as you would have done.

 

 

But you cannot publicly admit that.

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Here's a chance for you to step in and practice your mod skills John.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

I  had no expectation that you would honestly answer that question, Ed.

 

And look at how right I was about you.

 

 

You know that if you answered it honestly you would have to admit that god knew everything that would happen in Eden.

 

And this would put the blame and responsibility for the disaster squarely on him.

 

Not on Adam and Eve and not even on Satan.

 

 

I know that you know this because when you were in the same position of responsibility for the care of your children in your Texan garden you said that you'd take action to prevent the rattlesnake from harming them.

 

You know within yourself that it was the right and caring and responsible action to take.

 

And you also know that god did not do as you would have done.

 

 

But you cannot publicly admit that.

 

 

 

Then your are saying that we are nothing but a bunch of figures on a board....heroes, scapegoats, the blessed, the tormented, etc.  Why won't you admit that?

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Then your are saying that we are nothing but a bunch of figures on a board....heroes, scapegoats, the blessed, the tormented, etc.  Why won't you admit that?

 

Because I'm still waiting for you to honestly answer the question I've put to you twice now.

 

This one.

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Because I'm still waiting for you to honestly answer the question I've put to you twice now.

 

This one.

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

So you actually had not explanation behind creating this thread, the guise of "helping Ed understand", just a slow rehash of your true intent....

 

What a nasty person you are sir.  Truly.  I don't say that lightly.  You are not a good person.

[walterpthefirst]

No, my true intent was to help you understand predestination.

 

I'm on record as saying that.

 

The fact that you don't like the full consequences of what that understanding is, is not my problem.

 

Thanks to my efforts and patience you are beginning to understand, tho'.

 

That is why you refuse to answer the question.

 

Your refusal signals that you understand where the true blame lies.

 

The days when you could claim that you didn't understand are now over, Ed.

 

You now understand enough about predestination to realize that god's will is sovereign and not man's.

 

And by refusing to act to protect his children (unlike you) the responsibility for all suffering on earth is his.

 

You understand that now.

 

But you don't like it and cannot accept it.

 

Which is why you refuse to answer that simple question.

[walterpthefirst]

Since I operate a three-strikes-and-your-out policy for questions I'm going to ask you one more time, Ed.

 

 

Did god know in advance of creating the heavens and the earth, everything that was going to happen in Eden?

 

 

Please give your honest answer.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

Prof, please do the respectful thing by me and put the gentleman on ignore.  Thank you.