How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[RankStranger]

Walter, are you interested in a non-fundamentalist answer?  Or is this a fundies-only question?

[Hierophant]

@RankStranger Have you posted somewhere why you converted back to Christianity? I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Walter, are you interested in a non-fundamentalist answer?  Or is this a fundies-only question?

 

I'm placing no impediments on the free will of anyone who wants to participate in this thread, RS.

 

However, I have been careful to stress the context in which I'm applying logic to scripture.

 

That is, treating the bible at face value and also treating what it says about god as true.

 

If you were to introduce something that fell outside of that context, then I'm not going to stop you.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

21 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

To return to the process...

 

I posted a list of nine of god's abilities.

 

God is all powerful (omnipotent).

God is everywhere (omnipresent).

God is eternal, existing outside of time.  

God is all knowing.

God sees everything in creation.

God is the creator of everything.

God is complete within himself, needing nothing else to be himself.

God is infallible.

God has free will.

 

I also posted a list of five things that define his character.

 

God is perfect love.

God is perfect goodness.

God is perfect justice.

God is perfect wisdom.

God is perfectly moral.

 

In what follows I make no claim that it is the truth or that it represents things that humans actually know.  It is simply the application of logic and the rules of language to the standard Christian beliefs about god, as described by the bible.

 

Let us look at the first of god's listed abilities, his omnipotence.

 

Q.

Is there any way that god could be greater or lesser than omnipotent?

 

A.

No. If he were any less than omnipotent then scripture would be false and for the sake of this exercise I am taking scripture at face value and treating it as true.  If it says that he is omnipotent, then he is not less than that.  

 

Logically, he cannot be greater than omnipotent.  There is no logical thing as a condition greater than omnipotence.  

 

Therefore, since god is also eternal, his omnipotence is an unchanging ability.  He cannot decrease or increase in his power.  He was, is and always will be all-powerful and omnipotent.  His omnipotence does not and cannot change.

 

 

Before I go ahead and ask the same question about his eight remaining abilities and the five things that define his character, are there any questions?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

Yes but I’m driving.  In the interim you might read/ post the definition.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

Yes but I’m driving.  In the interim you might read/ post the definition.

 

Of what?   Omnipotence?

 

I'm using the standard Christian definition of omnipotence, as defined by scripture.

 

Would this definition, which is based upon scripture, be acceptable?

 

Omnipotence refers to God’s all-powerful character. To say that God is omnipotent is to recognize that there is nothing outside of His ability to accomplish and no one who can exercise power over Him. God created the entire universe, and He holds the power over it all.

 

What Is Omnipotence? - National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

 

 

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Of what?   Omnipotence?

 

I'm using the standard Christian definition of omnipotence, as defined by scripture.

 

Would this definition, which is based upon scripture, be acceptable?

 

Omnipotence refers to God’s all-powerful character. To say that God is omnipotent is to recognize that there is nothing outside of His ability to accomplish and no one who can exercise power over Him. God created the entire universe, and He holds the power over it all.

 

What Is Omnipotence? - National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

 

 

This part I agree.  You said “he cannot decrease”.  Are you saying he must express the omnipotence all the time?

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

This part I agree.  You said “he cannot decrease”.  Are you saying he must express the omnipotence all the time?

 

No.  I'm not saying that.

 

Scripture does.

 

And consider this.

 

If he were to voluntarily decrease his power, how would he qualify as being eternally omnipotent, as the bible says?

 

For the bible to be true he must be omnipotent all of the time.

[walterpthefirst]

Top 13 Bible Verses-God Never Changes - Everyday Servant

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Thanks for the clarification.  I'll start my own thread and quote you for further discussion.

 

Boy 

I look forward to a productive, and constructive, perspective from you.  Do not disappoint me.

[walterpthefirst]

Tomorrow.

[Edgarcito]

58 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No.  I'm not saying that.

 

Scripture does.

 

And consider this.

 

If he were to voluntarily decrease his power, how would he qualify as being eternally omnipotent, as the bible says?

 

For the bible to be true he must be omnipotent all of the time.

Then you have to define what the expression of omnipotence would look like.  I’ve never had the thought, nor do I read that in the verses you cite… the expression of constant omnipotence.  For example, to certain things, I’m omnipotent.  But I don’t constantly demonstrate my omnipotence.  Are you saying God demonstrates omnipotence all the time, and if so, what does that look with respect to creation.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then what would you suggest, Weezer?

Thank you,

 

Walter.

I am suggesting the whole tone of your presentation is not that of an adult debate.  It is more like a convoluted lecture, and you are talking down to your student.  But this seems to be your style, and if Ed will follow along, then continue.   

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Then you have to define what the expression of omnipotence would look like.  I’ve never had the thought, nor do I read that in the verses you cite… the expression of constant omnipotence.  For example, to certain things, I’m omnipotent.  But I don’t constantly demonstrate my omnipotence.  Are you saying God demonstrates omnipotence all the time, and if so, what does that look with respect to creation.  

 

This thread isn't an exercise in my personal interpretation, Ed.

 

I've tried to make it clear from the outset and dropped reminders along the way that what I'm doing here is applying logic to the standard Christian definitions of god's abilities and characteristics as defined by scripture.  So, the definitions I'm using are not my own and I'm not choosing to interpret scripture my way, from my point of view.

 

You should be familiar with my modus operandi by now.  I play Devil's Advocate.  Which means that I neither hold to the position I'm arguing from nor I do believe it.  Because of these two things I don't need to interpret scripture in any way of my choosing.  As such I've been at pains to point out that in this thread I'm just taking the bible at face value and treating it as true.

 

Now, to your example...

 

You are in no way omnipotent, Edgarcito.  If you think that you are then you don't understand what that word means.  If you can't instantly influence events on the far side of the universe just by thinking about them then you aren't omnipotent.  If the tides and the rains and the harvests don't happen by your will, then you aren't omnipotent.  If the interactions of atoms at the centre of the earth don't happen by your will, then you aren't omnipotent.

 

Having free will to make choices about our lives (if we do have that) is not the same as being omnipotent.  If that were the case then, according to scripture, sinners are omnipotent when they freely chose to disobey god.  Which would have made Adam and Eve omnipotent in Eden - something clearly contradicted by scripture.

 

And if you are omnipotent then so must every other person be the same.  And that is clearly contradicted by scripture.

 

What Is the Omnipotence of God? Definition and Bible Meaning (christianity.com)

 

Our English word “omnipotence” originates from Latin. “Omni” means all, and “potent” means power. Thus, when we speak of the omnipotence of God, we declare Him All Powerful or All Mighty.

Three “omnis” of God credit to Him, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. These three acknowledge Him as All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Present (or everywhere present). All three involve the other two as a whole and are inseparable attributes of God.

 

So, could you tell me how and why you think you are omnipotent, please Ed?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Let us look at the second of god's listed abilities, his omnipresence.

 

Q.

Is there any way that god could be greater or lesser than omnipresent?

 

A.

No. If he were any less than omnipresent then scripture would be false and for the sake of this exercise I am taking scripture at face value and treating it as true.  If it says that he is omnipresent, then he is not less than that.  

 

Logically, he cannot be greater than omnipresent.  There is no logical thing as a condition greater than omnipresent.  

 

Therefore, since god is also eternal, his omnipresence is an unchanging ability.  He cannot decrease or increase in where he is present.  He was, is and always will be all-powerful and omnipresence.  His omnipresence does not and cannot change.

 

18 Bible verses about God's Omnipresence (knowing-jesus.com)

[walterpthefirst]

Let us look at the fourth of god's listed abilities, his all knowledge.

 

Q.

Is there any way that god could be greater or lesser than all knowing?

 

A.

No. If he were any less than all knowing then scripture would be false and for the sake of this exercise I am taking scripture at face value and treating it as true.  If it says that he is all knowing, then he is not less than that.  

 

Logically, he cannot be greater than all knowing.  There is no logical thing as a condition greater than all knowledge.  

 

Therefore, since god is also eternal, his all knowledge is an unchanging ability.  He cannot decrease or increase in his all knowledge.  He was, is and always will be all knowing.  His all knowledge does not and cannot change.

 

73 Bible verses about God, The Eternal (knowing-jesus.com)

[walterpthefirst]

What Is the Omnipotence of God? Definition and Bible Meaning (christianity.com)

 

Our English word “omnipotence” originates from Latin. “Omni” means all, and “potent” means power. Thus, when we speak of the omnipotence of God, we declare Him All Powerful or All Mighty.

Three “omnis” of God credit to Him, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. These three acknowledge Him as All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Present (or everywhere present). All three involve the other two as a whole and are inseparable attributes of God.

 

It logically follows that if god is all-powerful (omnipotent), all-present (omnipresent), all-knowing and eternal then he also fulfils the five remaining abilities on our list.

 

He created everything.  64 Bible verses about God, The Creator (knowing-jesus.com)

He sees everything.  What Does the Bible Say About God Sees All Things? (openbible.info)

He is complete.  9 Bible verses about God Is Self Existent (knowing-jesus.com)

He is infallible.  Only God Is Infallible - Come And Reason Ministries

 

He has free will. 

 

This last one requires no scripture to support it.  If you believe that you have free will Ed, then it logically follows that the one who granted you that (god) must also have free will.  After all, how could a god without free will give you an ability that he doesn't have?

 

Finally, since scripture says that god is eternal, then all of his eight other abilities must be eternal.  If that were not so and there were a time when he did not possess them, he would have been subject to change - and scripture is clear that god does not change.

 

Scripture and logic both agree that god does not change.

[walterpthefirst]

Let us look at the first of god's listed characteristics, his perfect love.

 

Q.

Is there any way that god could be greater or lesser than perfect in his love?

 

A.

No. If he were any less than perfect love then scripture would be false and for the sake of this exercise I am taking scripture at face value and treating it as true.  If it says that he is perfect love, then he is not less than that.  

 

Logically, he cannot be greater than perfect.  There is no logical thing as a condition greater than perfection.  

 

Therefore, since god is also eternal, his perfect love is an unchanging ability.  He cannot decrease or increase in the perfection of his love.  He was, is and always will be perfect love.  His love does not and cannot change - it remains perfect.  Always.

 

The Love of God - 20+ Bible Verses about God's Love (christianity.com)

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

For the sake of brevity, the four remaining personal characteristics of god can be treated in the same way.

 

God cannot logically be lesser or greater than perfection.

 

There is no logical condition as more perfect than perfect.

 

There is no logic in claiming that perfection can be improved.

 

And there is no logic in claiming that perfection can change.

 

Perfection is an absolute condition.

 

If god is eternal then he always was, is and always will be absolutely perfect.

 

The perfection of his personal characteristics cannot change because perfection cannot change.

 

God is perfect goodness.  36 Bible Verses about the Goodness of God — Bible Lyfe

God is perfect justice.       21 Bible verses about God, Justice Of (knowing-jesus.com)

God is perfect wisdom.     45 Bible verses about God, Wisdom Of (knowing-jesus.com)

 

God is perfectly moral.

 

This last one requires no scripture to support it.  Since goodness and fairness (justice) are moral attributes it logically follows that if god is the perfection of goodness and justice he must therefore be morally perfect.

 

But, if you want the scripture...  God Is the Moral Standard (harvest.org)

 

So, in the context of god's personal characteristics, once again scripture and logic agree that god does not and cannot change.

 

Summing up, by applying logic to scripture and treating scripture as true we find that none of god's abilities or personal characteristics ever change.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

So, could you tell me how and why you think you are omnipotent, please Ed?

 

We are made in his image....and the reason I keep mentioning our objective and subjective perspectives...that we perceive and act both directions whether we truly are or not.

 

I believe creation is an act of omnipotence....and I'm remembering "very good" was tied to this relationship as it should be in congruency.  A violation to that omnipotence would be just that.  It appears that Adam and Eve violated that eternal creation and hence the need for a solution.  As the story goes and your premise of God not being able to check that nature, we would expect more of the flood event rather than just the punishments/corrections to that nature.  We do notice though that he keeps them from attaining "eternal".  And interestingly enough, God didn't destroy everything in the flood either.  Another example is when Jesus could have turned stones to bread or called legions of angels rather than subjection.

 

I just wish that the revelation of why subjection is essentially the cure for our objective nature would present itself.  As John says, it would be objectively simple to correct an infraction to the omnipotence  with more omnipotence.  

 

Love is the answer I expect...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

As John says, it would be objectively simple to correct an infraction to the omnipotence  with more omnipotence.  

No.  That doesn't sound like something I would say, especially given, as Walt has already pointed out, it is logically impossible to add more to anything already omni. 

 

I might have said that it should be objectively simple for an omnipotent god to correct an infraction; but, if I did it was in argument against this barbaric bloodlust of requiring death in order to forgive.

[walterpthefirst]

I'm sorry Ed, but scripture disagrees with you.

 

Hebrews 2 : 5 - 9

 

5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 

6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
    a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned them with glory and honour
8     and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.

9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

You see?

 

Man was created lower than the angels and the angels themselves are lower than god.

 

When Jesus was a man he was temporarily lower than the angels.

 

So, how can a human be omnipotent (all powerful) if they are lower than the angels?

 

How can you be omnipotent if you are lower than the angels?

 

My friend, omnipotence is solely for god.

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  That doesn't sound like something I would say, especially given, as Walt has already pointed out, it is logically impossible to add more to anything already omni. 

 

I might have said that it should be objectively simple for an omnipotent god to correct an infraction; but, if I did it was in argument against this barbaric bloodlust of requiring death in order to forgive.

I'm not saying there is more "omni" on top  of omni, rather that he could have used power to correct an infraction.

[walterpthefirst]

As John says, it would be objectively simple to correct an infraction to the omnipotence  with more omnipotence.  

 

 

The Prof has just pointed out this error, Ed.

 

Omnipotence is an absolute.

 

You can't add more of an absolute to an absolute to get even more of an absolute.

 

That's nonsense.

 

If you don't believe me, please try adding as many zeros as you want to zero and see if you can make it even more zero.

 

Or stand at the North pole and try to go further north.

 

I'll wait.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

I'm sorry Ed, but scripture disagrees with you.

 

Hebrews 2 : 5 - 9

 

5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 

6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
    a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned them with glory and honour
8     and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.

9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

You see?

 

Man was created lower than the angels and the angels themselves are lower than god.

 

When Jesus was a man he was temporarily lower than the angels.

 

So, how can a human be omnipotent (all powerful) if they are lower than the angels?

 

How can you be omnipotent if you are lower than the angels?

 

My friend, omnipotence is solely for god.

You're missing the point "in his image".  

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm not saying there is more "omni" on top  of omni, rather that he could have used power to correct an infraction.

 

Ok then, if you understand that omniscience is an absolute that can have nothing added to it, please explain how god's omniscience can change in any way?