How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't think we have enough information DB.  No one that I know or have read can give reasoning to the snake's extra information in Eden.  Is there some entity capable of deception and still in the presence of God.....and all the questions that arise from that.  I understand everyone's point, but the questions I ask seemingly get glossed over.  

 

I put Walter on ignore....the ignore function is now working thanks to one of the mod's help.  I can see when he posts but don't intend on any interaction in the near future.  I commented so you could understand the status..Thanks!

 

Even though I'm on ignore because Edgarcito has once again misunderstood what I am doing in this thread its becomes necessary for me to put him right.   Again.

 

At no point in this thread have I said or claimed that I have any special knowledge or access to that which is unknown.  All I am doing here is applying logic to scripture.  So, to refute Edgarcito - we do have enough information.  The bible supplies it.  I'm just applying logic to the information contained within scripture.

 

That's what I've been doing in this thread and also in the Suffering for the Good of the World thread.

 

The fact that he will not answer certain questions or comment on certain bible passages indicates that the information he claims isn't there, is there.

 

He just refuses to look at it.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter is essentially saying there is no separation, predestined, God knew, yet God still somehow reacts in real time as separate entities.  And he wanted to explain that so that I might understand.  Apparently you don't understand either.

 

This is not what I have been saying and not what I will be saying.

[walterpthefirst]

28 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Mmmmmmmm maybe you shouldn't have muted him before his last post. Because that's not what he said.

 

 

Basically for God everything has already been done. He has seen the whole future and decided how he wanted it to go. To the end of revelations I suppose. Therfore he is unchanging even if he appears to have changed through the scripture. The past, present, and future are set in stone and unchanging. 

 

Therefore predestination.

 

DB

 

And this is a man who earlier said he was confused about predestination!

 

No longer!

 

Give the man a cigar!

[Edgarcito]

So let's continue to imagine.   Eden would be eternal, outside of time, those conditions where eternal beings could hang out as well....which explains why the Satan might be there.  Then God puts Adam and Eve outside of eternal and inside of time and gives control over to Satan....yet provides a way for humanity to return to eternal through intervention within time....Jesus

 

So maybe the difference in predestination and free will is has something to do with inside time and outside of time,....a damn physics problem.  I'm a chemistry major and the two don't mix.....chemistry and physics.  Problem solved.

[walterpthefirst]

31 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't have a problem with what you interpreted.  One would have to gather that God is watching our real time happen outside of time?

 

No.

 

Our past, present and future are all the same to god, just as DB said.  He doesn't watch time marching forward as a passive observer.  Nor is he within time, being affected by anything within it or reacting to anything within it.

 

Because he planned and ordained everything that would happen in his creation before he created it he is not a passive observer of things that are beyond his control.  Instead, he controls everything.  Including the will of each of us.  What we perceive as us making free willed decisions in our lives is no more than the appearance of free will.

 

In reality we are all pawns, automatons acting out the pre-decided will of god to satisfy his need to be glorified.

 

And that is how predestination works.

 

God appears to interact with us in real time, but in reality he has always known in advance what each of us will do, say, think and feel - so nothing we can do, say, think and feel can surprise him.  He is not actually interacting with us or reacting to us.  He is playing us like pawns in his great game of "Let's glorify god and use the whole of creation to do it!"

 

So, nobody actually chooses Jesus by themselves.  God ordains and predestines who will go through the motions of appearing to choose Jesus.  In the same way he ordains and predestines who will go through the motions of appearing to reject Jesus.

 

Just as scripture tells us.  The information is all there.  All we have to do is open up our eyes and our minds to it.

 

Romans 8 : 28 - 30.

 

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

Predestined according to his foreknowledge.  Called, not according to our will, but according to his purpose.  His purpose.  His will.  His choice.  Not ours.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

  

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So let's continue to imagine.   Eden would be eternal, outside of time, those conditions where eternal beings could hang out as well....which explains why the Satan might be there.  Then God puts Adam and Eve outside of eternal and inside of time and gives control over to Satan....yet provides a way for humanity to return to eternal through intervention within time....Jesus

 

So maybe the difference in predestination and free will is has something to do with inside time and outside of time,....a damn physics problem.  I'm a chemistry major and the two don't mix.....chemistry and physics.  Problem solved.

 

No.

 

Read the bible.  God alone is eternal.  Eden was part of creation and therefore NOT eternal.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So let's continue to imagine.   Eden would be eternal, outside of time, those conditions where eternal beings could hang out as well....which explains why the Satan might be there.  Then God puts Adam and Eve outside of eternal and inside of time and gives control over to Satan....yet provides a way for humanity to return to eternal through intervention within time....Jesus

 

So maybe the difference in predestination and free will is has something to do with inside time and outside of time,....a damn physics problem.  I'm a chemistry major and the two don't mix.....chemistry and physics.  Problem solved.

 

You don't have to imagine anything, Ed.

 

There is no need for any flights of fancy or fantasy.

 

Just read what scripture says.

 

All the information you need is there.

[Edgarcito]

Then we have time.....change within matter...we think.  How can time, a result of change, exist within something that is changeless.  

 

And omnipresence.  God within and outside of time simultaneously. And saying that prayer matters within time?  

 

But we have to think about communion.....I am in you and you are in me, that gives us a connectivity to timeless inside of time.

 

I'll have to admit, this is getting a bit confusing.  

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Then we have time.....change within matter...we think.  How can time, a result of change, exist within something that is changeless.  

 

And omnipresence.  God within and outside of time simultaneously. And saying that prayer matters within time?  

 

But we have to think about communion.....I am in you and you are in me, that gives us a connectivity to timeless inside of time.

 

I'll have to admit, this is getting a bit confusing.  

 

Look to scripture for the answers, Ed.

 

The bible says that god knows all things.  If that is so, then how can he change and know something new?  The answer is that he can't.  In the same way, the bible also says that god is all powerful.  If that is so, then how can he change and become more powerful than all powerful?  The answer is that he can't.  In the same way, the bible also says that god is everywhere.  If that is so, then how can he change and be in any other places than everywhere?  The answer is he can't.

 

And that's your three 'O's - omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.  God is these three things and that does not change.

 

We can perform the same exercise for his personal qualities of love, wisdom, justice and goodness.  He is the perfection of each of these things and so he can't be more perfect than perfect love.  Which means that his love never changes.  Just as scripture says so.  And ditto for his wisdom, justice and goodness.

 

Earlier I said that the human mind can't really grasp what eternity really means and the same goes for all the stuff I've just mentioned.  We can't understand it fully or properly, but if we apply logic to scripture we can see that god cannot change.

 

Change as we understand it only happens within the count of time.  But god created time, is greater than time and exists beyond time in ways that we cannot comprehend.  All we can do is use logic and scripture to realize that he cannot and does not change in any way that we can understand.

 

Does that help?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

22 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'll have to admit, this is getting a bit confusing.  

It seemed pretty simple until you started talking and trying to put your spin on it.  

 

But you're wrong about Eden. It was supposed to be a very real place on earth. In Genesis it even describes its location. 

 

Genesis 2

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

 

I'll just let the "word" do the talking. Its pretty evident by the description its on earth. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

For example, good and evil.  There's no separation in the ExC mind because the argument is God created evil.  So here I am entertaining just that.  Evil would HAVE to be a manifestation of God....no separation.  How may one be solely responsible for all creation yet a part of it not be a manifestation of itself?  Hence my scenario God is doing battle with himself with humanity as a component of the battle.  

You might be starting to get it, Ed.  Let's entertain your train of thought for a moment.  Everything is a manifestation of god.  The Serpent is a manifestation of god.  Adam and Eve are manifestations of god.  The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... is a manifestation of god.  And therefore, Ed, therefore... Sin is a manifestation of god. 

 

And this is exactly what Walt has been attempting to explain.  If the bible is true, then god deliberately subjected his creation to sin as a manifestation of himself and his glory.  

 

And this means, by extension, that the entire idea of "redemption" is little more than a cosmic circle jerk.  god (the jesus manifestation) died to save god (the humanity manifestation) from god (the sin manifestation).  god died to save god from god.  If the bible is true, then this is ultimately the reality it presents.  A garbled collage of entanglement and blame.

 

This is yet another reason you should realize that the god of the bible simply cannot exist as the bible describes him.  If he does exist as the bible describes him, then he is the cause of sin, evil, and suffering.  Indeed, he is not just the cause of it, he is sin, evil, and suffering.  How, then, can he be good, loving, and merciful?  

 

Now, let's not take up too much more of Walt's thread, here, without his permission.  I'm happy to continue this line of reasoning with you in a different thread--the Suffering thread or even a new one.

[walterpthefirst]

Has the Garden of Eden ever been found? - ChristianAnswers.Net

 

The Garden was destroyed by the Flood. Its actual location on the globe can never be established.

 

And Noah's Flood did not take place anywhere else but on Earth.

 

Therefore, if the garden of Eden was destroyed by Noah's Flood, it was also located on the planet Earth.

 

And the earth is not eternal.

 

It was created by god.

 

Therefore, Eden was created by god and cannot be eternal.

[walterpthefirst]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You might be starting to get it, Ed.  Let's entertain your train of thought for a moment.  Everything is a manifestation of god.  The Serpent is a manifestation of god.  Adam and Eve are manifestations of god.  The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... is a manifestation of god.  And therefore, Ed, therefore... Sin is a manifestation of god. 

 

And this is exactly what Walt has been attempting to explain.  If the bible is true, then god deliberately subjected his creation to sin as a manifestation of himself and his glory.  

 

And this means, by extension, that the entire idea of "redemption" is little more than a cosmic circle jerk.  god (the jesus manifestation) died to save god (the humanity manifestation) from god (the sin manifestation).  god died to save god from god.  If the bible is true, then this is ultimately the reality it presents.  A garbled collage of entanglement and blame.

 

This is yet another reason you should realize that the god of the bible sim ply cannot exist as the bible describes him.  If he does exist as the bible describes him, then he is the cause of sin, evil, and suffering.  Indeed, he is not just the cause of it, he is sin, evil, and suffering. 

 

Now, let's not take up too much more of Walt's thread, here, without his permission.  I'm happy to continue this line of reasoning with you in a different thread--the Suffering thread or even a new one.

 

You have my permission to post excellent stuff like this, Prof.

 

Please continue!

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

And this is a man who earlier said he was confused about predestination!

 

No longer!

 

Give the man a cigar!

Only because of your lesson. Thank you  

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

(Yawns.)

 

My bed is calling and so I leave this thread (till tomorrow) in the capable hands of the Prof and Dark Bishop.

 

Between you, you have all the bases covered.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

(Yawns.)

 

My bed is calling and so I leave this thread (till tomorrow) in the capable hands of the Prof and Dark Bishop.

 

Between you, you have all the bases covered.

 

Sleep well friend  

 

Looks like Ed may be reorganizing his thoughts to hold on to Christianity again anyway. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

54 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Sleep well friend  

 

Looks like Ed may be reorganizing his thoughts to hold on to Christianity again anyway. 

 

DB

Well here's a good place to start.  If everything and all are manifestations of God and God never changes, then how may those manifestations be made lower.

[Edgarcito]

Then DB you said search the scriptures.....James 1:13-14 regarding it's not God if it's temptation.  

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

54 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Then DB you said search the scriptures.....James 1:13-14 regarding it's not God if it's temptation.  

 

 

James 1

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

 

What does that have to do with God being omnipotent, omniscient, ever present, or predestination? You already saw in Job he doesn't tempt man. He allows Satan to tempt man. He just does not stop it. Which should be a sin of omission but there are better arguments you can make. 

 

I don't know if you were wanting to. But You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with walter. I told you, you had a good argument. Although I've already thought of a counter argument. But I'm not going to tell you in hopes that you will argue the point against Walter. I have an Idea how it might be countered but I want to see how it would pan out with a believer. My guess is you would still get overwhelmed, confused, and start cursing. But I hope not. I do have hope for you Ed. You hang on the cusp of finally connecting the dots and admitting its all bullshit. Or so it seems. Like what you said here. I will continue after this small rant.

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Well here's a good place to start.  If everything and all are manifestations of God and God never changes, then how may those manifestations be made lower.

 

Hmm? WTF? I have no idea how your theology works. You think Eden was a part of heaven and that's how you explain it in your head?

 

Dude,

These are just myths of nomadic sheep herders. They thought Eden was at the end of the river just like they thought Zeus dwelled on the nearest mountain peak above the clouds. It is no different. Except that Christians still believe the bullshit. 

 

Rant over:

 

@walterpthefirst before you counter this let's let Ed do some research and make an argument. I've longed to see the day when he would. Because I was true fundamentalist and believed a workman should study to show himself approved. I would like to see if Ed is a good workman. Since he claims to be Christian. 

 

So here is the argument. According to scripture God cannot deceive. He cannot lie. He cannot do that which is Evil. There is an abundant source of counter scriptures you could use to hammer this out. STUDY YOUR BIBLE!!! why are you letting an ExChristisn minister try to teach you how to be Christian? I'm sorry Ed. It is still my religious pet peeve. I feel like if you Claim Christ you have a standard to live up to. This is your messiah, your savior, your God. So study the Goddamn book. 

 

The ball is in your court. 

 

Dark Bishop

[Edgarcito]

11 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

James 1

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

 

What does that have to do with God being omnipotent, omniscient, ever present, or predestination? You already saw in Job he doesn't tempt man. He allows Satan to tempt man. He just does not stop it. Which should be a sin of omission but there are better arguments you can make. 

 

I don't know if you were wanting to. But You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with walter. I told you, you had a good argument. Although I've already thought of a counter argument. But I'm not going to tell you in hopes that you will argue the point against Walter. I have an Idea how it might be countered but I want to see how it would pan out with a believer. My guess is you would still get overwhelmed, confused, and start cursing. But I hope not. I do have hope for you Ed. You hang on the cusp of finally connecting the dots and admitting its all bullshit. Or so it seems. Like what you said here. I will continue after this small rant.

 

 

Hmm? WTF? I have no idea how your theology works. You think Eden was a part of heaven and that's how you explain it in your head?

 

Dude,

These are just myths of nomadic sheep herders. They thought Eden was at the end of the river just like they thought Zeus dwelled on the nearest mountain peak above the clouds. It is no different. Except that Christians still believe the bullshit. 

 

Rant over:

 

@walterpthefirst before you counter this let's let Ed do some research and make an argument. I've longed to see the day when he would. Because I was true fundamentalist and believed a workman should study to show himself approved. I would like to see if Ed is a good workman. Since he claims to be Christian. 

 

So here is the argument. According to scripture God cannot deceive. He cannot lie. He cannot do that which is Evil. There is an abundant source of counter scriptures you could use to hammer this out. STUDY YOUR BIBLE!!! why are you letting an ExChristisn minister try to teach you how to be Christian? I'm sorry Ed. It is still my religious pet peeve. I feel like if you Claim Christ you have a standard to live up to. This is your messiah, your savior, your God. So study the Goddamn book. 

 

The ball is in your court. 

 

Dark Bishop

You’re not understanding the discussion I believe… 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

31 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You’re not understanding the discussion I believe… 

No, I do not understand your side. I read the first page. A few in the middle. Usually skipped past yours. All the BS bickering you two like to do back and forth. And tried to get the gest of the conversation while focusing on what Walter was trying to show. Apparently I got it. 

     I had a good idea where he was going from the first page. And he rapped it up real nice in that last post he made that you didn't see. Because you muted him. Maybe there is a set of balls you put in a dresser somewhere you could find to do a little research and try to make a better argument. 

     But until then. I'm here talking while Walter sleeps. This ain't my thread. Just baby sittin it for a bit. I got some good out of it and hope you do to. 

 

Had to mention that bit about what you've been saying about Eden. Not that you acknowledged it. Do you not understand that Eden was not in Heaven? I can prove it a couple different ways if you wanna see it. Biblically. Cuz I studied it. Can you give me some scripture where it is in heaven or a part of it?

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

11 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Well here's a good place to start.  If everything and all are manifestations of God and God never changes, then how may those manifestations be made lower.

 

The same way that the house the man builds and the man himself are not the same thing.

 

As I said earlier, just because a man builds a house, he is not then forced to live within it.

 

In a similar way, god created time (where all change take places) but he is not forced by time to live within it.

 

Time is a constructed thing, like the house.

 

And both the house and time are lower manifestations of the man and of god.

[walterpthefirst]

9 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Then DB you said search the scriptures.....James 1:13-14 regarding it's not God if it's temptation.  

 

 

 

From god's p.o.v. its not temptation, Ed.

 

As far as he's concerned he can do what he likes with us and none of his actions are evil.  Like this...

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 24

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:37 AM, Edgarcito said:

So God in his unchanging nature was deceitful through Satan in the Garden?  That what your are saying?

 

Ok Ed, right here is where you got close. For all this predestination theology to work God would have not only had to deceive through Satan but at times knowingly lie, deceive, and commit evil acts. All in favor of his predestined and set in stone past present and future so that everything happened like he wanted it to. 

 

The bible says he can't do any of that. There are many scriptures that indicate this. If it were me. That is the point I would try to argue from right now. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

48 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

From god's p.o.v. its not temptation, Ed.

 

As far as he's concerned he can do what he likes with us and none of his actions are evil.  Like this...

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 24

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

 

Wow, There is a lot of ammo for predestination in there. This is one of the scriptures I saw while in the faith that just troubled me. So I kinda took a hybrid freewill/predestination stance like Ed. That at times for his plan he had predestined some to bring his will across like Pharoah. And that he predestined Christ to die one the cross. But that it was our free will for us to choose christ or not. Because there are scriptures that indicate it is a choice. But then there are scriptures that don't. 

 

The bible is such a cluster fuck of beliefs. 

 

DB