Trust Yourself

[midniterider]

IH: One does is not a Christian by simply being born in a Christian home or being baptized as a baby by a priest. I can’t remember at the moment how other belief systems acknowledge membership.

 

...

 

Baptism ? No. Being born in a CINO home? No. This will not make someone a Christian.

 

But growing up in a Christian home where Christ is the central theme , as well as the weekly church life,  is a systemic influence in a child's life. Really, this kind of child rearing does make Christians.  People grow up in these homes assuming Christ is the only way to live. It's a deeply instilled part of who they are. You say you were given a choice to believe whatever you wanted to believe. I'm Glad. But it's funny how your father was a Baptist preacher and now you're a Baptist (am I correct?) That couldn't have had anything to do with being fed Baptist doctrine all your life? Please tell me with a straight face that your Baptist upbringing had ZERO effect on your choice to be a Baptist. 

 

Proverbs 22:6New King James Version (NKJV)

⁶ Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

 

 

Have you ever wanted to be something other than a Baptist? Would you be comfortable telling your family members you have given up the Baptist life and are now an agnostic, atheist, ? You are a free man and free to forge your own path. Your Baptist family members would fully support you as an atheist, correct? Wouldn't they?

 

There's lots of stories here on this site where the Christianity self-preservation mechanism rears it's ugly head. The Christians either reel in the lost sheep or cut them off like a diseased limb. But I digress.

[dangitbobby83]

 

So what EVERYONE is asking here is to DEFINE something that only Christ can define......and holding your fellow humans accountable for the misunderstandings. Is this logical to y'all?

 

 

Why not? God does that with us all the time. Give vague and extremely unclear, seemingly contradicting orders and then sends us to hell when we don't understand, agree or are set up to fail. And if we ask for more clarifications? We're told to STFU and believe it. Nice.

 

If your god is real, it would be nice to get some clarifications on this shit and not have the blame shifted to us when we fail to understand, as your god has done since the opening verses of genesis. 

 

Of course, you know what else would make far more sense? Your god being a figment of your imagination and presto! World makes a hell of a lot more sense. 

 

Finally, yeah, the kid does need food and Jeff has said, the fault lies with terrible governments, warlords and those who have the ability to stop it that chooses not to, which if jesus was real, then he would be a dick for saying "no" to starving innocent children. 

[Jeff]

Baptists don't listen to Dylan

[florduh]

One does is not a Christian by simply being born in a Christian home or being baptized as a baby by a priest. I can’t remember at the moment how other belief systems acknowledge membership.

I do know that Christianity is a fast growing faith in Africa and Asia. In China, it is really growing.

 

 

I didn't think this would ever need to be explained.

 

If a person decides they want to act spiritual or religious they will typically gravitate to the belief system they are most familiar with. They will typically adopt the beliefs of their family and society. Obviously, the vast majority of Americans do not grow up to be Hindu and the vast majority of Asians do not grow up to be Southern Baptists. No brainer. Christianity is indeed making inroads in Africa and Asia, but that is due to missionary and evangelism efforts of the Christian recruitment machine, not the natural order of things. Remember the Inquisition? That tactic worked to spread the "good news" as well.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

...ha. Y'all know better and you still choose to blame God for the starving child....and Christians.

1. Yes we do know better. We don't actually blame an imaginary being for this. We're just holding your god to your bible standards except you prefer other verses that say what you want to hear and ignore our verses that you don't like. But we don't actually blame any gods.

 

2. I don't think we blame Christians for anything other than selective bible reading and having imaginary friends like we used to have. If anyone, I blame their countrymen and the countries around them for bad politics and tribalism. Parts of Africa seems to not give a shit about other parts of Africa.

 

I don't know Jeff. As it is also with some end result we call "good". As I understand the Bible, there were initially rules for God's people that ultimately couldn't be achieved.

 

End,

Please ask yourself if you actually mean that God's rules were impossible to follow.  That's what the text of Genesis 1-3 clearly shows.

 

This implies to me that ultimately there is a specific set of mechanisms/actions that will result in the result "good".

 

Not so.  In both cases (unachievable or impossible) neither will result in the "good".  That which is impossible and/or unachievable can never result in the "good".  Unless you redefine certain failure to mean good. 

 

If this is true, then humanity DOESN'T know or understand the mechanism.

 

If true, then Yes you're totally right, End.  We don't know or understand what cannot be achieved or what is impossible for us to live by.  Please take a moment to think about the consequences of this.

Was it fair, right, just or good for God to set an unachievable and/or impossible standard and then punish all of us for the first two humans not being able to live up to his unachievable/impossible standard?

 

So as the next part of the plan to bring humanity to the end goal "good", God takes responsibility through Christ and then tells humanity...here are some general commandments and just have faith that your ticket has been punched through Christ's understanding.

 

And what of the billions who lived and died between the time God first set his impossible rules and the time of Jesus' incarnation on Earth?

Christ's end goal is of no help to them.

So what EVERYONE is asking here is to DEFINE something that only Christ can define......and holding your fellow humans accountable for the misunderstandings. Is this logical to y'all?

 

No.  The text of Genesis 1-3 is clearly enough to show that God caused all human suffering by setting impossible standards for his innocent newborns to fail to live up to.

Sending Himself in the form of Jesus to set things right thousands of years later is of no help to the billions who suffered disease, deformity and death in the interim.

 

I have had ministers/preachers/pastors/elders/deacons tell me "I don't know the answer to that". I expect there are several approaches to the dilemma. One can either see the reasoning of God through Christ or we can call it all BS.

 

Read Genesis 1-3 as it's written, End.  Not as you want to believe it's written.  Read what the text says.  That will tell you all you need to know about impossible and unachievable standards.

 

Either way, the child needs to get food.

 

If humans evolved, then humans are quite rightly responsible for that child's lack of food.  

(Notice how dangitbobby, florduh, sdelsolray, rjn, Jeff, duderonomy and myself ALL agreed that if there is no God, then humans are responsible for it's humger?  We didn't coordinate our posts by PM you know!)

 

But if God created humans, then He is ultimately responsible for ALL human suffering.  

Why?  Because just as it plainly says in Genesis 1-3, He set up an impossible and unachievable set of rules for Adam and Eve to fail to live up to.

Waiting millennia for the Son of God to come to Earth and solve the problem His Dad first created does nothing to excuse God from being ultimately responsible.

 

 

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

 

 

I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God.

 

"The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive."

 

http://www.worldhunger.org/

 

 

Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. 

 

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."   Romans 13:1 NIV

 

 

 

Romans 13:1-3 reads:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same."

 

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

 

This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works.

We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men."

There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments.

 

Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan  “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . "

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/

 

 

Ironhorse, you are in error here. The Acts 5:29 quote you used is Peter speaking to the leaders of the Sadducees regarding preaching Jesus as messiah. It has nothing to do with obeying civil government, but instead religious leadership.  

 

In fact, the governments (and their economic systems) that let millions of children starve, for whatever reason, are put there by your Biblegod, according to your Bible, and to resist them is to resist Biblegod himself.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

 

Imagine your god knitting that child (in the picture) together in its mother's womb, and having a plan for its life. Starving with a buzzard looking on is your Biblegod's plan, and the governments that let that happen, not just in that one case but in thousands and thousand of cases every day are put there by your god.

 

In all things give thanks, right?  The next time you are on your knees in prayer, are you going to thank your god for those starving children? Thank god for their distended bellies and the glazed lost look in their eyes? I hope for your sake that you do, because I'd hate to have you resisting your god.

 

You might bring up that it is "our fault" and not Biblegod's fault and that he will wonder where we were when we saw them hungry, naked, in prison. Well, where is he? Your all powerful god of love is waiting on people whose hearts are deceitfully wicked while his own creation dies a horrible painful slow death?

I might point out that when he didn't help the least of these my brethren, he didn't help me.

 

What say you?

 

 

 

What say you?

 

As an old proverb goes..."God provides the tree, he doesn't chop the wood."

 

These accusations and anger towards God is confusing to me.

What do you want God to do? Throw chili cheese burgers from the sky and feed us daily? 

 

Why are we not asking ourselves what have we done to help others?

 

This concept of loving and helping others is one of the key teachings of Christ.

 

We have the trees, but we have failed way too often to chop the wood. 

[duderonomy]

 

 

Ironhorse, you are in error here. The Acts 5:29 quote you used is Peter speaking to the leaders of the Sadducees regarding preaching Jesus as messiah. It has nothing to do with obeying civil government, but instead religious leadership.  

 

In fact, the governments (and their economic systems) that let millions of children starve, for whatever reason, are put there by your Biblegod, according to your Bible, and to resist them is to resist Biblegod himself.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

 

Imagine your god knitting that child (in the picture) together in its mother's womb, and having a plan for its life. Starving with a buzzard looking on is your Biblegod's plan, and the governments that let that happen, not just in that one case but in thousands and thousand of cases every day are put there by your god.

 

In all things give thanks, right?  The next time you are on your knees in prayer, are you going to thank your god for those starving children? Thank god for their distended bellies and the glazed lost look in their eyes? I hope for your sake that you do, because I'd hate to have you resisting your god.

 

You might bring up that it is "our fault" and not Biblegod's fault and that he will wonder where we were when we saw them hungry, naked, in prison. Well, where is he? Your all powerful god of love is waiting on people whose hearts are deceitfully wicked while his own creation dies a horrible painful slow death?

I might point out that when he didn't help the least of these my brethren, he didn't help me.

 

What say you?

 

 

 

What say you?

 

As an old proverb goes..."God provides the tree, he doesn't chop the wood."

 

These accusations and anger towards God is confusing to me.

What do you want God to do? Throw chili cheese burgers from the sky and feed us daily? 

 

Why are we not asking ourselves what have we done to help others?

 

This concept of loving and helping others is one of the key teachings of Christ.

 

We have the trees, but we have failed way too often to chop the wood. 

 

 

 

Old proverbs aren't the word of god.

We don't have the trees. They are under the control of the governments your god put in place, and I've shown you from the Bible that those governments must be obeyed, or else.

 

Don't blame me or yourself that children starve to death everyday if everything is under Biblegod's control. Is it true that nothing exists except that which was created by Biblegod through Christ? That would include the starvation of little children and the governments that let that happen. 

[Jeff]

Point is god doesn't exist. So naturally he doesn't perform his responsibilities.

you keep forgetting that our arguments to you are just playing by your rules. We don't actually concede your position to be true. So therefore not mad at God.

[duderonomy]

Point is god doesn't exist. So naturally he doesn't perform his responsibilities.

you keep forgetting that our arguments to you are just playing by your rules. We don't actually concede your position to be true. So therefore not mad at God.

 

So true. It would be like getting angry at the bad guy in a Hollywood movie. I guess it is possible, if one gets too wrapped up in the story and suspends their disbelief.

 

IH also mentioned our accusations towards Biblegod, without seeing that they are actually accusations against the Bible itself. He thinks that "God" and the Bible are "one", so I get where he thinks that. I would have too at one time. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God.

 

"The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive."

 

http://www.worldhunger.org/

 

 

Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. 

 

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."   Romans 13:1 NIV

 

 

 

Romans 13:1-3 reads:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same."

 

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

 

This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works.

We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men."

There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments.

 

Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan  “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . "

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/

 

 

Ironhorse, you are in error here. The Acts 5:29 quote you used is Peter speaking to the leaders of the Sadducees regarding preaching Jesus as messiah. It has nothing to do with obeying civil government, but instead religious leadership.  

 

In fact, the governments (and their economic systems) that let millions of children starve, for whatever reason, are put there by your Biblegod, according to your Bible, and to resist them is to resist Biblegod himself.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

 

Imagine your god knitting that child (in the picture) together in its mother's womb, and having a plan for its life. Starving with a buzzard looking on is your Biblegod's plan, and the governments that let that happen, not just in that one case but in thousands and thousand of cases every day are put there by your god.

 

In all things give thanks, right?  The next time you are on your knees in prayer, are you going to thank your god for those starving children? Thank god for their distended bellies and the glazed lost look in their eyes? I hope for your sake that you do, because I'd hate to have you resisting your god.

 

You might bring up that it is "our fault" and not Biblegod's fault and that he will wonder where we were when we saw them hungry, naked, in prison. Well, where is he? Your all powerful god of love is waiting on people whose hearts are deceitfully wicked while his own creation dies a horrible painful slow death?

I might point out that when he didn't help the least of these my brethren, he didn't help me.

 

What say you?

 

 

 

What say you?

 

As an old proverb goes..."God provides the tree, he doesn't chop the wood."

 

These accusations and anger towards God is confusing to me.

What do you want God to do? Throw chili cheese burgers from the sky and feed us daily? 

 

Why are we not asking ourselves what have we done to help others?

 

This concept of loving and helping others is one of the key teachings of Christ.

 

We have the trees, but we have failed way too often to chop the wood. 

 

 

What I said to End3 I say also unto you, Ironhorse.

 

But if God created humans, then He is ultimately responsible for ALL human suffering.  

Why?  Because just as it plainly says in Genesis 1-3, He set up an impossible and unachievable set of rules for Adam and Eve to fail to live up to.

Waiting millennia for the Son of God to come to Earth and solve the problem His Dad first created does nothing to excuse God from being ultimately responsible.

 

If my accusation against the evil God did to Adam and Eve really confuses you Ironhorse, then I've the same advice for you as I've given to End.

 

Go read Genesis 1 - 3 and see if you think that setting up an impossible test was a good and loving thing for God to do.

 

See if you think that keeping secret conditions about the test from them was a fair and just thing for God to do.

 

See if you think that punishing every living thing with death because of Adam and Eve's inability to understand and then live up to God's impossible test was a measure of God's infinite love.

[midniterider]

IH: What do you want God to do?

 

 

Something.

[ironhorse]

IH: One does is not a Christian by simply being born in a Christian home or being baptized as a baby by a priest. I can’t remember at the moment how other belief systems acknowledge membership.

 

...

 

Baptism ? No. Being born in a CINO home? No. This will not make someone a Christian.

 

But growing up in a Christian home where Christ is the central theme , as well as the weekly church life,  is a systemic influence in a child's life. Really, this kind of child rearing does make Christians.  People grow up in these homes assuming Christ is the only way to live. It's a deeply instilled part of who they are. You say you were given a choice to believe whatever you wanted to believe. I'm Glad. But it's funny how your father was a Baptist preacher and now you're a Baptist (am I correct?) That couldn't have had anything to do with being fed Baptist doctrine all your life? Please tell me with a straight face that your Baptist upbringing had ZERO effect on your choice to be a Baptist. 

 

Proverbs 22:6New King James Version (NKJV)

⁶ Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

 

 

Have you ever wanted to be something other than a Baptist? Would you be comfortable telling your family members you have given up the Baptist life and are now an agnostic, atheist, ? You are a free man and free to forge your own path. Your Baptist family members would fully support you as an atheist, correct? Wouldn't they?

 

There's lots of stories here on this site where the Christianity self-preservation mechanism rears it's ugly head. The Christians either reel in the lost sheep or cut them off like a diseased limb. But I digress.

 

 

IH: One does is not a Christian by simply being born in a Christian home or being baptized as a baby by a priest. I can’t remember at the moment how other belief systems acknowledge membership.

 

...

 

Baptism ? No. Being born in a CINO home? No. This will not make someone a Christian.

 

My understanding of scripture is that each person makes it their choice to accept Christ. Ot is not made by the parents or a priest sprinkling water.

 

But growing up in a Christian home where Christ is the central theme , as well as the weekly church life,  is a systemic influence in a child's life. Really, this kind of child rearing does make Christians.  People grow up in these homes assuming Christ is the only way to live. It's a deeply instilled part of who they are. You say you were given a choice to believe whatever you wanted to believe. I'm Glad. But it's funny how your father was a Baptist preacher and now you're a Baptist (am I correct?) That couldn't have had anything to do with being fed Baptist doctrine all your life? Please tell me with a straight face that your Baptist upbringing had ZERO effect on your choice to be a Baptist.

 

Proverbs 22:6New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

 

You are right. I do agree that my parents had a huge impact on my life. They did not however “Bible Thump” me to death or threatened me with being put on the “Hell Fire grill” if I did this or that. Their practice of their faith was more in them actually trying to follow “the Golden Rule” than to shout “Jesus! Jesus! Get Saved or go to hell” to me or others.

 

Have you ever wanted to be something other than a Baptist? Would you be comfortable telling your family members you have given up the Baptist life and are now an agnostic, atheist, ? You are a free man and free to forge your own path. Your Baptist family members would fully support you as an atheist, correct? Wouldn't they?

 

I assume you have read my story so I won’t rehash it here. If I had gone away from the faith, I think my parents would have accepted it. Not that they agreed with such a decision but they would not have kicked me out of the house or banned me from Sunday dinners after church. 

 

There's lots of stories here on this site where the Christianity self-preservation mechanism rears it's ugly head. The Christians either reel in the lost sheep or cut them off like a diseased limb. But I digress.

 

I have read many of the stories on this site. I agree that some who call themselves Christians are butchers who do horrific harm to their own and others.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see it differently. I think God has provided plenty of resources for us. We are the problem, not God.

 

"The principal underlying cause of poverty and thus hunger in Africa and elsewhere is the ordinary operation of the world's economic and political systems. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive."

 

http://www.worldhunger.org/

 

 

Ironhorse, the Bible seems to disagree with your view that Biblegod isn't the problem. The economic and political systems you blame are his handiwork. 

 

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."   Romans 13:1 NIV

 

 

 

Romans 13:1-3 reads:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same."

 

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

 

This phrase is reveals the context in which the scripture is speaking. Civil government must not be a "terror to good works." God grants these powers to keep order in society. People following civil laws and doing good should have no fear. It is only a terror to those doing evil works.

We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men."

There are dozens of scripture verses on evil leaders and corrupt governments.

 

Note about the photo: Kevin Carter, who took the picture wrote this later about his experiences in Sudan  “I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . "

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/

 

 

Ironhorse, you are in error here. The Acts 5:29 quote you used is Peter speaking to the leaders of the Sadducees regarding preaching Jesus as messiah. It has nothing to do with obeying civil government, but instead religious leadership.  

 

In fact, the governments (and their economic systems) that let millions of children starve, for whatever reason, are put there by your Biblegod, according to your Bible, and to resist them is to resist Biblegod himself.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

 

Imagine your god knitting that child (in the picture) together in its mother's womb, and having a plan for its life. Starving with a buzzard looking on is your Biblegod's plan, and the governments that let that happen, not just in that one case but in thousands and thousand of cases every day are put there by your god.

 

In all things give thanks, right?  The next time you are on your knees in prayer, are you going to thank your god for those starving children? Thank god for their distended bellies and the glazed lost look in their eyes? I hope for your sake that you do, because I'd hate to have you resisting your god.

 

You might bring up that it is "our fault" and not Biblegod's fault and that he will wonder where we were when we saw them hungry, naked, in prison. Well, where is he? Your all powerful god of love is waiting on people whose hearts are deceitfully wicked while his own creation dies a horrible painful slow death?

I might point out that when he didn't help the least of these my brethren, he didn't help me.

 

What say you?

 

 

 

What say you?

 

As an old proverb goes..."God provides the tree, he doesn't chop the wood."

 

These accusations and anger towards God is confusing to me.

What do you want God to do? Throw chili cheese burgers from the sky and feed us daily? 

 

Why are we not asking ourselves what have we done to help others?

 

This concept of loving and helping others is one of the key teachings of Christ.

 

We have the trees, but we have failed way too often to chop the wood. 

 

 

What I said to End3 I say also unto you, Ironhorse.

 

But if God created humans, then He is ultimately responsible for ALL human suffering.  

Why?  Because just as it plainly says in Genesis 1-3, He set up an impossible and unachievable set of rules for Adam and Eve to fail to live up to.

Waiting millennia for the Son of God to come to Earth and solve the problem His Dad first created does nothing to excuse God from being ultimately responsible.

 

If my accusation against the evil God did to Adam and Eve really confuses you Ironhorse, then I've the same advice for you as I've given to End.

 

Go read Genesis 1 - 3 and see if you think that setting up an impossible test was a good and loving thing for God to do.

 

See if you think that keeping secret conditions about the test from them was a fair and just thing for God to do.

 

See if you think that punishing every living thing with death because of Adam and Eve's inability to understand and then live up to God's impossible test was a measure of God's infinite love.

 

 

(Bump!)

[ironhorse]

I realize the following is not a full answer not answer but it might help you to understand my point of view when we continue on in this topic.

 

To gain more understanding and the why or why nots of the narrative of the fall of man, I think we must go back to a much earlier event: the fall of Lucifer.

The scriptures tell that Lucifer one of the highest ranking angels.

At some point he decided to set himself up against God.

He was persuasive enough to have one third of angels to join him in this rebellion. So the question here is why didn’t God simply destroy Lucifer along with the others? God can do all things right? Snap his God finger, utter “Be gone.” No rebellion, no sin, no problem.

 

This a story helped me understand this a little better:

Pretend there are many citizens of a great kingdom ruled by a powerful magical king. The kingdom has always been at peace and the citizens happy, then one day one of his generals rebels against the king. He claims he can do better than the king.  He says some things that sound pretty persuasive. He soon gains a huge following. The rest of the citizens know of this (some are even having thoughts they might join the rebellion) and wait to see what the powerful king will do.

What if the powerful king uses his magical powers and immediately kills and destroys the rebels.

What would the other citizens think?
How would they view the king’s action?
Would they understand his action?
Would this cause more questions?

 

I heard Billy Graham answer this question once. He said it is easy to think God should have just destroyed Lucifer from the start or never created him in the first place but God took another view.
God decided to let the rebellion play out. He allowed this to prove to all in the universe that Lucifer’s ways are destructive and would cause great harm.

The scriptures speak of a great war in the universe.

I remember talking about this with some friends a few years after the first Star Wars movie. We had a great time speculating about what this war between God and Lucifer was waged.
Whatever it entailed, it was a major event in the universe and the battle continues here on earth.

[Jeff]

Well if Billy Graham says so, that settles it. Lucifer was allowed to let it play out... and that is written somewhere or God just told Billy so the sheep would have an answer to a tough question?

 

I never saw that verse back when I cared what old books say about gods.

[sdelsolray]

...

Pretend...

 

Yes, you are good at pretending.

[florduh]

I think Christianity has only the most rudimentary grasp of the spiritual concepts that all the major religions attempt to demonstrate. Even I, a believer in no sort of woo-woo whatsoever, can see where Christianity misses the boat on spirituality with their rigid, black and white view of reality. Odd how it's mythology mirrors the monarchy model that existed when it was created.

 

If any religion has a realistic handle on things, it certainly isn't Christianity.

[bornagainathiest]

I realize the following is not a full answer not answer but it might help you to understand my point of view when we continue on in this topic.

 

To gain more understanding and the why or why nots of the narrative of the fall of man, I think we must go back to a much earlier event: the fall of Lucifer.

The scriptures tell that Lucifer one of the highest ranking angels.

At some point he decided to set himself up against God.

He was persuasive enough to have one third of angels to join him in this rebellion. So the question here is why didn’t God simply destroy Lucifer along with the others? God can do all things right? Snap his God finger, utter “Be gone.” No rebellion, no sin, no problem.

 

This a story helped me understand this a little better:

Pretend there are many citizens of a great kingdom ruled by a powerful magical king. The kingdom has always been at peace and the citizens happy, then one day one of his generals rebels against the king. He claims he can do better than the king.  He says some things that sound pretty persuasive. He soon gains a huge following. The rest of the citizens know of this (some are even having thoughts they might join the rebellion) and wait to see what the powerful king will do.

What if the powerful king uses his magical powers and immediately kills and destroys the rebels.

What would the other citizens think?

How would they view the king’s action?

Would they understand his action?

Would this cause more questions?

 

I heard Billy Graham answer this question once. He said it is easy to think God should have just destroyed Lucifer from the start or never created him in the first place but God took another view.

God decided to let the rebellion play out. He allowed this to prove to all in the universe that Lucifer’s ways are destructive and would cause great harm.

The scriptures speak of a great war in the universe.

I remember talking about this with some friends a few years after the first Star Wars movie. We had a great time speculating about what this war between God and Lucifer was waged.

Whatever it entailed, it was a major event in the universe and the battle continues here on earth.

 

Ironhorse,

 

Here's what I wrote to you in the Some Notes About Me thread, with one word changed.

So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?

Those that don't, never exist and their free will is not actually violated because they remain as un-actualized thoughts in the eternal mind of God.

The same point applies.  God commits no killing and no crime if he only creates those he foreknows will love him.  But by letting this pointless war go ahead he causes the kind of collateral damage in the pics below, where millions are forced to endure lives of pain, misery and indignity, followed by fiery incineration at his hand.  Please explain how letting this happen to even one person is a good, kind, loving, compassionate and merciful thing, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

[rjn]

The lower pic looks like microcephaly, but what about #2, BAA?

 

IH: so the "War in the heavens" actually played out in actual space-time somewhere in the Universe? Cool.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

BAA,

 

If there wasn't suffering in the world, then neither Bob Dylan nor Bono would have anything to sing about.  That is why god allows it to happen.  Also, what would C.S. Lewis have written "Surprised by Joy" about, if not for suffering?  Granted, "Surprised by Logic and a Common Sense Approach to Governing the Universe" has a nice ring to it, title-wise; but most would likely find it a boring read.

 

Thanks,

TRP

[bornagainathiest]

The lower pic looks like microcephaly, but what about #2, BAA?

 

IH: so the "War in the heavens" actually played out in actual space-time somewhere in the Universe? Cool.

 

Sorry rjn, but I couldn't say.

 

I just Googled birth defects and selected.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA,

 

If there wasn't suffering in the world, then neither Bob Dylan nor Bono would have anything to sing about.  That is why god allows it to happen.  Also, what would C.S. Lewis have written "Surprised by Joy" about, if not for suffering?  Granted, "Surprised by Logic and a Common Sense Approach to Governing the Universe" has a nice ring to it, title-wise; but most would likely find it a boring read.

 

Thanks,

TRP

 

Agree, TRP.

 

I'll have to come up with a catchier title.  

.

.

.

But what humble says in his thread resonates (or anti-resonates?) with Ironhorse's 'understanding' of scripture.

 

IH is a "true believer" and so, according to humble, he should understand what the Bible says.

 

So why doesn't he understand that God is eternal, but everything else (like Satan) isn't.

 

He doesn't quite seem to grasp that it's God who is responsible for the war in heaven and all of the fallout from that needless conflict.

 

Such as this.

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Re: Humble's thread

 

What good is a road map if there are 41,000 different ideas about what is shows?  Some see mountains where others see a river and none of them can say with any confidence where the map is really leading them.  May as well just draw some squiggly lines on a piece of scratch paper and call it the body of christ.

[Jeff]

.

[ironhorse]

 

I realize the following is not a full answer not answer but it might help you to understand my point of view when we continue on in this topic.

 

To gain more understanding and the why or why nots of the narrative of the fall of man, I think we must go back to a much earlier event: the fall of Lucifer.

The scriptures tell that Lucifer one of the highest ranking angels.

At some point he decided to set himself up against God.

He was persuasive enough to have one third of angels to join him in this rebellion. So the question here is why didn’t God simply destroy Lucifer along with the others? God can do all things right? Snap his God finger, utter “Be gone.” No rebellion, no sin, no problem.

 

This a story helped me understand this a little better:

Pretend there are many citizens of a great kingdom ruled by a powerful magical king. The kingdom has always been at peace and the citizens happy, then one day one of his generals rebels against the king. He claims he can do better than the king.  He says some things that sound pretty persuasive. He soon gains a huge following. The rest of the citizens know of this (some are even having thoughts they might join the rebellion) and wait to see what the powerful king will do.

What if the powerful king uses his magical powers and immediately kills and destroys the rebels.

What would the other citizens think?

How would they view the king’s action?

Would they understand his action?

Would this cause more questions?

 

I heard Billy Graham answer this question once. He said it is easy to think God should have just destroyed Lucifer from the start or never created him in the first place but God took another view.

God decided to let the rebellion play out. He allowed this to prove to all in the universe that Lucifer’s ways are destructive and would cause great harm.

The scriptures speak of a great war in the universe.

I remember talking about this with some friends a few years after the first Star Wars movie. We had a great time speculating about what this war between God and Lucifer was waged.

Whatever it entailed, it was a major event in the universe and the battle continues here on earth.

 

Ironhorse,

 

Here's what I wrote to you in the Some Notes About Me thread, with one word changed.

So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?

Those that don't, never exist and their free will is not actually violated because they remain as un-actualized thoughts in the eternal mind of God.

The same point applies.  God commits no killing and no crime if he only creates those he foreknows will love him.  But by letting this pointless war go ahead he causes the kind of collateral damage in the pics below, where millions are forced to endure lives of pain, misery and indignity, followed by fiery incineration at his hand.  Please explain how letting this happen to even one person is a good, kind, loving, compassionate and merciful thing, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Here's what I wrote to you in the Some Notes About Me thread, with one word changed.

So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?

Those that don't, never exist and their free will is not actually violated because they remain as un-actualized thoughts in the eternal mind of God.

The same point applies.  God commits no killing and no crime if he only creates those he foreknows will love him.  But by letting this pointless war go ahead he causes the kind of collateral damage in the pics below, where millions are forced to endure lives of pain, misery and indignity, followed by fiery incineration at his hand.  Please explain how letting this happen to even one person is a good, kind, loving, compassionate and merciful thing, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?

 

So God can create angels, peer into the future, and then press rewind and then not create those who make the wrong choice. What kind of weird time zig zag is that? 

Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable.

 

 

Those that don't, never exist and their free will is not actually violated because they remain as un-actualized thoughts in the eternal mind of God.

 

 

“They” cannot remain anywhere, even un-actualized thoughts, if they never existed.

 

 

The same point applies.  God commits no killing and no crime if he only creates those he foreknows will love him.  But by letting this pointless war go ahead he causes the kind of collateral damage in the pics below, where millions are forced to endure lives of pain, misery and indignity, followed by fiery incineration at his hand.  Please explain how letting this happen to even one person is a good, kind, loving, compassionate and merciful thing, Ironhorse.

 

 

I would hate a god like you describe. I would hate such a puppet master.

God expressed more love and compassion than any being in the universe by granting us free will.