Me And The Controversy.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

You guys are assholes for opening old wounds....

 

Some people enjoy opening old wounds, buncha scab-pickin nancies if you ask me.

 

I find it a little shameful that some people are willing to use loop-holes to keep J out of CH. I've said it before, but the excuse that you don't want him reading the fine details of your life is not good enough. Have the posts deleted if you don't want him knowing certain things about you. I'm actually more offended by this than anything J called me in that tasteless little exchange of ours...

 

 

Awwww. You loved every minute of it. Don't front.

[Dianka]

What can I say, I am enchanted by irreverence.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

(Damn it! Is the "Reply" function screwing up again? Nothing is getting posted. This is my third attempt to reply and I've had to settle for the "Fast Reply" option.)

 

Anyway, Shiva, I apologize if my LAST post came off critical of you. THAT was not my intent. I was making an (apparently lame) attempt at humor, directed back at myself. I'll have to work harder at that, I suppose.

 

Rock on, dude. You DO deserve justice. You haven't done shit wrong as far as I can tell. (And I DID read through all 35 pages of your posts to confirm this! Fuck, but my eyes hurt!)

 

*edit - This damn thing keeps cutting off last words! Fucker!

 

 

You rock like Dokken!

 

What can I say, I am enchanted by irreverence.

 

Enchanted? That's high praise, indeed. I still got it in me, girl. You got any proof you aren't a 42 yr old trucker with a laptop? Your pic is a doozy, but that could have easily been culled from the archives of penthouse.

[Fweethawt]

HOLOCAUST

I just spent the last couple of hours carefully reading that thread. Before I started reading, I commited myself to doing so with a completely open-minded and unbiased attitude toward each and every individual who participated in that thread.

 

I could very-well be wrong (which is exactly why I'm going to read it all again), but it did seem to me that the opposition directed toward Shiva, was a result of carrying over sentiments gathered by reading other posts that he didn't even make.

 

If I had to come up with a silly little way to explain my opinion of that thread, I think I'd have to say something to the effect of :

 

Some saw Anti-Semitism, while others saw Anti-Semanticism.

 

But, like I said, I'll read it again to see if I missed something.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

HOLOCAUST

I just spent the last couple of hours carefully reading that thread. Before I started reading, I commited myself to doing so with a completely open-minded and unbiased attitude toward each and every individual who participated in that thread.

 

I could very-well be wrong (which is exactly why I'm going to read it all again), but it did seem to me that the opposition directed toward Shiva, was a result of carrying over sentiments gathered by reading other posts that he didn't even make.

 

If I had to come up with a silly little way to explain my opinion of that thread, I think I'd have to say something to the effect of :

 

Some saw Anti-Semitism, while others saw Anti-Semanticism.

 

But, like I said, I'll read it again to see if I missed something.

 

You rock, fwee.

[Fweethawt]

You rock like Dokken!

And Dokken is definitely rockin'!

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

You rock like Dokken!

And Dokken is definitely rockin'!

 

You know it!

[Fweethawt]

Some saw Anti-Semitism, while others saw Anti-Semanticism.

You rock, fwee.

What I mean by that is, somehow the meanings of the words 'deny' and 'doubt' became synonymous.

 

Those who doubted, asked questions and got labeled as deniers.

 

But, I will have another look.

Just not now.

Probably tonight.

 

 

You rock like Dokken!

And Dokken is definitely rockin'!

You know it!

I remember when my son tried to learn Mr. Scary on his electric guitar.

 

He can rip-off the beginning pretty well, but I think he found Alone Again to be more his speed.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Some saw Anti-Semitism, while others saw Anti-Semanticism.

You rock, fwee.

What I mean by that is, somehow the meanings of the words 'deny' and 'doubt' became synonymous.

 

Those who doubted, asked questions and got labeled deniers.

 

But, I will have another look.

Just not now.

Probably tonight.

 

I see. The jury is still out. Tomorrow, upon subsequent viewing of the thread, you might be able to more confidently side with pitchu and proclaim me a holocaust denying racist. I suppose I shall have to wait just like the rest of you to discover what my true motive is. Who knows? It may even take as many as eleventy viewings before we can all be sure I am not a racist. I won't blame you if there is wagering.

[Guest OnTheFence]

So, I know that some people here have certain objections to me, my personality, my style, my idiom - whatever you want to call it.

If I don't piss off a few people in here then I will be very surprised.

 

I think it's a sign that you are being honest.

 

I don't know much about you yet--I've only just found this site--but I love your picture/icon thingy in your profile thingy. Was from The Big Lebowsky wasn't it?

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Oh yeah. Samoans, GO HOME!

 

 

So, I know that some people here have certain objections to me, my personality, my style, my idiom - whatever you want to call it.

If I don't piss off a few people in here then I will be very surprised.

 

I think it's a sign that you are being honest.

 

I don't know much about you yet--I've only just found this site--but I love your picture/icon thingy in your profile thingy. Was from The Big Lebowsky wasn't it?

 

 

Oh jes. Joo neber puck wit da Jesus!

[Rachelness]

I think I might start a thread about myself.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I think I might start a thread about myself.

 

You're gonna need more hype than that, sister. I suggest saying something about the jews. Like, maybe you could start a thread about how they all play basketball really well, because their calves are more developed than that of the caucasian races, which also enables them to smuggle goods into the US when they return from LoompaLand with their huge hollowed out calves filled with gummy Dabloons. That oughtta do it.

[Rachelness]

I think I might start a thread about myself.

 

You're gonna need more hype than that, sister. I suggest saying something about the jews. Like, maybe you could start a thread about how they all play basketball really well, because their calves are more develpoed than that of the caucasian races, which also enables them to smuggle goods into the US when the return from LoompaLand with their huge hollowed out calves filled with gummy Dabloons. That oughtta do it.

 

 

You are one sick SOB son. Love it. Besides which, any friend of Asimov's is as depraved and twisted as I am, so it's all good here.

[pitchu]

Shiva started this thread because he wanted to hear the specifics of what people held against him. I told him mine. Anyone here is free to label me anything they like for that assessment.

 

The fact that Shiva posted, in this thread, an example of the flawed "science" involved in denying the use of lethal gas shows, to me, his ability and willingness to weigh facts against any propensity toward a biased conclusion. That's a big thing. I like facts, too, so I can't ignore his having cited this.

 

If I hadn't told him the truth of my reasoning regarding him, I wouldn't have learned this information... or been able to add to my opinion of Shiva the fact that he's the one who provided it.

 

That's a big thing, too.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

any propensity toward a biased conclusion.

 

I see you aren't yet sold on the idea that I might not be a racist, but can only acknowledge that I do have the ability to overcome my racial bias in the presence of facts. I'll take it, for now.

[Dianka]

Enchanted? That's high praise, indeed. I still got it in me, girl. You got any proof you aren't a 42 yr old trucker with a laptop? Your pic is a doozy, but that could have easily been culled from the archives of penthouse.

 

How did you know....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I use a laptop?

 

Ok ok, tell you what: I'll drive my ass to Kinkos and scan a few more pictures. However, I have to say that you're probbaly trying to shame me into putting more pictures up because you're tired of jerking it to the same 'ol picture night after night. I promise I'll have fresh spanking material up on my profile for you.

[pitchu]

any propensity toward a biased conclusion.

 

I see you aren't yet sold on the idea that I might not be a racist, but can only acknowledge that I do have the ability to overcome my racial bias in the presence of facts. I'll take it, for now.

 

Good. Thanks.

 

Later this summer we can discuss lyrics, if you like. I was gonna say it's "a much less fraught subject" but that's stupid. Anyone who's truly invested in writing lyrics is probably willing to axe murder over a difference of opinion.

 

 

I know I am.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I hope that you will stick around for a while and give me the opportunity to build trust with you again.

 

 

No sweat, Jay. I ain't mad atcha. I plan on sticking around for awhile.

[Fweethawt]

He said assmolotov.

[pitchu]

I'm not a "never" detractor. I don't write people off permanently, nor do I expect you to come here and be completely uncontroversial, because that's boring.

 

 

Same here, Shiva.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I'm not a "never" detractor. I don't write people off permanently, nor do I expect you to come here and be completely uncontroversial, because that's boring.

 

 

Same here, Shiva.

 

Pitchu, you should know that it was brought to my attention that the spark of animosity that set the tone in the holocaust thread may have been a result of a kneejerk reaction of mine that wasn't entirely warranted.

 

The situation to which i refer was one of your initial posts in that thread that contained this sentiment...

 

I'm for absolute free speech and for anybody's right to say any outrageous, smug, hateful thing that springs to mind, but I also encourage everyone who knows it to be outrageous, smug, hateful speech to say so.

 

It seemed to me that you were automatically catagorising anything critical of israel as "hate speech", and as the argument went on, this proved to be the first of many "slippery slope" type arguments that were presented. I responded, rather hotly, with this.....

 

He had the balls to refer to himself as an ex-nazi. Reread this and rethink whether it's clear that he is simply the racist demon you seem to want him to be.

 

I will admit that perhaps my reaction was premature and unwarranted. I apologise for assuming that you were saying that the sentiments presented previous to your injterjection were purely hateful. If that isn't what you meant, I can easily see how my assumption led to my angry post and the subsequent hostile tone of much of the rest of the thread.

 

Can I tell you that I am particularly sensitive to charges of racism, because I have experienced it in my personal life. When I was 13 I met a kid named Jamal Ruhe. To this day he is still one of my dearest friends. Before I met him I had no idea how profound this world's racial issues truly were.

 

After we'd been friends for a couple for years, one day we were at the house of a girlfriend of ours after school. Before that day I don't think the word "nigger" had ever passed through my lips. Jamal's father was white, but his mother was black, and in the south a mulatto is a nigger no matter how you slice it, but all of this had never really occured to me. So, we were sitting around in this girl's living room, and we started joking as kids will do and something happened and Jamal lobbed his coke bottle at my head and it landed squarely on my forehead, shocked me, and the first thing out of my mouth was "You nigger!"

 

His demeanor changed, but I didn't really notice it at the time. He was taciturn until he was picked up, and later that night I phoned him like I usually did, but this time his Dad talked to me, and said that Jamal didn't want to talk to me.

 

I was dumfounded.He said his son had come home that day and told him that he lost his best friend. I was incredulous, until he told me why. He explainded to me how that word was like a red flag, erected to show a mans inferiority, every single time it was uttered. He explained the word's origins and how the world had just become accustomed to this word that could make a man instantly feel like a dog. Could instantly rob him of his humanity.

 

When I heard it I wept, and could think of nothing other than atoning to my friend. I got it. It was easy for me. I was born with a birth defect that makes my body obviously asymetrical. My left shoulder is 2 or 3 inches higher than my right, and from the moment that children noticed that they did everything in their power to remind me that I was flawed, and not qualified in the way they were. I got it. Some people have to live in a world for which they must always suspect if their "peers" truly respect them for who they are.

 

Racism is evil, pitchu. I know this. But extreme kneejerks to human behavior that hint at racist underpinnings...what does that do for us? The truth is no less true, and only moreso when allowed to be turned over in every shade of light and examined by every skeptic with the stones to seek the truth. My comments in the holocaust thread were not racially motivated. They were motivated by a general mistrust for the status quo and any sort of ideology that still holds certain religions with favored status. You may think this isn't true of the jews, and that is neither here nor there.

 

Mostly, what I hope you will see, is that I don't have any real racial prejudices. If I oppose a religious organisation, all that tells you is that I am similar to nearly every last person on this board. I get the feeling that there have been things that have happened to you in the past that make you particularly sensitive to antisemitism. I have admitted that my methods may not always tell the world exactly what I would wish to say. Is it at all possible that a greater degree of temperance when you address holocaust issues might be called for? Regardless of your intent, your initial post did set me on the defensive, because it seemed like you were characterising anything critical of judaism or the official figures involved with the holocaust as antisemitism. You might say that I was defensive because I'm a guilty racist. You might also say that any person who insn't a racist will be offended by the suggestion that they are. Honestly, I know alot of people who mindlessly say racist things, like insensitive jokes. What I don't know is a single person who would ever be for the killing of another person because of their race, or for keeping a certain race out of the workforce, or whatever. Most racism is a nearly harmless venting with a scapegoat that they would never really wish any harm upon. Blacks are no less guilty than whites. Yes, racism is evil, but it's merely a facet of tribalism that is as programmed into us as eating. Understanding is called for, not demonisation, IMO. I'm just considering what might be the most productive thing for all of us.

 

This issue of race is something that it's going to take us, as a collective, some time to really figure out. The only absolute truth in the matter is that nothing is as simple as alot of us would like it to be. The simplest thing in all of it isn't even worded in a way that the freeest of thinkers would approve of. It suggests that we were all "created " equal, but I digress.

 

I am sure that you don't believe that everone with a critical opinion of the state of Israel is an antisemite, but I can understand how this is an emotional issue, and not having known anyone who died in a gas chamber, personally, I can perhaps look at the situation in a far more clinical way that someone who has experienced that kind of loss..

 

I know that you had expressed a desire to have this conversation via PMs, but I think it might be edifiying to all of us to have it publicly. In any case, I give you my humblest apology for my assumption and the melee that followed (only where it partained to you, specifically, and not any...other...person in the argument. Other people picked their own fights.). I hope you can forgive me and begin to see me in a more human light. I can't say I won't still let you down, but I can say that is never my intent.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Bumpalumpagus.

[Checkmate]

............I can't say I won't still let you down, but I can say that is never my intent.

Bravo, my man. Bra-fucking-vo! Extremely excellent post. Thank you for sharing that with ALL OF US and not just in a PM.

[pitchu]

Shiva, that's an extraordinary post. All of it. Just amazing to me.

 

First, I don't hold myself up as any paragon of rationality. I can get just as emotional over things I consider outrages as the next person. Those who've seen my posts over a long period of time, here, know that all matters Jewish are deeply meaningful to me because, you're right, Jewish issues strike me on a very personal level. Like Lou Dobbs has become the Big Bore of immigration issues, I set eyes to rolling whenever the Holocaust topic arises.

 

The first Jew I was ever aware of knowing was a girl from a neighboring high school whom I'd see at speech and debate tournaments. She took me into her life, her home, her dazzling intellect, her passion for beauty, her admiration for excellence and, so critical to me for the rest of my life, her history with her Holocaust-survivor parents. Like many survivors, they told their children nothing of their experiences. The children were left to piece together the bizarre parental eruptions over seemingly meaningless statements, the abrupt departures from stores or movie theaters, the inexplicable moves, depressions, psychosomatic illnesses, and so much more, on an almost daily basis.

 

Along with witnessing some of these behaviors from the parents, I also was the recipient of their unaccountable kindness, their childlike gratitude when I was appreciative of their food or other efforts they made toward including me in their lives. They adored watching the friendship develop between Martha and me. They loved me. And it was love like I'd never experienced. It was a desperate kind of love, like one would have for the promise of relief from unbearable physical pain.

 

I've given thought to this first "Jewish" experience of mine over the years, and I've still not solved the puzzle of it. I do know that during the ensuing years Jews have figured largely in almost all good things that have come to me. I'm a Judeophile. When I've expressed this to Jews, I've often seen on their faces the flicker of that same kind of astonished gratitude. Pretty much across the board, Jews aren't used to being loved by gentiles.

 

It was the aftermath of the Holocaust that visited Martha and her family and untold numbers of American families whose parents escaped Hitler's death decree for all European Jews. I can only assume that Martha's children, if they exist, bear their own scars from that "ancient" history.

 

Please read the post that prompted my outburst on that thread. It was not about Israel. The subject of Israel hadn't even come up. Everybody has a right to take any nation and its various leaders to task for doing things which nations and leaders should not do. But that post was about the Holocaust.

 

The post claimed that "...Conquest was Hitler's goal in Europe, not genocide." And, "No doubt many of the Jewish deaths came about through simple mistreatment and spur-of-the-moment executions, as well as disease and friendly fire from Allied bombs."

 

I called it smug, hateful speech then, and I call it that now. In the face of abundant documentation of Hitler's goal of a Juden-free Europe, and the documented prisoner-messages sneaked out of the camps begging the Allies to bomb the rails leading to the camps, bomb the camps themselves, the claims in this post are ugly, brutal, inhuman.

 

They are claims that sound very much like those of the unmerciful Japanese overseer of the torture camps that held American POWs who died by the thousands building the rails and bridges of the infamous "River Kwai" area. Even in an interview in 1980, this man claimed that the Americans died because they were fed rice and it didn't agree with them, so they didn't eat much and became weak and susceptible to disease. He was never charged with war crimes.

 

There is no excuse for war crimes. And there is no excuse for denying war crimes. And there are generational repercussions from these crimes. And, no, "reason" will not see to staving off the re-emergence of such crimes in the future (as claimed in that post) because reason has never done so, because reason has no power against the psychology that perpetuates such crimes.

 

So, the above is something akin to an explanation for my fervid comments on matters Jewish. It's my response to your eloquent telling of your own childhood story and of the suffering you've endured at the hands of those elevated creatures, Perfect Human Beings.

 

I have much more understanding of what happened between you and me, and even more of you as a person. I'm grateful for it. I hope this post will accomplish something of the same for you.

 

(I doubt I'll have a chance to get back to you before my departure today.)