How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

You're missing the point "in his image".  

 

Please explain.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok then, if you understand that omniscience is an absolute that can have nothing added to it, please explain how god's omniscience can change in any way?

Can we finish with the omnipotence first?  Does it not appear that God checks/removes humanity from that rather than using his potency to wipe them out of existence?  Does that not show up on your radar?

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

Can we finish with the omnipotence first?  Does it not appear that God checks/removes humanity from that rather than using his potency to wipe them out of existence?  Does that not show up on your radar?

 

We ARE talking about omnipotence in this thread.

 

I haven't changed the subject  of this thread - which is how an omnipotent god does not change.

 

If nothing can be added to god's eternal abilities and characteristics then he cannot change.

 

It's that simple.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

We ARE talking about omnipotence in this thread.

 

I haven't changed the subject  of this thread - which is how an omnipotent god does not change.

 

If nothing can be added to god's eternal abilities and characteristics then he cannot change.

 

It's that simple.

 

 

I read omniscience.....you posted omniscience.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Can we finish with the omnipotence first?  Does it not appear that God checks/removes humanity from that rather than using his potency to wipe them out of existence?  Does that not show up on your radar?

 

No.  It doesn't.  

 

And it doesn't show up on the radar of scripture or Christian belief either.

 

Nowhere in standard Christianity is it believed that humanity was ever omnipotent.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I read omniscience.....you posted omniscience.  Thx.

 

Ok, my bad.

 

But surely you understood this?

 

What Is the Omnipotence of God? Definition and Bible Meaning (christianity.com)

 

Our English word “omnipotence” originates from Latin. “Omni” means all, and “potent” means power. Thus, when we speak of the omnipotence of God, we declare Him All Powerful or All Mighty.

Three “omnis” of God credit to Him, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. These three acknowledge Him as All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Present (or everywhere present). All three involve the other two as a whole and are inseparable attributes of God.

 

God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence cannot be separated.

Would you like me to explain why they cannot be separated?

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No.  It doesn't.  

 

And it doesn't show up on the radar of scripture or Christian belief either.

 

Nowhere in standard Christianity is it believed that humanity was ever omnipotent.

 

 

Damn sure does Walter.  He punishes them and remove them from Eden.  He wipes out most of creation but not all.  He suffers rather than sending us all to Hell.  And those are just the three biggies in the discussion.  This ain't rocket science here sir.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

Damn sure does Walter.  He punishes them and remove them from Eden.  He wipes out most of creation but not all.  He suffers rather than sending us all to Hell.  And those are just the three biggies in the discussion.  This ain't rocket science here sir.

 

Ok then.

 

Quote me the scripture that says that man is omnipotent.

 

If you can't then it never happened.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok then.

 

Quote me the scripture that says that man is omnipotent.

 

If you can't then it never happened.

"In his image".  Ask the ants I don't want in my garden.  Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Ask the little girl John keeps mentioning.  We have that nature to be objectively omnipotent...to use that.  Right, not in the exact definition, but created in that image.

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

"In his image".  Ask the ants I don't want in my garden.  Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Ask the little girl John keeps mentioning.  We have that nature to be objectively omnipotent...to use that.  Right, not in the exact definition, but created in that image.

 

Ok, in god's image but without the knowledge of good and evil, right?

 

So how can man be omnipotent if he has no understanding of good and evil?

 

Btw, you are on record as agreeing that man did not acquire his true understanding of good and evil until after he ate the forbidden fruit.

 

So, before that moment how can he have been omnipotent?

 

Don't forget that after that moment man was spiritually dead.

 

So, how can he have been omnipotent if he was spiritually dead?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

"In his image".  Ask the ants I don't want in my garden.  Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Ask the little girl John keeps mentioning.  We have that nature to be objectively omnipotent...to use that.  Right, not in the exact definition, but created in that image.

 

Oh, I just noticed this.

 

If we agree that omnipotence is an absolute how can man's omnipotence be anything else but exactly the same as god's? 

 

There are no degrees of omnipotence.

 

There's no such thing as 99% omnipotent.

 

It either is or isn't.

 

Not quite the same definition means not omnipotent.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, in god's image but without the knowledge of good and evil, right?

 

So how can man be omnipotent if he has no understanding of good and evil?

 

Btw, you are on record as agreeing that man did not acquire his true understanding of good and evil until after he ate the forbidden fruit.

 

So, before that moment how can he have been omnipotent?

 

Don't forget that after that moment man was spiritually dead.

 

So, how can he have been omnipotent if he was spiritually dead?

 

 

Shit if I know Walter, but we did notice how Eve had the ability to desire, right?  

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Oh, I just noticed this.

 

If we agree that omnipotence is an absolute how can man's omnipotence be anything else but exactly the same as god's? 

 

There are no degrees of omnipotence.

 

There's no such thing as 99% omnipotent.

 

It either is or isn't.

 

Not quite the same definition means not omnipotent.

Because it's not.  Maybe because we could look up the word image and see how it's different or "lower than" and that all this implies separation rather than a predestined manifestation.

 

Very good stuff here this morning but I truly have to pay attention to my lab.  I shall return.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

29 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Shit if I know Walter, but we did notice how Eve had the ability to desire, right?  

 

What's that got to do it?

 

You can't make a case from scripture that man was ever omnipotent, can you?

 

But if we're going to carry on, let me ask you this.

 

You say that man became omnipotent when god breathed upon his lifeless body and created him in his image, right?

 

So, what happened here, in John 19 - 23 ?

 

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 

20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 

23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

Were the disciples made omnipotent when god breathed new life into them?

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

What's that got to do it?

 

You can't make a case from scripture that man was ever omnipotent, can you?

 

But if we're going to carry on, let me ask you this.

 

You say that man became omnipotent when god breathed upon his lifeless body and created him in his image, right?

 

So, what happened here, in John 19 - 23 ?

 

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 

20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 

23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

We're the disciples made omnipotent when god breathed new life into them?

I thought Jesus passed on God's "glory"....has been too long not studying sir.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

I have the time, so let me look up the original NT Greek for you, Ed.

 

Scripture4All Interlinear: Hebrews 2

 

Verse 7...

 

     ELATTOSAS          AUTON        BRACHU      TI         PAR       AGGELOUS  

you-make-inferior          him              bit            any     beside     messenger

 

Thou  madest  him  a  little  lower  than  the  angels

 

 

Strong's Greek: 1642. ἐλαττόω (elattoó) -- to make less (in rank or influence) (biblehub.com)

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I thought Jesus passed on God's "glory"....has been too long not studying sir.  Thx.

 

Ok, but you're not grasping the main point.

 

If man was made omnipotent when god breathed on Adam and lost that omnipotence through sin, when he regained it through Jesus everyone born again of the holy spirit since that time should be omnipotent.

 

That is your argument, Yes?

 

 

So then why is it that Christian's prayers don't work 100% of the time?

 

Why is it that Christians can't raise the dead 100% of time?

 

Why is it that Christians can't regrow the limbs of amputees?

 

Why is that Christians can't walk on water, drink deadly poison and pick up venomous snakes without being bitten?

 

 

That's what it means to be omnipotent.

 

It means to have infallible power.

 

 

So where is this infallible power in your life?

[Edgarcito]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, but you're not grasping the main point.

 

If man was made omnipotent when god breathed on Adam and lost that omnipotence through sin, when he regained it through Jesus everyone born again of the holy spirit since that time should be omnipotent.

 

That is your argument, Yes?

 

 

So then why is it that Christian's prayers don't work 100% of the time?

 

Why is it that Christians can't raise the dead 100% of time?

 

Why is it that Christians can't regrow the limbs of amputees?

 

Why is that Christians can't walk on water, drink deadly poison and pick up venomous snakes without being bitten?

 

 

That's what it means to be omnipotent.

 

It means to have infallible power.

 

 

So where is this infallible power in your life?

I'm still waiting for you to show me predestination and a real time God and the same time.  I thought that was the point of this thread.  These last few posts were just a tangent based on your omnipotence declaration.  Would you like to continue, because I still don't have a clue how your original inputs are going to lead to the aforementioned.

 

Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm still waiting for you to show me predestination and a real time God and the same time.  I thought that was the point of this thread.  These last few posts were just a tangent based on your omnipotence declaration.  Would you like to continue, because I still don't have a clue how your original inputs are going to lead to the aforementioned.

 

Thx.

 

I know that, Ed.

 

That was going to be the final part of the presentation that I was laying out.  How an eternal and unchanging god appears to interact and react with us in real time.  I can still do that, but the going will significantly harder for you if you hold to your unorthodox views about omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.

 

If you recall I said from the outset that this was going to be a process and as you can surely grasp, working in a science lab, you simply cannot bypass certain necessary steps in a process and still expect to get either the desired result or even a useful one.

 

The crux of the matter is that the three 'O's, omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are inseparable and work together, making god unique.  If you don't have that understanding on board or if you think that lesser beings like angels and humans can have them as well, then the show's off.  You will never be able to see, let alone accept how predestination works for an eternal god interacting in real time with human beings.

 

My argument in this thread was always going to be sequential, with one point being made and the next point building on that.  But at the moment were stuck on the point before last - god's three 'O's.  I'm still not persuaded that you really grasp that they are absolute conditions and that there's no such thing as partial omniscience.  You've agreed that they can't be added to and I hope that you also agree about what I said about the perfection of god's characteristics. 

 

That the perfection of love, goodness, wisdom, justice and morality are also absolute conditions.  Which, since god is eternal means that none of them can ever change either.  For exactly the same reasons I mentioned earlier.  If they cannot be added to and if god is never less than perfection then his nature never changes.  He was, is and always will be perfection - the apex, maximum and zenith of these things.

 

Please also remember that I'm strictly toeing the scriptural line here.  Nowhere does the bible say or even hint that god is anything less than the three 'O's and the perfection of love, etc.  

 

With all due respect Ed, unless and until we thrash out how only god (and not man) has ever been omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, things will be very difficult indeed.  We are stuck at a point near the end of the process and you are quite close to understanding how an eternal and unchanging god can seem to interact and react with humans in real time.  This will, of course, neatly explain predestination.

 

If you want me to finish the process with the three 'O's unresolved I can do that.  But don't blame me if you find the end results confusing or difficult to accept.  They would be neither if we could settle the issue of the three 'O's.  It's your call.

 

 

But before you commit yourself, could we please look at this together?  It's absolutely vital.

 

What Is the Omnipotence of God? Definition and Bible Meaning (christianity.com)

 

Our English word “omnipotence” originates from Latin. “Omni” means all, and “potent” means power. Thus, when we speak of the omnipotence of God, we declare Him All Powerful or All Mighty.

Three “omnis” of God credit to Him, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. These three acknowledge Him as All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Present (or everywhere present). All three involve the other two as a whole and are inseparable attributes of God.

 

Do you see how omnipotence requires omniscience and omnipresence?

That, if you are not omnipresent and omniscient, you cannot be omnipotent?

And the same equation works equally between the three?

That if you lack one, you don't have the other two?

Or, if you have one you must automatically have the other two?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

23 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Do you see how omnipotence requires omniscience and omnipresence?

That, if you are not omnipresent and omniscient, you cannot be omnipotent?

And the same equation works equally between the three?

That if you lack one, you don't have the other two?

Or, if you have one you must automatically have the other two?

 

No, truthfully, I don't make the connection.  For example, if we equate a room filled with atmosphere to all of creation and I knew everything there was to know about that room, right down to the physical and chemical properties that even man doesn't understand, this would be omniscient.  And if I were present in the room, then this would be omnipresent.  So now we are to omnipotent.  And I'm being sincere here, not argumentative or stubborn, but honest.  How do these two attributes dictate omnipotent? 

 

And what about omniscience.  Isn't grace essentially knowing more and not having the necessity to demonstrate it?

And omnipotent, the ability to be ultimately powerful, but to show deference to weakness?

 

Aren't the attributes of Christ, God as a man?

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, truthfully, I don't make the connection. 

 

 

That's ok, let's explore your examples.

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

 

For example, if we equate a room filled with atmosphere to all of creation and I knew everything there was to know about that room, right down to the physical and chemical properties that even man doesn't understand, this would be omniscient. 

 

 

Yes, you would be omniscient, but only in the context of that room.  

 

But there are two flaws in that argument, Ed.  The first is, as a human being, you can never know everything there is to know about that room.  Quantum uncertainty prevents you from knowing the exact location, velocities and energies of all of the particles in that room.  So your argument is predicated upon an impossibility.  Impossible arguments are, by definition, invalid.

 

But according to scripture, god can and does know everything in that room.  It is trivially easy for him.  The limitations imposed upon us by quantum uncertainty don't apply to god.

 

The second flaw in your argument is that you have taken a tiny, limited volume of space and posited that knowing everything about it equals omniscience.  But that is not what omniscience is.  There is no such thing as omniscience in the context of a limited space.  There is no such thing as limited omniscience.  Period.

 

Omniscience means knowing everything there is to know about everything there is.  Not just a room.  Not just the Earth.  Not just our galaxy or the observable universe.  Everything.  The whole of creation, which would include the rest of the universe that extends (possibly forever), far beyond the limits of what we can see.

 

Do you understand? 

 

If you limit omniscience to anything less than everything, then it is not omniscience.  It is very great knowledge, but it is not omniscient knowledge.  Unless you know EVERYTHING that can be known about EVERYTHING that is, it doesn't qualify as omniscience.

 

And that is why neither men nor angels can be omniscient.  Only god can be and is.

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

 

 

And if I were present in the room, then this would be omnipresent.  So now we are to omnipotent.  And I'm being sincere here, not argumentative or stubborn, but honest.  How do these two attributes dictate omnipotent? 

 

No.  For the reasons given above, your line of argument is flawed and invalid.

 

As a human you cannot achieve that level of knowledge and even if you did, well so what?  Complete knowledge of a limited volume of space isn't omniscience.  Omni means ALL.  If you don't know ALL then you are not Omni.

 

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

And what about omniscience.  Isn't grace essentially knowing more and not having the necessity to demonstrate it?

And omnipotent, the ability to be ultimately powerful, but to show deference to weakness?

 

Aren't the attributes of Christ, God as a man?

 

You have a serious misunderstanding about the absolute and total nature of the three 'O's, Ed.

 

Until that is cleared up any arguments you make on that false basis will be flawed and invalid.

 

So, I'll ask you again.

 

Would you like me to explain to you how god's omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence cannot be separated?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

If it helps Ed, try this.

 

Is there such a thing a 75% of infinity?

 

Infinity - Wikipedia

 

Infinity Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

Infinity | Definition, Symbol, & Facts | Britannica

 

Infinity definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary (collinsdictionary.com)

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's ok, let's explore your examples.

 

 

Yes, you would be omniscient, but only in the context of that room.  

 

But there are two flaws in that argument, Ed.  The first is, as a human being, you can never know everything there is to know about that room.  Quantum uncertainty prevents you from knowing the exact location, velocities and energies of all of the particles in that room.  So your argument is predicated upon an impossibility.  Impossible arguments are, by definition, invalid.

 

But according to scripture, god can and does know everything in that room.  It is trivially easy for him.  The limitations imposed upon us by quantum uncertainty don't apply to god.

 

The second flaw in your argument is that you have taken a tiny, limited volume of space and posited that knowing everything about it equals omniscience.  But that is not what omniscience is.  There is no such thing as omniscience in the context of a limited space.  There is no such thing as limited omniscience.  Period.

 

Omniscience means knowing everything there is to know about everything there is.  Not just a room.  Not just the Earth.  Not just our galaxy or the observable universe.  Everything.  The whole of creation, which would include the rest of the universe that extends (possibly forever), far beyond the limits of what we can see.

 

Do you understand? 

 

If you limit omniscience to anything less than everything, then it is not omniscience.  It is very great knowledge, but it is not omniscient knowledge.  Unless you know EVERYTHING that can be known about EVERYTHING that is, it doesn't qualify as omniscience.

 

And that is why neither men nor angels can be omniscient.  Only god can be and is.

 

 

No.  For the reasons given above, your line of argument is flawed and invalid.

 

As a human you cannot achieve that level of knowledge and even if you did, well so what?  Complete knowledge of a limited volume of space isn't omniscience.  Omni means ALL.  If you don't know ALL then you are not Omni.

 

 

 

You have a serious misunderstanding about the absolute and total nature of the three 'O's, Ed.

 

Until that is cleared up any arguments you make on that false basis will be flawed and invalid.

 

So, I'll ask you again.

 

Would you like me to explain to you how god's omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence cannot be separated?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

Do you just not get and example.  The room was everything God covers, and I INCLUDED the understanding beyond ours.  Do you just not do examples?  

 

Never mind Walter.  I'm tired of the attempts at conversation.  Have the Prof shut it down.  Thanks for the effort.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

27 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Have the Prof shut it down. 

Not thy will, but mine, be done.

 

Proceed, please, Walt.  If Ed no longer wishes to participate, that is within his free will.  But others might benefit from your efforts. 

 

The Prof thy Mod hath spoken. 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

If it helps Ed, try this.

 

Is there such a thing a 75% of infinity?

 

Infinity - Wikipedia

 

Infinity Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

Infinity | Definition, Symbol, & Facts | Britannica

 

Infinity definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary (collinsdictionary.com)

 

 

 

 

 

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