How can a timeless and unchanging god appear to react and change when interacting with humans?

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Looks like this question isn't too important to a fundamentalist either 

 

Why is this question important to you, Walter?  Did you just want to point out an apparent contradiction for the sake of discussion, or is there something more you're getting at?

I beg your pardon sir.  We sing not three hymns before the opening prayer, but four.  Then the greeting, children's sermon, sermon, passing of the plate, followed by more hymns and off to Sunday lunch.  Fundamentalist, ha.....I laugh in your general direction...

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't understand what you are trying to describe here Walter.  I thought we were talking about being predestined but also being separate.  Would like you to please just be very simple and succinct in your description of how this happens.  I don't wish to follow a trail.  Thanks.

 

That's ok, Edgarcito.

 

You don't understand yet.  That's because if we're going to reach a logical understanding of predestination, we first have to understand more about god's nature.

 

I'm sorry to say that this thread will be a trail. 

 

Until we go along it to a certain point you won't be able to reach that 'Aha!' moment when everything clicks and you finally understand why god predestines people.  No quick and easy answer to your questions about predestination can be given right at the start, when you don't yet have the necessary understanding of god's nature.

 

If it helps, think of it this way.  You don't teach schoolkids high-level algebra and calculus when they first start to learn math.  You start them on addition, subtraction, division and multiplication.  They have to get the easier stuff under their belt first before going on to the harder stuff. 

 

If I just laid out a very simple and succinct description of this topic for you to pore over then you wouldn't grasp the full meaning of it.  You still wouldn't be able to understand what I've been saying the Suffering for the Good of the World thread.  And surely the purpose of this thread is to help you do that?  To help you understand?

 

As I said earlier in this thread, I can't ask you no questions at all.  You have to answer some.  But we did agree that you could ask me questions, didn't we?  We will meet each other halfway, right?  So, I'm sorry but questions will come and they are necessary.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

If there's to be any communication between us and these fantastically powerful beings, who has to set up the mode of communication... us or them?

 

Why that option?

 

And can we think of any existing mode of communication between us a fantastically powerful being that we cannot properly comprehend?

 

 

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Would you like me to rephrase these questions in a different way, Ed?

 

So you can have another go at trying to answer them?

[RankStranger]

49 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I beg your pardon sir.  We sing not three hymns before the opening prayer, but four.  Then the greeting, children's sermon, sermon, passing of the plate, followed by more hymns and off to Sunday lunch.  Fundamentalist, ha.....I laugh in your general direction...

 

Sorry, I just assumed you were a fundamentalist, based on Walter's comment.  Apologies if that's not correct.

 

I'm a Christian, but not a fundamentalist.  I haven't yet earned your Authentic Christian Believer tag, but I'm working on it 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I haven't yet earned your Authentic Christian Believer tag, but I'm working on it 

If you'd like one, just ask.  I'd be happy to accommodate; I just didn't want to presume.

[Edgarcito]

39 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

Sorry, I just assumed you were a fundamentalist, based on Walter's comment.  Apologies if that's not correct.

 

I'm a Christian, but not a fundamentalist.  I haven't yet earned your Authentic Christian Believer tag, but I'm working on it 

Attempting to be funny RS.  I don't consider myself a fundamentalist at all...rather I'm a read between the lines type.  I never knew you were a Christian, remembering from the old days....always thought you were a staunch non-believer.

[RankStranger]

35 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If you'd like one, just ask.  I'd be happy to accommodate; I just didn't want to presume.

 

Let's make it happen.

 

Does this limit where I can post?

[RankStranger]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

Attempting to be funny RS.  I don't consider myself a fundamentalist at all...rather I'm a read between the lines type.  I never knew you were a Christian, remembering from the old days....always thought you were a staunch non-believer.

 

I was, for over 30 years.  But life happens 

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I was, for over 30 years.  But life happens 

Good deal sir.

[Edgarcito]

52 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

If there's to be any communication between us and these fantastically powerful beings, who has to set up the mode of communication... us or them?

 

Why that option?

 

And can we think of any existing mode of communication between us a fantastically powerful being that we cannot properly comprehend?

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Would you like me to rephrase these questions in a different way, Ed?

 

So you can have another go at trying to answer them?

No sir, I just would like you to explain your take on the subject without having to lead me down some path that you would like me to follow.  

 

I'm understanding that you believe the Bible's view leaves us with no free will.....that would make us totally subjective.  On one level, given we are the subjects of the universe and an earthly environment, we are ultimately subjective in that respect.  But my perception also is one of objective, in that I can comprehend and behave in an objective manner.  

 

I'm gathering that you're saying that God can act in real time and we will perceive it as not-one with God, but still destined by God.  Again, I would like you to be very detailed and succinct describing how this occurs, the Oneness when there are so many verses in the Bible that delineate God, Jesus, and humanity.

 

As I stated in the beginning, I don't want you to ask me questions for me to guess or learn as we go down some path, but just state your thoughts.

 

Thanks.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No sir, I just would like you to explain your take on the subject without having to lead me down some path that you would like me to follow.  

 

I'm understanding that you believe the Bible's view leaves us with no free will.....that would make us totally subjective.  On one level, given we are the subjects of the universe and an earthly environment, we are ultimately subjective in that respect.  But my perception also is one of objective, in that I can comprehend and behave in an objective manner.  

 

I'm gathering that you're saying that God can act in real time and we will perceive it as not-one with God, but still destined by God.  Again, I would like you to be very detailed and succinct describing how this occurs, the Oneness when there are so many verses in the Bible that delineate God, Jesus, and humanity.

 

As I stated in the beginning, I don't want you to ask me questions for me to guess or learn as we go down some path, but just state your thoughts.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

This is what you wrote yesterday Edgarcito.

 

 

I wasn’t saying I didn’t want to totally not answer questions… just I don’t wish to start by answering questions.  Will be happy to meet you half way.  Thx, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

 

Unless I'm very much mistaken this is you agreeing to answer some questions.

 

 

Also, how can you be happily meeting me halfway in this thread if you are the one setting conditions under which I am allowed to ask you questions?

 

 

This thread will slow to a near halt if you force my hand and make me negotiate with you over what you will or won't accept.  Or, it could even come to a complete standstill and get nowhere, because you will not do what everyone is expected to do in this forum - answer questions.  Then, because I won't just state my thoughts so that you can read them, the Prof will be obliged to lock it up.  Either forever or until such time as you do agree to answer my questions without setting the conditions under which I must do so.  

 

I would remind you that you've already thanked me for the kindness I've shown you and that I've already taken the time and trouble to create this thread especially for you.  My first four posts were gratis.  I put them there freely and I asked nothing of you in return.  You got them for free and had to do no work and answer no questions at all. 

 

Then there's also the planning and thinking I've done in preparation for this thread.  I have notes that lay out what we will discuss, what bible quotes I will use and the necessary steps and points we have to cover to get from start to finish of the process.  This is the process of helping you learn from a logical analysis of scripture why god predestines people.  These notes and of all this work wait in readiness for you.

 

Readiness for you to meet me halfway, as you agreed.

 

Now, to show that I'm not inflexible Edgarcito, I'm going to yield more ground to you and reduce the number of questions from three down to just one.  And I'll also rephrase it to make it clearer and easier to understand.

 

 

What does the bible call the mode of communication that god has set up between himself and all believers?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

If there's to be any communication between us and these fantastically powerful beings, who has to set up the mode of communication... us or them?

 

Why that option?

 

And can we think of any existing mode of communication between us a fantastically powerful being that we cannot properly comprehend?

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Would you like me to rephrase these questions in a different way, Ed?

 

So you can have another go at trying to answer them?

Several factors Walter.  I’m still understanding we are within the Christian context.  God created humanity with the ability to communicate w God, that in subjection.  Humans having objective qualities, we will notice that God allows now for communication through prayer and the Holy Spirit.  And through the Bible certainly.  Nature I expect as well.  But the point is it’s our option at the moment given our qualities.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Several factors Walter.  I’m still understanding we are within the Christian context.  God created humanity with the ability to communicate w God, that in subjection.  Humans having objective qualities, we will notice that God allows now for communication through prayer and the Holy Spirit.  And through the Bible certainly.  Nature I expect as well.  But the point is it’s our option at the moment given our qualities.  

Ed, thank you for this thoughtful and thorough response.  This is exactly the kind of communion, grace, and relationship stuff that leads to understanding. 

 

We're all pulling for you, buddy.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Several factors Walter.  I’m still understanding we are within the Christian context.  God created humanity with the ability to communicate w God, that in subjection.  Humans having objective qualities, we will notice that God allows now for communication through prayer and the Holy Spirit.  And through the Bible certainly.  Nature I expect as well.  But the point is it’s our option at the moment given our qualities.  

 

Thank you, Edgarcito.

 

Now the essential point to understand here is that we, the lesser beings, who cannot properly understand god, did not put these modes of communication in place.

 

The communication wasn't planned, organized and initiated from us, upwards to god.  It was planned, organized and initiated by god, downward to us.  According to scripture he did the creating of humanity.  We didn't create ourselves with the ability to communicate with god.  He sent the Holy Spirit to us.  We didn't request the sending.  He opened the way for our prayers to reach him and, in the shape of Jesus, blessed and formalized how we should pray, telling us the words of the Lord's Prayer.  We didn't play any part in that - it came from him.  Lastly, through divine inspiration he gave his Word to spread around the world.  Again, this did not come from us - it came from him.

 

None of the above was our doing - it was his. 

 

And this is the common theme I was referring to in the two videos and the Psalm that I posted earlier.  We, the lesser beings cannot initiate contact with or communicate with vastly superior beings on their terms.  Their minds and ways are too far above us.  King David said so about god in the Psalm.  G'kar said so about the First Ones in that Babylon 5 video.  And Captain Kirk discovered that for himself in the Star Trek video.

 

In fact he was told how things work by Ayelborn, the god-like Organian.  All of the fields, villages and castles seen on the planet by the Federation and Klingon forces were there for appearances sake, so that visitors like them would have something that they could relate to.  These material things were useless to the Organians.  They no longer had any need for them.  They no longer had any need for physical bodies either.   But they assumed humanoid form so that lesser beings like humans and Klingons could interact with them on a humanoid level.

 

In a very similar way, the god of the bible has no need for anything at all.  It works the other way round.  Everything needs him.  So, he had no need of a physical, human body.  Such a thing would be useless to him.  It would bind him to one period of time and one location in space.  Why would he need a human body with all of its limitations when he is everywhere and everywhen?  When he is even greater than time and space?  Why would he want to become a man?  A carpenter's son?

 

There are two reasons that are relevant to this thread.

 

The first and most obvious is that by becoming Jesus god could put right the damage that happened in Eden.  The second is that by becoming a man god made it possible for other people to relate to him on the same level.  Person-to-person.  Face-to-face communication.  God took on the appearance of something we could relate to, not for his sake, but for our sake.  And now the key point that you need to wrap your head around is coming up, Edgarcito!

 

 

God did not need to limit himself by becoming human.  But by doing so he became just as limited as we are and was obliged to react and interact with us on our level, just as we do with each other.  The fact that he appeared to change as human beings change does not mean that he himself actually changed.  That neither his mind or his nature changed in any way.  Any changes that he seemed to undergo were just a function of the limitations he imposed upon himself by becoming human. 

 

In reality, because god is eternal he does not and cannot change.  (This will be explained later.)  But when he was Jesus the changes that he appeared to undergo were done, not because he actually changed in any way but they were done for our sake - so that we could relate to them.  

 

Just because the Orgainians had humanoid bodies that didn't mean this was their true form.  In the same way, just because Jesus once had an ordinary human body on Earth, that doesn't mean that this was his true form.  His true form was first revealed when he was transfigured, high up on the mountain.  Then later on, in his resurrection body.  In that true form Jesus' fatal wounds did not harm him.  And he could ignore the limitations of space and time, instantly appearing to his followers in a locked room, disappearing in front of the eyes of Cleopas on the road to Emmaus and lastly ascending into the heavens in the sight of his disciples.

 

In a nutshell Edgarcito, just realize this. 

 

Any changes that seem to happen to god in scripture are not true changes to his nature, his mind or his intent.  They are simply done so that we can relate to him.

 

 

 

Please ask me any questions you like about this.  That was our agreement.  We would meet each other halfway.  You have answered me and now I will answer you.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

I  can comprehend that Walter… but please clarify “damage” with respect to God’s nature, mind, and intent.  Thx.  

[Edgarcito]

Are you saying God had dichotomous intent?  

[Edgarcito]

If Jesus and God are One, then you’re saying that Jesus was the deception of Satan?  You sure you want to go there?

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I  can comprehend that Walter… but please clarify “damage” with respect to God’s nature, mind, and intent.  Thx.  

 

I can't do that right now, Ed.   Sorry.

 

That's because we've yet to tackle god's nature, mind and intent.

 

That's linked to his eternal nature and why he does not change.

 

I've promised that I will explain this to you.

 

When we do that we will gain an insight into his mind and intent.

 

And then we can loop right back to this, your question about damage, ok?

 

But for now, can we just go with the idea that Eden was changed and god took human form (Jesus) to rectify that change?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Are you saying God had dichotomous intent?  

 

Same as before.

 

We'll know more about god's intent once we get to his eternal nature and why he does not change.

 

The same promise holds good too.

 

When we get there this question will be addressed.

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

If Jesus and God are One, then you’re saying that Jesus was the deception of Satan?  You sure you want to go there?

 

Hmmm...

 

Not quite sure I follow this.

 

But, since I haven't dealt with Satan directly yet, can we leave him out of the equation for now and return to his role later?

 

Our first priority is to understand god's nature, mind and intent better.

 

Once we've done that we can deal with Satan, ok?

 

Same promise as before - the question will be addressed.

[walterpthefirst]

However, Edgarito...

 

 

Yesterday I asked you for one mode of communication between god and humans and you gave me five.

 

That's excellent.

 

You also understood that I was talking within the context of Christianity.

 

This shows that you are focused, paying close attention and thinking hard.

 

We are making good progress here.   Thank you.

 

 

Next up, possibly later today or some time tomorrow, we can start on god's mind and intent in relation to his eternal nature.

 

And, as promised, what we discover there will feed back neatly into your questions.

 

Which will not be forgotten or bypassed - they are important!

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

Ok then Edgarcito, let's resume with a recap.

 

Any changes that seem to happen to god in scripture are not true changes to his nature, his mind or his intent.  They are simply done so that we can relate to him.

 

You said that you could comprehend this and you also had some additional questions, which will become relevant soon and which will soon be answered.  Thank you for your patience.

 

 

All being well, our next step is to get into the meat of understanding more about god's mind and intent and how these things are linked to his nature and his character.  We're going to treat scripture at face value and also take the standard Christian beliefs about god as givens, applying logic to both of these things.  Doing this shouldn't be a problem and we should both be on the same page when we do this.  

 

First off we'll compile two lists.  One of god's powers and abilities and the other of his personal characteristics.  This should be easy enough and I'll even start off both lists with some examples.  In no particular order...

 

God is all powerful (omnipotent).

God is everywhere (omnipresent).

God is eternal, existing outside of time.  

God is all knowing.

God sees everything in creation.

God is the creator of everything.

God is complete within himself, needing nothing else to be himself.

God is infallible.

God has free will.

 

When it comes to his character and personality...

 

God is perfect love.

God is perfect goodness.

God is perfect justice.

God is perfect wisdom.

God is perfectly moral.

 

We're making two lists here because its a standard Christian belief that god is a person, just like you and me.  We have abilities and personal characteristics.  These combine in our lives to make us who and what we are and they are where our values, motivations and intentions originate from.  It therefore logically follows that because god is a person, his abilities and personal characteristics are where his values, motivations and intentions also originate from.  Just like us. 

 

 

So, I'd like you to do two things please, Edgarcito. 

 

The first is to read through everything written here and see if you agree with it.  Please raise any point that you disagree with and please say why.  We can discuss anything that's relevant.  Or, if something's not clear or doesn't make sense, please say so.  We can discuss it.

 

The second thing is to look at both both lists and see if you can add to both of them.  The clearer picture we have of god's powers and abilities and his character and personality, the better.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:52 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Ok then Edgarcito, let's resume with a recap.

 

Any changes that seem to happen to god in scripture are not true changes to his nature, his mind or his intent.  They are simply done so that we can relate to him.

 

You said that you could comprehend this and you also had some additional questions, which will become relevant soon and which will soon be answered.  Thank you for your patience.

 

 

All being well, our next step is to get into the meat of understanding more about god's mind and intent and how these things are linked to his nature and his character.  We're going to treat scripture at face value and also take the standard Christian beliefs about god as givens, applying logic to both of these things.  Doing this shouldn't be a problem and we should both be on the same page when we do this.  

 

First off we'll compile two lists.  One of god's powers and abilities and the other of his personal characteristics.  This should be easy enough and I'll even start off both lists with some examples.  In no particular order...

 

God is all powerful (omnipotent).

God is everywhere (omnipresent).

God is eternal, existing outside of time.  

God is all knowing.

God sees everything in creation.

God is the creator of everything.

God is complete within himself, needing nothing else to be himself.

God is infallible.

God has free will.

 

When it comes to his character and personality...

 

God is perfect love.

God is perfect goodness.

God is perfect justice.

God is perfect wisdom.

God is perfectly moral.

 

We're making two lists here because its a standard Christian belief that god is a person, just like you and me.  We have abilities and personal characteristics.  These combine in our lives to make us who and what we are and they are where our values, motivations and intentions originate from.  It therefore logically follows that because god is a person, his abilities and personal characteristics are where his values, motivations and intentions also originate from.  Just like us. 

 

 

So, I'd like you to do two things please, Edgarcito. 

 

The first is to read through everything written here and see if you agree with it.  Please raise any point that you disagree with and please say why.  We can discuss anything that's relevant.  Or, if something's not clear or doesn't make sense, please say so.  We can discuss it.

 

The second thing is to look at both both lists and see if you can add to both of them.  The clearer picture we have of god's powers and abilities and his character and personality, the better.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of contradictions like this can be found in ordinary life.  No god or sacred text required.

 

Do you and I have free will?  I remember Sam Harris talking about some neurology experiments that suggest otherwise... or at least that what's really happening isn't exactly the same as our cultural notion of 'free will'.  Even with the most purely scientific approaches we apes can manage, we immediately run into paradoxes (paradoxi?) when you start interrogating the big questions like free will, existence, meaning, life/death, etc.

 

Personally I think that speaks to the limits of our language, of our own monkey-brains, our notions of what logic is and means, and our lack of understanding of the universe around us.  On the scale of the universe, we're not even ants of grains of sand.  We probably don't even amount to bacteria compared to the size of the earth.  We "know" a lot of things, but how connected are they really to our reality?  In a world where we know we have unseen spatial dimensions, where time here isn't the same as time there, , where conditions in most of the universe are incredibly hostile to life itself, where quantum mechanics does the weird shit that it does.  How much of what we "know" is just based on our own limited perception (frogs in a well), vs the multidimensional, universe-size reality that's out there?  We don't know what we don't know. 

 

So it shouldn't shock anybody that a bunch of bronze-age herdsmen would have plenty of their own contradictions and paradoxi.  I'm sorry that the Judeo-Christian faith hasn't yet brought existential enlightenment to the world.  But to be fair- nothing in the secular or atheist world-view can soundly answer these questions either.  

 

I understand that you can't take a lot of Christian epistemology seriously- I can't either in a lot of cases.  But neither the Christian nor secular humanist world views can give solid, provable, non-paradoxical answers to these existential questions.  That's where belief comes in, and that's a paradox too.

 

[RankStranger]

Does the time limit on the edit function come along with the Authentic Christian Believer tag?  Or is that just how the board works now?

 

I wanted to edit a typo, and it says I can't.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

33 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Does the time limit on the edit function come along with the Authentic Christian Believer tag?  Or is that just how the board works now?

 

I wanted to edit a typo, and it says I can't.

I think the edit feature works differently for regular members.  I don't think the christian badge makes a difference.