How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[Edgarcito]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:52 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Ok then Edgarcito, let's resume with a recap.

 

Any changes that seem to happen to god in scripture are not true changes to his nature, his mind or his intent.  They are simply done so that we can relate to him.

 

You said that you could comprehend this and you also had some additional questions, which will become relevant soon and which will soon be answered.  Thank you for your patience.

 

 

All being well, our next step is to get into the meat of understanding more about god's mind and intent and how these things are linked to his nature and his character.  We're going to treat scripture at face value and also take the standard Christian beliefs about god as givens, applying logic to both of these things.  Doing this shouldn't be a problem and we should both be on the same page when we do this.  

 

First off we'll compile two lists.  One of god's powers and abilities and the other of his personal characteristics.  This should be easy enough and I'll even start off both lists with some examples.  In no particular order...

 

God is all powerful (omnipotent).

God is everywhere (omnipresent).

God is eternal, existing outside of time.  

God is all knowing.

God sees everything in creation.

God is the creator of everything.

God is complete within himself, needing nothing else to be himself.

God is infallible.

God has free will.

 

When it comes to his character and personality...

 

God is perfect love.

God is perfect goodness.

God is perfect justice.

God is perfect wisdom.

God is perfectly moral.

 

We're making two lists here because its a standard Christian belief that god is a person, just like you and me.  We have abilities and personal characteristics.  These combine in our lives to make us who and what we are and they are where our values, motivations and intentions originate from.  It therefore logically follows that because god is a person, his abilities and personal characteristics are where his values, motivations and intentions also originate from.  Just like us. 

 

 

So, I'd like you to do two things please, Edgarcito. 

 

The first is to read through everything written here and see if you agree with it.  Please raise any point that you disagree with and please say why.  We can discuss anything that's relevant.  Or, if something's not clear or doesn't make sense, please say so.  We can discuss it.

 

The second thing is to look at both both lists and see if you can add to both of them.  The clearer picture we have of god's powers and abilities and his character and personality, the better.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

Let's just move on Walter...thanks.  It doesn't matter whether I have a question or comment....you're just going to continue down the fucking trail anyhow.  Move the fuck on already.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

Does the time limit on the edit function come along with the Authentic Christian Believer tag?  Or is that just how the board works now?

 

I wanted to edit a typo, and it says I can't.

I can only edit for maybe an hour?  And Christians are don't have access to what used to be Totally off Topic....and I think there is another sub-forum that Christians can't see either.  Can't post in several sub-forums unless the mod likes you.

 

 

[RankStranger]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I can only edit for maybe an hour?  And Christians are don't have access to what used to be Totally off Topic....and I think there is another sub-forum that Christians can't see either.  Can't post in several sub-forums unless the mod likes you.

 

 

 

Yeah, I can't 'like' posts anymore either.  It's like I'm a threat somehow 

[RankStranger]

Well that may be a glitch.  I see some things aren't loading correctly.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

21 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

Yeah, I can't 'like' posts anymore either.  It's like I'm a threat somehow 

I forgot, you can't like either, you are right.  

[RankStranger]

Well you can't just let Christians go around liking things.  Might contaminate the pure logic with our 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I forgot, you can't like either, you are right.  

 

12 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Well you can't just let Christians go around liking things.  Might contaminate the pure logic with our 

None of us can "like" webmdave's posts.  I came up with a simple solution.  Screenshot each of the reactions, then quote the post you want to react to and attach the appropriate reaction.  Like this:

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

59 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Let's just move on Walter...thanks.  It doesn't matter whether I have a question or comment....you're just going to continue down the fucking trail anyhow.  Move the fuck on already.

 

No, that's not right, Ed.

 

I created this thread for you and if you don't want to work with me in it then the Prof can just lock it down.

 

 

But, I'm not inflexible.

 

I'll therefore assume that you agree with what I wrote about god's abilities and characteristics.

 

And I'll assume that you have no further questions.

 

Which leaves the way clear for us to continue.

 

 

However, now its my turn to be busy with other stuff.

 

So, just as I waited for you, please wait for me.

 

I'll carry on here as soon as I can.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[RankStranger]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

None of us can "like" webmdave's posts.  I came up with a simple solution.  Screenshot each of the reactions, then quote the post you want to react to and attach the appropriate reaction.  Like this:

 

 

 

 

 

I think there's some misunderstanding here.

 

I mean that we Authentic Christian Believers don't have a react button available on any posts.  Maybe the idea is that since this is an anti-Christian site, we couldn't possibly like anything here... so just leave the button blank?

 

I'm sure that was the reasoning 

[RankStranger]

Remember when this site was successfully de-converting Christians?  I remember.  Things were different.

[Edgarcito]

34 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No, that's not right, Ed.

 

I created this thread for you and if you don't want to work with me in it then the Prof can just lock it down.

 

 

But, I'm not inflexible.

 

I'll therefore assume that you agree with what I wrote about god's abilities and characteristics.

 

And I'll assume that you have no further questions.

 

Which leaves the way clear for us to continue.

 

 

However, now its my turn to be busy with other stuff.

 

So, just as I waited for you, please wait for me.

 

I'll carry on here as soon as I can.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Please don't assume I agree with your lists.  Please move forward with your reasoning.  Thanks.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

48 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I think there's some misunderstanding here.

 

I mean that we Authentic Christian Believers don't have a react button available on any posts.  Maybe the idea is that since this is an anti-Christian site, we couldn't possibly like anything here... so just leave the button blank?

 

I'm sure that was the reasoning 

I'd have to refer you to webmdave on that.  It's his site and it's set up the way it's set up.  

 

On a point of correction, though, this site is an ex-christian site, not an anti-christian one.  If we were anti-christian, we wouldn't welcome christians or encourage them to participate.  I know maybe it seems like y'all are being treated unfairly; but, honestly, how long do you reckon any of us would last on a christian website before they extended the left foot of fellowship toward us?

 

Anyhow, I enjoy the conversations I have with christians here as much as the ones I have with anybody else.  Iron sharpens iron, and all that.

[RankStranger]

11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'd have to refer you to webmdave on that.  It's his site and it's set up the way it's set up.  

 

On a point of correction, though, this site is an ex-christian site, not an anti-christian one.  If we were anti-christian, we wouldn't welcome christians or encourage them to participate.  I know maybe it seems like y'all are being treated unfairly; but, honestly, how long do you reckon any of us would last on a christian website before they extended the left foot of fellowship toward us?

 

Anyhow, I enjoy the conversations I have with christians here as much as the ones I have with anybody else.  Iron sharpens iron, and all that.

 

I understand that there's a long history here and that Dave can do what he wants.  It's not a big deal- I asked for the Authentic Christian Believer tag knowing that there are restrictions (just not sure what they were).  I'm slightly disappointed and definitely not surprised

 

A long, long time ago- probably before you showed up- there was a thread in the Lion's Den from Loren.  I didn't know the guy, but he seemed awesome from what I read.  He was one of the Ancients... one of the very early members, here a few years before I showed up.  Anyway, in his thread he talked about why it's important to be kind to Christians even when they're shitty and stupid.  It's necessary if you're gonna win hearts and minds, and he understood that.  

 

I'm not accusing you or anybody else here of being unkind to me- that's not the point at all.  Point is that in its current state, there's rarely more than 2-3 Christians who would bother to post with any regularity here.  And why would they when they're vastly out-numbered, and are restricted on where and how they can post?  I can't even 'like' a post... which seems petty.

 

When I was an ExChristian, I took a little pride in the fact that we Atheists were happy to debate Christians even on their terms... whereas we would be immediately banned from their sites.  The latter is still true of course.  The former isn't nearly as true as it used to be.  I find that... lame.

 

But whatever.  Happy America Day 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Point is that in its current state, there's rarely more than 2-3 Christians who would bother to post with any regularity here.  And why would they when they're vastly out-numbered, and are restricted on where and how they can post?  I can't even 'like' a post... which seems petty.

 

When I was an ExChristian, I took a little pride in the fact that we Atheists were happy to debate Christians even on their terms... whereas we would be immediately banned from their sites.  The latter is still true of course.  The former isn't nearly as true as it used to be.  I find that... lame.

The purpose of this website is not to debate christians.  The purpose is to provide a safe space for those struggling with leaving christianity.  To help them deconvert and begin to rebuild their lives.  We may not have as many coming through as we did back in the glory days; but what few do come, we have a responsibility to protect and serve them as best as we can.  We restrict where and how christians can post for the same reason they don't allow beer at the A.A. meeting.  Not because we're afraid, nor because we're angry; but because we recognize that there might be those among us who are still reeling from the trauma of religion.  Thus, we keep things confined here in The Lion's Den. 

 

I have no doubt that you would conduct yourself with respect and courtesy in any of the forums here; but the same cannot be said for some of the other christians who have come through over the years.  I may not be one of the Ancient Ones; but I do remember a time when christians had greater access to the other forums here.  And I remember one incident in particular.  A christian developed an unhealthy fixation on one of our members who was newly deconverted and struggling with the fear of hell.  This guy slid into her DMs, chased her from thread to thread and forum to forum all across this website, even reincarnated himself several times after being banned for his behavior.  The young lady in question was left traumatized when all she wanted was a safe haven to process her grief and begin her healing.

 

Mistakes are made to be learned from, not to be repeated every time somebody thinks the consequences are petty and lame.  I'm sure you can appreciate this.

 

Now, we've both spoke our peace, let's let Walt and Edgarcito get back to their little parlay here.  Thanks.

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Please don't assume I agree with your lists.  Please move forward with your reasoning.  Thanks.

 

I can't do that, Ed.

 

This thread is for your benefit and you need to be engaged in the process.

 

I've already said that I'm not going to just lay everything out without you doing anything.

 

And I've already greatly reduced what I'm asking of you.

 

If I can't get any feedback from you whatsoever how do I know where we disagree?

 

So, please extend me the kindness that I've extended to you, which you thanked me for.

 

I'm going to yield more ground to you by asking you not to bother to add to the lists.

 

Just please tell me if you agree with them or not, where and how you disagree, if you do.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[RankStranger]

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The purpose of this website is not to debate christians.  The purpose is to provide a safe space for those struggling with leaving christianity.  To help them deconvert and begin to rebuild their lives.  We may not have as many coming through as we did back in the glory days; but what few do come, we have a responsibility to protect and serve them as best as we can.  We restrict where and how christians can post for the same reason they don't allow beer at the A.A. meeting.  Not because we're afraid, nor because we're angry; but because we recognize that there might be those among us who are still reeling from the trauma of religion.  Thus, we keep things confined here in The Lion's Den. 

 

I have no doubt that you would conduct yourself with respect and courtesy in any of the forums here; but the same cannot be said for some of the other christians who have come through over the years.  I may not be one of the Ancient Ones; but I do remember a time when christians had greater access to the other forums here.  And I remember one incident in particular.  A christian developed an unhealthy fixation on one of our members who was newly deconverted and struggling with the fear of hell.  This guy slid into her DMs, chased her from thread to thread and forum to forum all across this website, even reincarnated himself several times after being banned for his behavior.  The young lady in question was left traumatized when all she wanted was a safe haven to process her grief and begin her healing.

 

Mistakes are made to be learned from, not to be repeated every time somebody thinks the consequences are petty and lame.  I'm sure you can appreciate this.

 

Now, we've both spoke our peace, let's let Walt and Edgarcito get back to their little parlay here.  Thanks.

 

Most of this site is a safe-space.  There are parts of it that I can't even access with my Authentic Christian Believer status, and I can't freely post my opinions in most of it (which isn't exactly new, but the rationale has changed  ).  And that's fine- that's not at all what I'm whining about.  I'm whining about the Lion's Den specifically, where I've chosen to post now that I'm a Christian- out of respect for people on this site.  I've remained kind, respectful, and nuanced.  I'm not proselytizing even in this forum, and I'm not posting where I'm not welcome.

 

The Lion's Den is in fact a debate area, specifically for debating Christians.  That's right at the top of the page for this section of the forum.  The fact that ya'll explicitly refuse to debate on equal terms- even in this little walled garden with more mods than regular members- what does that say about the strength of your arguments?  I know that ExChrsitian arguments regarding biblical contradictions and Christian hypocrisy are in many cases rock solid.  And that's not at all where we disagree.

 

And Christians not being able to even 'like' posts?  Even in the Lion's Den?  That's comically petty.  In your shoes I'd find that a little embarrassing- even as an Atheist I thought the way The Lion's Den was run... was often idiotic.  Short-sighted.  Petty.  Counterproductive.

 

Almost 10 years ago (still firmly an Atheist) I pointed out Loren's thread in the Lion's Den (it was still pinned at that time, now long gone), and made almost exactly the same argument I've made in this thread (that maybe we should be kind to Christians where possible, because throwing feces at them simply isn't effective).  That let to some serious forum-drama:  Antlerman (who initially agreed with me) immediately banned Gandpa Harley for being mean to Christians- which is exactly what I asked him not to do.  Drama escalated until both of them left the forum permanently.  That was the beginning of the end of my time posting as an Atheist on this forum.

 

Before that incident, I really thought highly of Antlerman.  He's an extremely open and intelligent guy- I learned a lot from him.  And then a tiny amount of authority revealed his character.

 

Anyhow, feel free to defer to authority again if you like- if you don't want to debate ideas on their own merits.  You and Dave can run things however you want- I'm not questioning that.  But I can give my thoughts on the matter unless/until the ban-hammer shuts down what I consider to be an interesting discussion.  It's probably inevitable sooner or later.

 

 

[TABA]

30 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I'm whining about the Lion's Den specifically, where I've chosen to post now that I'm a Christian- out of respect for people on this site.  I've remained kind, respectful, and nuanced.  I'm not proselytizing even in this forum, and I'm not posting where I'm not welcome.

 

The Lion's Den is in fact a debate area, specifically for debating Christians.  That's right at the top of the page for this section of the forum.  The fact that ya'll explicitly refuse to debate on equal terms- even in this little walled garden with more mods than regular members- what does that say about the strength of your arguments?

What do you mean, we “explicitly refuse to debate on equal terms”?  Seems like there’s been a lot of such in the Den recently.  

[RankStranger]

13 minutes ago, TABA said:

What do you mean, we “explicitly refuse to debate on equal terms”?  Seems like there’s been a lot of such in the Den recently.  

 

I'll give a few examples to get started:

 

1.  There are more mods than regular members among the regulars in this forum.  A discussion on equal terms cannot be had when half of your debate opponents can insta-ban you on a whim.

 

2.  Authentic Christian Believers can't even 'like' posts, even in the Lion's Den.  There are plenty of times that I'd like to express agreement or support, often toward ExChristians.  I can't use that form of communication, because I'm not of the approved religious affiliation.  This in no way impacts the security concerns that The Professor referred to.  It's just petty.  It's counterproductive for discussion in general, and provides just one more reason for Christians to not bother with you folks.  I don't know what other restrictions are involved when one receives the Authentic Christian Believer tag, but I do know that I am specifically subject to rules and site restrictions that the rest of you aren't.  Whatever the reasons are (and there are valid reasons for many of the restrictions), that is not a discussion on equal terms.

 

3.  It's strictly forbidden in the ExC rules to even have this discussion (discussing moderation).  You are totally justified if you want to ban me right now, for even saying this.  That is not a discussion on equal terms.

[RankStranger]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:52 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Ok then Edgarcito, let's resume with a recap.

 

Any changes that seem to happen to god in scripture are not true changes to his nature, his mind or his intent.  They are simply done so that we can relate to him.

 

You said that you could comprehend this and you also had some additional questions, which will become relevant soon and which will soon be answered.  Thank you for your patience.

 

 

All being well, our next step is to get into the meat of understanding more about god's mind and intent and how these things are linked to his nature and his character.  We're going to treat scripture at face value and also take the standard Christian beliefs about god as givens, applying logic to both of these things.  Doing this shouldn't be a problem and we should both be on the same page when we do this.  

 

First off we'll compile two lists.  One of god's powers and abilities and the other of his personal characteristics.  This should be easy enough and I'll even start off both lists with some examples.  In no particular order...

 

God is all powerful (omnipotent).

God is everywhere (omnipresent).

God is eternal, existing outside of time.  

God is all knowing.

God sees everything in creation.

God is the creator of everything.

God is complete within himself, needing nothing else to be himself.

God is infallible.

God has free will.

 

When it comes to his character and personality...

 

God is perfect love.

God is perfect goodness.

God is perfect justice.

God is perfect wisdom.

God is perfectly moral.

 

We're making two lists here because its a standard Christian belief that god is a person, just like you and me.  We have abilities and personal characteristics.  These combine in our lives to make us who and what we are and they are where our values, motivations and intentions originate from.  It therefore logically follows that because god is a person, his abilities and personal characteristics are where his values, motivations and intentions also originate from.  Just like us. 

 

 

So, I'd like you to do two things please, Edgarcito. 

 

The first is to read through everything written here and see if you agree with it.  Please raise any point that you disagree with and please say why.  We can discuss anything that's relevant.  Or, if something's not clear or doesn't make sense, please say so.  We can discuss it.

 

The second thing is to look at both both lists and see if you can add to both of them.  The clearer picture we have of god's powers and abilities and his character and personality, the better.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you understand how you're coming across in this post?  Trying to corral Ed into a discussion strictly on your terms, where he clearly isn't even that interested in whatever nitpicky point you're attempting to make?

 

How would you phrase this question, if you were in a casual conversation sitting next to an equal?

[walterpthefirst]

Yes, I wonder what this means too, TABA.

 

 

The Lion's Den is in fact a debate area, specifically for debating Christians.  That's right at the top of the page for this section of the forum.  The fact that ya'll explicitly refuse to debate on equal terms- even in this little walled garden with more mods than regular members- what does that say about the strength of your arguments?  I know that ExChrsitian arguments regarding biblical contradictions and Christian hypocrisy are in many cases rock solid.  And that's not at all where we disagree.

 

 

RankStranger, haven't you noticed the way I'm having to negotiate with Edgarcito every step of the way, because he won't take an equal part in this thread?

 

It almost looks as if he's trying everything in his power to avoid meeting me on equal terms.

 

To get me to do 100% of the work and for him to do nothing.

 

I created this thread specifically for him and he wants to do as little work in it as possible, whining (that's your terminology) that he doesn't want to answer any questions.

 

I've explained to him that if I grant his request to answer no questions that'll set a precedent that other Christians can use and exploit, so as to avoid difficult questions about their faith. 

 

I've also prepared notes about this subject and posted quite a lot on it so far, with more to come.  Would you be prepared to say that the quantity and quality of his input has matched mine?  Or is the ratio more like 95% me and 5% him?

 

So, there's no equality between Edgarcito and me in this thread and we certainly aren't debating on equal terms.

 

It is the Christian who is tipping the playing field in his favour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, RankStranger said:

 

 

Do you understand how you're coming across in this post?  Trying to corral Ed into a discussion strictly on your terms, where he clearly isn't even that interested in whatever nitpicky point you're attempting to make?

 

How would you phrase this question, if you were in a casual conversation sitting next to an equal?

 

 

Please make up your mind, RS.

 

You complain about inequality in debating, but now use the example of casual conversation.

 

The two are not the same.

 

Debating has rules and structure which both debating parties should follow.

 

The application of logic to scripture requires that certain questions be asked and answered.

 

If Ed really doesn't want to do that he can just tell me and the Prof will lock this thread up.

 

But, instead he's just asked not to answer any questions.

 

So, what with your timely input and his reluctance I predict that the Prof will be locking it very soon.

 

Unless perhaps, you butt out and let Edgarcito and I carry on unhindered?

 

 

[TABA]

16 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

There are more mods than regular members among the regulars in this forum.  A discussion on equal terms cannot be had when half of your debate opponents can insta-ban you on a whim.

 

16 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

You are totally justified if you want to ban me right now, for even saying this.  That is not a discussion on equal terms.

I’d like to see more regular members participate in the Lions Den too.  I can’t make it happen.  It’s the most experienced apostates who feel comfortable debating believers, and the most experienced apostates also often become moderators. 
 

I do not recall moderators using the ban lightly, not at all.  In my experience it has only been after repeated transgressions and several warnings that the hammer gets dropped.  

[RankStranger]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

Please make up your mind, RS.

 

You complain about inequality in debating, but now use the example of casual conversation.

 

The two are not the same.

 

Debating has rules and structure which both debating parties should follow.

 

The application of logic to scripture requires that certain questions be asked and answered.

 

If Ed really doesn't want to do that he can just tell me and the Prof will lock this thread up.

 

But, instead he's just asked not to answer any questions.

 

So, what with your timely input and his reluctance I predict that the Prof will be locking it very soon.

 

Unless perhaps, you butt out and let Edgarcito and I carry on unhindered?

 

 

 

Ok, I understand a bit better where you're coming from.  You think that since this is a "debate" forum, it's within your rights to badger Christians to answer questions that they're not particularly interested in.  You've even referred to the forum rules as a justification for this.  You may even be right, per the 'rules and structure'- and I could not possibly care less if you are.

 

I'm here for discussion and debate, by MY rules.  You will not goad me into debating something that I'm not interested in.  I truly do not care what 'the rules' have to say about that.  I'd rather stick around as I've enjoyed the discussion here lately, but I won't lose a minute of sleep if the ban-hammer strikes because I refused to debate some point that doesn't interest me.

 

What is it about discussion on equal terms that you don't find agreeable?  Feel free to have The Professor lock this thread if that question makes you uncomfortable.

 

 

[RankStranger]

7 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

I’d like to see more regular members participate in the Lions Den too.  I can’t make it happen.  It’s the most experienced apostates who feel comfortable debating believers, and the most experienced apostates also often become moderators. 
 

I do not recall moderators using the ban lightly, not at all.  In my experience it has only been after repeated transgressions and several warnings that the hammer gets dropped.  

 

I'd like to see more people of all kinds in this forum.  This used to be a spectacular forum with a lot of great people.  Now it's a mediocre forum with a few great people... and a whole bunch of rules and mods.  If you can't make the connection here... I dunno what to tell you 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 minutes ago, TABA said:

do not recall moderators using the ban lightly, not at all.  In my experience it has only been after repeated transgressions and several warnings that the hammer gets dropped.  

 

I recall times i thought the ban hammer should of been dropped but never was. RNP has been very hesitant to use the ban hammer in my experience. And that is good. I was wrong in those situations and RNP was much more fair in his deliberations.

 

DB