How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[walterpthefirst]

This thread is an offshoot of another thread in the Lion's Den.  

 

In this thread I will attempt to explain how two apparently irreconcilable and opposite things described in the bible can be harmonised.  These two things are god's eternal, timeless and unchanging nature versus his interactions with people within the count of elapsed time.  So, let's look at what scripture has to say about these two radically different qualities of god.  First, some verses that describe how god does not change - two from the Old Testament and two from the New.

 

Malachi 3 : 6

 

For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

 

Hebrews 13 : 8

 

“Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

 

James 1 : 17

 

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

 

 

Next, let's consider some examples from both testaments of how god interacted with people, appearing to react in response to their words and actions.  In the OT perhaps the two best examples are when he interacted personally with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and later with Moses, both up on Mount Sinai and at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting.  In the NT god is incarnated as Jesus and his interactions with people are described in the four gospels and the first chapter of the book of Acts.

 

So, what's going on here?

 

God is unchanging and therefore unable to react to anything because he already knows everything that is going to happen.  But in Eden he appears to be ignorant of Adam and Eve's disobedience and so he questions them about what they have done.  A truly all-knowing, all-seeing and eternal god wouldn't need to do this.  He would know in advance exactly what Adam and Eve had done.  So why is he acting as if he didn't know that they had disobeyed him?

 

The answer is that he is behaving this way, not because of his ignorance of anything, but for the benefit of the people he is interacting with.

 

I'm now going to post two videos that might raise a few surprised eyebrows.  But they both have a common theme and this theme also crops up in Psalm 139.  The theme is the human mind's inability to understand the true reality of fantastically powerful beings who have next to nothing in common with us.  I don't plan to explain anything much about the videos and how they relate to Psalm 139 until Edgarcito is properly ready to participate in this thread.  So, if other members ask me questions I'll politely request that they wait until Edgarcito is properly aboard.  Then all will be revealed and explained.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

 

[walterpthefirst]

 

[walterpthefirst]

Psalm 139 

 

Verses 1 to 18  (19 to 24 are not relevant to this thread.)

 

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

 

1 You have searched me, Lord,
    and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
    you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
    you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
    you, Lord, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
    and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

 

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
    Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
    if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
    if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
    your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
    and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
    the night will shine like the day,
    for darkness is as light to you.

 

13 For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
    How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
    they would outnumber the grains of sand—
    when I awake, I am still with you.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Somebody is a trekie!!!  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

Somebody is a trekie!!!  

We will all eventually be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

17 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We will all eventually be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

Existence as you know it is over. 

[mwc]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:38 PM, DarkBishop said:

Somebody is a trekie!!!  

     Nit pick.  One is Trek and the other is B5.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

Carrying on...

 

The common theme of the two videos and the quote from scripture is the inability of lesser beings to understand the workings, minds and motivations of vastly superior beings.

 

Starting with Babylon 5, the humanoid races currently living in the galaxy are like ants when compared to the First Ones.  These First Ones still seem to rely on technology, using starships to get around and in the later series of B5 we also see that they still have material bodies.  But the Organians in the Star Trek episode Errand of Mercy are much more like advanced, appearing to be god-like and to have god-like powers.  Humans, Klingons and Vulcans are like amoeba when compared to them.

 

Of the three named Organians, Trefayne became aware that eight Klingon battlecruisers has assumed orbit around the planet Organia, while he was seated at the table of the council chamber.  Mr. Spock could not confirm that, even with the highly advanced technology of his tricorder.

 

When the crisis came and the Federation and Klingon fleets were about to enter battle the Organian called Ayelborne put a stop to it and also immobilized all the Federation and Klingon forces, spread across thousands of light years of space.  He did it instantaneously, faster than the speed of light and faster than the speediest warp-powered starship.  He did it just by thinking about it, simultaneously spreading his presence from Organia to Earth and to the home planet of the Klingon empire.  Clearly such things as time and space had little meaning for him.  He was above and beyond such trivialities.  This was why he could also see into the future, to a time of peace between the Federation and the Klingon empire.  All of these qualities add up to a near god-like power. 

 

Finally, it was revealed that the Organians were so superior that they didn't even need physical bodies.  They were beings of pure thought and pure energy.  Indestructible and virtually immortal.  And therefore, almost incomprehensible to lesser beings like Kirk, Spock and the Klingon commander Kor.

 

And these qualities - the ability to ignore the limitations of time and space, the ability to wield fantastic power and the ability to know hidden things - bring us neatly to Psalm 139, written by King David about 2,500 years ago.  He was struggling to understand the might and power of god and finding him to be incomprehensible.  Very much as Catherine and G'kar found the First Ones to be beyond their understanding in Babylon 5 and very much as Kirk, Spock and Kor found the Organians to be in Star Trek.

 

Verses 1 to 4 of the Psalm describe god's ability to know everything.  Verse 5 describes god being present everywhere. Verse 6 expresses David's inability to comprehend these things.  Verses 7 to 12 repeat what was mentioned in verse 5, that god is present everywhere.  Verses 13 to 15 describe how god knows and controls things that are beyond David's understanding.  Verse 16 describes god's ability to fully know the past, present and future perfectly.  Finally, verses 17 and 18 once again describe how the full truth and reality of god is far beyond David's ability to comprehend.  So, instead of trying to understand god he celebrates and praises god for these wonderful things.

 

OK, so with these three examples I've have established a common theme.  We simply cannot understand and comprehend vastly superior beings who are either gods or who have god-like powers.  This then prompts the vital question...  how can we possibility interact with them?

 

 

Hint # 1 :  There is a clue in what G'Kar says between 1 : 10 and 1 : 40 in the Babylon 5 video.

 

 

Hint # 2 : 

There are two clues to this in the Star Trek video.  If you watch from 2:50 to 3:00 Ayelborn mentions it.  Kirk and Spock mention it between 4 : 07 and 4 : 20.

 

 

Hint # 3 :  The bible deals with how the problem of god's incomprehensibility was dealt with in the Gospels.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:22 PM, walterpthefirst said:

This thread is an offshoot of another thread in the Lion's Den.  

 

In this thread I will attempt to explain how two apparently irreconcilable and opposite things described in the bible can be harmonised.  These two things are god's eternal, timeless and unchanging nature versus his interactions with people within the count of elapsed time.  So, let's look at what scripture has to say about these two radically different qualities of god.  First, some verses that describe how god does not change - two from the Old Testament and two from the New.

 

Malachi 3 : 6

 

For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

 

Hebrews 13 : 8

 

“Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

 

James 1 : 17

 

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

 

 

Next, let's consider some examples from both testaments of how god interacted with people, appearing to react in response to their words and actions.  In the OT perhaps the two best examples are when he interacted personally with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and later with Moses, both up on Mount Sinai and at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting.  In the NT god is incarnated as Jesus and his interactions with people are described in the four gospels and the first chapter of the book of Acts.

 

So, what's going on here?

 

God is unchanging and therefore unable to react to anything because he already knows everything that is going to happen.  But in Eden he appears to be ignorant of Adam and Eve's disobedience and so he questions them about what they have done.  A truly all-knowing, all-seeing and eternal god wouldn't need to do this.  He would know in advance exactly what Adam and Eve had done.  So why is he acting as if he didn't know that they had disobeyed him?

 

The answer is that he is behaving this way, not because of his ignorance of anything, but for the benefit of the people he is interacting with.

 

I'm now going to post two videos that might raise a few surprised eyebrows.  But they both have a common theme and this theme also crops up in Psalm 139.  The theme is the human mind's inability to understand the true reality of fantastically powerful beings who have next to nothing in common with us.  I don't plan to explain anything much about the videos and how they relate to Psalm 139 until Edgarcito is properly ready to participate in this thread.  So, if other members ask me questions I'll politely request that they wait until Edgarcito is properly aboard.  Then all will be revealed and explained.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand why these questions would be important and hard to reconcile for a fundamentalist.  But for those of us who aren't... why would these apparent contradictions matter?  

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

I understand why these questions would be important and hard to reconcile for a fundamentalist.  But for those of us who aren't... why would these apparent contradictions matter?  

 

A fair question, RankStranger.

 

This thread was created by me for a fundamentalist.  Edgarcito to be specific.  I noticed that in another thread he was struggling to understand how god could be both eternal and unchanging, yet also seem to interact in real time with people.  This thread.  

 

Suffering for the Good of the World - Page 22 - The Lion's Den - Ex-Christian.Net

 

Posted yesterday at 03:41 PM

It really does seem that you are still struggling to understand why god is unchanging, Ed.

And how an unchanging god can appear to react and interact with people in real time.

That situation might change (pun intended) if you joined me in the thread I created for you.

There you might just learn how all of this works.

The offer still stands open.

It's up to you. 

 

 

If you look at the first post of this thread you can see that I explain how one thread gave birth to another.  I suppose that I should also have explained who it was for, as well as it's function.  So, my bad for not being clear enough RankStranger.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Let's say that it's all God, no free will for the sake of the discussion.  Here are my questions please:

 

A non-believer not yet "saved", one consciousness or two with God.

An immature believer, one consciousness or two with God

A mature believer, one consciousness or two with God.

 

Thanks.

[Edgarcito]

And let's just cut to the chase Walter.  Please explain in detail how David has "his" thoughts and God dictate the outcome of David's life.

 

Please be very specific.  Or maybe use a chess board analogy.  Anything will suffice.

 

Thanks.

[Edgarcito]

Here's a non-fundamentalist thought Walter, given you toss the disparaging term around so loosely.  Maybe our lives are like partial pressures......we are the sum of all the thing acting on us.....the environment, our bodies, God, Satan, the 73rd galaxy on the left.  Kind of like Forrest Gump said at the end of the movie...."maybe it's a little of both"....

 

As Biden would say, "Come on man"...

[walterpthefirst]

Thank you for joining me in this thread, Edgarcito.

 

 

I'm sorry to say that I'm not yet through explaining how the eternal changelessness of god can be successfully reconciled with how he appears to react and interact with people, within the count of time, as described in scripture.  Even though I created this thread with you in mind, let's not forget that others will be reading it.  I therefore need to proceed carefully, covering each point adequately so that it can be properly understood, not just by yourself, but by all.

 

You'll have noticed that I wasn't thorough enough in my opening explanation and RankStranger was somewhat confused.  To avoid that kind of problem happening again I need to proceed with due care.  This kind of thing can't be rushed because it isn't easy to understand.  If it were easy to understand then you and I wouldn't be here.  We would have covered this back in the Suffering for the Good of the World thread and moved on.

 

Therefore, I'm sorry but I can't answer your questions just yet.  I've not laid the groundwork fully enough to do that.  And I will also need to ask you some questions first.  About my opening post, about the two videos, about the quote from the book of Psalms and my then about what I posted 8 hours ago, with its three hints and the clues. 

 

I'm the one taking you through this because I am the one who can reconcile god's changelessness with his appearance of change.  Whereas, you are the one struggling to reconcile these two things.  Therefore, I must lead and you must follow.  Sure, you can ask me questions along the way, as we encounter things that you don't understand or need clarifying.  That's a given.  But I know the road we must go down and you don't.  So, once again, I'm sorry but your questions will have to wait until the proper times.

 

 

For the record, I did not apply the term fundamentalist to you disparagingly.  I used it because RankStranger first used it.  I used the term that he used so that he and I were singing from the same hymn sheet, metaphorically speaking.  If I was wrong, then I apologize.  If you don't consider yourself to be Christian fundamentalist, how would you like yourself to be referred to?  Please let me know so that I can follow your wishes.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

I appreciate your kindness Walter.   I don't want to answer questions.  I would please like you to make your case.  So please, no questions of me first.  I don't wish to get in that loop of me not answering adequately.

 

Thanks again, please take your time.  

[Edgarcito]

Another point that crosses my mind.  The body of Christ, the church, specifically meets to become one....not already one.  Communion speaks to this as well.

[Edgarcito]

How about John 17.....even Jesus is separate from God as a human....

[walterpthefirst]

30 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I appreciate your kindness Walter.   I don't want to answer questions.  I would please like you to make your case.  So please, no questions of me first.  I don't wish to get in that loop of me not answering adequately.

 

Thanks again, please take your time.  

 

Thank you, Edgarcito.  But your request puts me in a difficult position.

 

A fundamental principle of this forum that applies to all of its members is that questions can be asked with the reasonable expectation that they be answered.  If any member opts out of that principle then they are effectively asking for special treatment.  This then generates another problem.  If that happens, it sets a precedent and other members can then ask for the same thing.  And then where is the line to be drawn?  Do some get this special treatment and not others?  If so, who decides? Or is everyone going to opt out of answering questions?

 

Then there is also the not-so-small matter of the Moderator - member relationship.  When someone joins this forum they agree to abide by its rules and guidelines and it is not the members who set what the rules and guidelines are.  It is the Moderators and WebMaster Dave.  This forum is not a democracy where the way it is run can be decided by the members.  There is a hierarchy of authority, with ordinary members like you and me at the bottom.  And we don't decide how things are going to be run.

 

Therefore, you can request that you don't answer questions, Edgarcito.  But that's a request that's not within my power to grant.  If you want a special dispensation to not answer questions then please take it up with the Moderators.  I'm sorry, but I simply don't have the right or the authority to overturn the way this forum functions, just because you have asked.

 

Having said that - would you meet me halfway?

 

I did say that we would be working through this thread together.  So, if you agree to answer my questions as we proceed, I don't see a problem with answering yours.  Does that sound fair to you?

 

Btw, in case you are wondering why you should answer questions, here's the reason.  Your answers are my way of gauging if you've really understood the concepts I'm talking about.  If I just asked... "Did you follow and understand what I wrote about perfect love?" and you replied, "Yes." ...then I've only got your word that this is so.  Now, I'm not suggesting that you would lie, but you could be mistaken about what you think you understand or you could be overconfident about it.

 

But if you answer my questions correctly, then I'll know for sure that we are making progress together.  This is a time-honoured principle of learning, btw.  After a morning's math lesson if a teacher asked the class if they understood the algebra and they all said Yes, how would the teacher know for sure that they really did?  The only way to be sure would be to set them a test.  And what is a test except the asking of questions?

 

Anyway, I hope that we can agree to work together on this Edgarcito, using a give-and-take approach when it comes to questions.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Perhaps this situation needs to go to the supreme court??  

[Edgarcito]

I wasn’t saying I didn’t want to totally not answer questions… just I don’t wish to start by answering questions.  Will be happy to meet you half way.  Thx, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[walterpthefirst]

That's fine, Edgarcito.

 

Misunderstandings are bound to happen and if we can deal with them well, like this, that's cool too.

 

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

Ok, so back to the main theme.

 

I've given three examples, two from SF and one from the bible where lesser beings are struggling to understand the minds and motivations of massively superior beings.  That's the common theme here.  In the SF humans are compared to ants or amoeba to these god-like beings.  And in scripture David's mind can't encompass the vastness and power of god.  Assuming you're on board with this idea Edgarcito and can see how it works, we now need to ask ourselves a three questions.

 

 

If there's to be any communication between us and these fantastically powerful beings, who has to set up the mode of communication... us or them?

 

Why that option?

 

And can we think of any existing mode of communication between us a fantastically powerful being that we cannot properly comprehend?

 

 

Please have a go at answering as many of these as you can.  If you're stuck or need help, just say so.  I'll do what I can to assist.  And please remember that there's no time pressure here.  If things get busy at your end, as they did the other day, that's not a problem.  We'll go together at your pace, ok?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

p.s.

I did drop hints and clues about the answers to these questions yesterday.  The ones where you listen to the dialogue in the videos.  But if that's all a bit confusing, just ignore and I'll explain about them later on.

[Edgarcito]

I don't understand what you are trying to describe here Walter.  I thought we were talking about being predestined but also being separate.  Would like you to please just be very simple and succinct in your description of how this happens.  I don't wish to follow a trail.  Thanks.

[RankStranger]

Looks like this question isn't too important to a fundamentalist either 

 

Why is this question important to you, Walter?  Did you just want to point out an apparent contradiction for the sake of discussion, or is there something more you're getting at?