An Invitation To Sub_zer0 And Any Fundamentalist To Discuss Spirituality

[Guest sub_zer0]

Whatever you think you are doing - in reality you are making assumptions for "all Christians". You are assuming "all Christians" understand .... God, Jesus, Christ, the Bible and the world by the standards of your particular theology. That is a false assumption.

 

That is false, all I am assuming is that to be a Christian you need faith in Christ.

 

I am NOT the only Christian who understands God, Jesus, Christ, the Bible and the world differently than you do, Sub. There are many more. I posted a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. several posts ago. It bears repeating here. He was a Lutheran Minister - he did not share your theology.

 

There are set ways to believe in Christ and how to view Him. Any other way than what I have been talking about is NOT Christian.

 

 

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

 

This call for a worldwide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one’s tribe, race, class, and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all mankind. This oft misunderstood this oft misinterpreted concept, so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force, has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I’m not speaking of that force which is just emotional bosh. I am speaking of that force which all the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Muslim-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John: ---- Let us love one another (Yes), for love is God. (Yes) and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love --- If we love one another, God dwelleth in us and his love is perfected in us. --- Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day.

 

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says: --- Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil. therefore the first hope in ou

 

Dr. King was a Lutheran minister ... the theology he lived by was no where near the theology you live by. There are millions of Christians who would look at the theology of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and embrace it ... so do not make assumptions about "all Christians" here.

 

Let us love one another (Yes), for love is God. (Yes) and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love --- If we love one another, God dwelleth in us and his love is perfected in us. --- Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day.

 

If you think that isn't the Christian, or Christ centered attitude, you are wrong.

 

Thank you Sub. I would never attack you for your honest feelings, and I doubt anyone here would, and if they did I’m sure most of us would not approve. This is in fact what I have been looking for, and I agree with Curtdude that we react so strongly against hearing dogma. I feel I have heard pat answers and not you until now. Think about it: "Changed life? Where?" all we've heard is dogma. We've hear no spirituality. Dogma does not speak to the heart. It speaks to the mind and conflicts with the heart. Therein is the emotional disconnect.

 

When you hear me rail, it’s against the dogma. No doubt you will see more of it because it is very frustrating to see at work in another human being, and having experienced it firsthand, it is overwhelming clear to me and others what is going on. For now, a brief respite….

 

Wrong my beliefs, or what you call dogma, in Christ and the Bible is what forms my spirituality towards Him and acceptance of Him.

 

It has changed my life in a way, because I no longer do things to please myself, but to please the Lord.

[Open_Minded]

There are set ways to believe in Christ and how to view Him. Any other way than what I have been talking about is NOT Christian.

 

Hold that thought, Sub....

 

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

 

This call for a worldwide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one’s tribe, race, class, and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all mankind. This oft misunderstood this oft misinterpreted concept, so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force, has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I’m not speaking of that force which is just emotional bosh. I am speaking of that force which all the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Muslim-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John: ---- Let us love one another (Yes), for love is God. (Yes) and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love --- If we love one another, God dwelleth in us and his love is perfected in us. --- Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day.

 

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says: --- Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil.

 

And.....

 

Let us love one another (Yes), for love is God. (Yes) and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love --- If we love one another, God dwelleth in us and his love is perfected in us. --- Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day.

 

If you think that isn't the Christian, or Christ centered attitude, you are wrong.

 

Oh... Sub.... I think that quote above is a VERY Christ centered attitude. That wasn't my point. My point was - and still is - the following:

 

I am speaking of that force which all the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality

 

Notice Dr. King referred to all the "great religions" then he said the following: "Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality".

 

Sub ... Dr. King did NOT say, "Jesus Christ is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality".

 

Dr. King also included people beyond Christianity in the salvation of this LOVE that "is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality".

 

So... given the reality of the statement above ... the statement going back to this idea of LOVE as the salvation that so many have been talking about in so many ways on this thread ... we are at another crossroads (you and I, Sub). We've another point of decision.

 

I have been under the assumption that since Dr. King includes people from other religions in this salvation of Love that you do not understand Christ the way he did - and the way so many other Christians do. It would be wonderful if I were wrong - and I am open to that possibility. But... you are the only one who can clear it up.

 

Back to your first quote now....

 

There are set ways to believe in Christ and how to view Him. Any other way than what I have been talking about is NOT Christian.

 

So....now Sub - considering the fact that Dr. King was willing to embrace other religions and looked upon the Love experienced in those religions as equal to the Love experienced within the Christian tradition ... where are you at with it?

 

Do you feel that Dr. King understood Christ in the "Set" ways that you do?

[jrmarlin]

I am asking for this discussion because there have been numerous conversations on these boards about spirituality for those who have left the Christian faith, and I am struck with seeing no such conversations coming from those who place such a huge emphasis on knowing God, namely the fundamentalist Christian.

 

Not only am I not hearing these things even mentioned by them, but I am seeing a near blindness to this central focus at the heart of the Christian message they claim exclusive knowledge of! This is remarkable considering that the end of all this "knowing the Truth" should be the manifestation of a spiritual life?

 

Christian truth is not exclusive and I hope nobody claims they have "exclusive knowledge of it", as a Christian that is damaging to a very fundamental element. Namely of bringing the Gospel of Christ to all nations.

 

It is not only knowing this truth but believing in Him (Him is Jesus which is the ultimate truth), having faith and basing your personal life around Him. With that in mind, manifestation of the Holy Spirit should surface if you are indeed submitive to that spirit which is the will of God.

 

If sub_zer0 is unwilling to speak about how his beliefs have made him a more spiritual person, then I sincerely hope another fundamentalist Christian will approach this subject, which all others to date I have tried to engage have avoided completely without fail. We can quibble till the moon falls out of the sky about who has the correct interpretation of the Bible, but everyone knows a heart of humility and grace, and everyone knows arrogance and pride without needing a degree in Bible Arguments.

 

Let's discuss the manifestation of spiritual fruits that come from a fundamentalist approach to a spiritual life. I believe that would make a better argument for any belief being valid, than any apologetic ever could hope to do.

 

Now through the knowledge of Him, I have aquired great admiration, if not love in Christ. With that it instills courage to proclaim Him not only through works but by my words. Works being good deeds of bringing ones to Christ and a character that is produced in a Christian which is then showed outward to all that person encounters.

 

Here is what the Spirit of a Christian does NOT produce... "19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. "

 

The Spirit of a Christian should be one of "... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. " Galatians 5:22

 

It goes on to give us examples to live by in our lives.

 

5:25"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. "

Sub, your arguments have weakness. And NO. It is not Xianity's job to bring God's word to the masses. I am sure that if God is capable of making the world -- then God is perfectly capable of speaking on God's own behalf! How utterly narcisistic of you to even sit there and think your thought process and wild world of delusion is the only way to spirituality.

 

The mere fact that you have probably not one ounce of a clue of what true spirituality is, I don't really think that any intelligent person would listen to the likes of you. In addition, there is a big difference between KNOWING the path and WALKING the path. (thank you morpheus) Xians seem to be doing a lot of talking but not a lot of walking. Say what you mean and mean what you say!

 

Xians don't to have any franchise on the humility -- which is, once again, WRITTEN IN YOUR BIBLE AS A VIRTUE. Humility and Xianity just don't mix. Like Ice Cream and Pepto Bismal mixed together in a very nausiating milkshake.

 

Interesting fact: Of all the spiritual beliefs in this world, Xianity is the ONLY religion where the ,majority of its people are completely IGNORANT of ALL the other spiritual beliefs and practices -- as well as the least accepting of individual freedoms, differents and right to SPIRITUAL FREEDOM! You can't possibly know how to "inspire" me if you have no clue what I believe in the first place!

 

To think that you are the ones with the inside track / backstage pass to rock n' roll heaven is not only ludicrous but absolutely down right crazy.

 

My reply to that is: Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're full up on crazy here. (thank you, Jack Nicholson)

[SkepticOfBible]

Christians believe in Christ as their savior. He rose the third day to conquer death, etc, etc. I told you and pointed you to a site that answers the question of what a Christian is.

 

Big deal. I can probably point towards to catholic site or 20000 other sites which would claim that you are not a christian.

 

At the end of the day the defination of a "true" christian is based on personal theological preferences and whims. And conviently "god" would always agree with that particular christian.

 

Sub_zero even you believe in unbiblical doctrines, yet you want to assert that this is approved by god

 

This is just one of the things that shows christianity is just as man made as others. It's been like 2000 years, and yet the body of christ can't even agree on a single issue

 

Please check out the following bible study. It is perhaps one of the view honest bible study that I have found in the net. Most christians(including fundies) appreciate this site.

 

TwoPaths.com

 

And I see you didn't answer my last post here, even though I tried to reply to every point of yours. Wow, what a waste of time.

[Alice]

Hi Sub,

 

you asked me ....

 

So how is the Christian view of love:

 

"Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It is not rude. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong doing. It does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres."

Corinthians 13

 

Any different than what love should be?

 

I say ... no different Sub - the Corinthians description of love is a wonderful piece of writing, truly inspirational and one which resonates deep inside my spirit as being the truth about love ....

 

Can you not see how this is not a description of God as understood by literalist Christians - and that the literal BibleGod does not behave in a loving way. If Love is to keep no record of wrongs - what place hell? If Love is kind - what place eternal torment and wailing and gnashing? If love does not envy - what's with this jealous God? If it always protects and always perseveres - whats with time running out and eternal judgement?

 

At the moment Sub, it sounds as if you are able to keep these contradictions compartmentalised in your head. If your experience turns out to be anything like mine - one day these will become too much for you. One day you will love a child and hopefully realise that the love you feel is the love described in Corinthians - not the love of control and conditions that is BibleGod type love.

 

My heart aches for the damage that control and conditional love does to human relationships - I hope it won't damage your relationships in the way it has the capacity to do so. I think the damage that is done by believing controlling conditional relationships constitute pure love - is related to how strongly a person holds this belief. The 'saving grace' in my relationships whilst I was still ascribing to fundamentalist Christianity was that deep down I recognised that behaving in this way wasn't loving (although it was often really confusing - because my Christian belief system certainly sanctioned controlling conditional relationship and called them 'loving')

 

I care how you feel towards Christ, and I am trying to help share the knowledge of Him is all.

 

Can you see that this statement suggests that you don't 'care' about us at all? Your 'concern' is related to your relationship with Christ.

 

So who sets your standards?

 

I used to worry about this Sub. I can remember believing that morality would crumble without God's standard being applied and enforced. Then I realised that I had standards, even without Jesus. I realised that I was not a depraved evil entity bent on selfish gain and sin if not for Christ.

 

I am no longer 'required' to do good Sub, by an outside deity - I choose to, because I am a good and loving and caring person. Not that I think there isn't room for improvement. I make mistakes, I have grumpy days - but deep down I have good and loving standards.

 

Do you want to sin Sub? Without Jesus telling you what to do - would you want to hurt others and act in a way that is entirely self centered? I don't know the answer to these questions and I'm not suggesting anything either way - all I can tell you is that I woke up to the fact that I think the Golden Rule is a great starting point and that I believe in mercy and compassion because they are good things in and of themselves.

 

 

Experiences with God for me, are extremely personal and very revealing of my heart. To put that on display in such vivid words is a bit much and I am thinking would be laughed at by most.

 

I am really sorry that you would think that revealing what is personal and heartfelt would be laughed at. I hope you will forgive me, if any of my comments have ever conveyed this impression to you.

 

My personal experiences with God, .....

 

Sub goes on to explain the inner spiritual impact of his belief in Christ ...

 

 

Beautifully written Sub, thank you for sharing this with us.

 

It is always love for anybody who sees it and does it, but it isn't recognized as love to Christ when you don't love Him.

 

If this is true - I feel really sad for God. I feel sad that he misses out on the joy of recognising the love that is all around.

 

 

 

And I see you didn't answer my last post here, even though I tried to reply to every point of yours. Wow, what a waste of time.

 

Skeptic ... I think Sub has been really trying to do his best in this thread. Its quite hard to respond to the comments of so many people. The value in what you have written shouldn't be measured by the response.

[Ziggy]

Alice your last post was beautiful! It feels strange to say that (I have no idea why) but it was beautiful and heart warming. I am quite moved

 

I have a thought regardig the difference between Love and Sub's Religiously Sourced love

As a Christian I prayed quite alot.. Yet when something really bad happened (a serious illness for a family member or real anguish in myself for whatever reason) then this is when God seems most distant. In fact NON existant and then the source of my supposed love disapeared and what was i left with was anger and frustration. Not love

 

It is easy to love when things are going well of course. Would the love you talk about survive intact when bad things happen? Is it easier to accept the bad stuff that does happen in life when you don't believe in BibleGod because there is no one to blame? Life isn't good for everyone.. can they fele the love in the same way as you describe? Just thinking out loud.

[mmccaskill]

Oh?

 

Aparantly you are really good at adding things to the bible to justify it, despite there existing NO verses to support your assumption.

 

Tell me, how do you go from having TWO people PERIOD to having enough people to sustain a population.....WITHOUT incest occurring?

 

Who did Cain and Abel marry? Had to be their own sisters.

 

THAT'S called incest!

 

Don't go inventing more people that aren't verified by the bible either.

 

And God DOES advocate it by NOT punishing it.....something he's clearly NOT hesitent about doing ACCORDING to YOUR STUPID BIBLE.

 

He doesn't punish Lot's daughters for it. So God is okay with it there too.

 

You go from talking as though god cares about every little thing we do, to god just going "Eh...that's humans for ya" and not really being concerned at all.

 

Either you really need to recognize your view of one god is badly contradictory......or you believe in two seperate gods here!

 

No it isn't called incest. It is called the need to populate the earth. Genetics of man was starting to decline and wasn't bothered by sex within family.

I guess the definition of incest is being redefined? What a crock. That you can't seem to see how you're dilluting yourself is what is sad. Redefining words to validate your religion? Rubbish.

 

Basically you're saying the end justifies the means. So it is ok for me to fuck my sister to populate the earth but not for pleasure.

 

Because God doesn't punish somebody right then and there, He allows it?

Doesn't make much sense to punish someone years and years later for something done right now. Thats like me spanking my child when he's 35 for coloring on the wall now.

 

You are forgetting that God judges all for their acts and their heart towards Him.

You are forgetting that until you can objectively prove God, your arguments remain invalid.

 

 

Christians believe in Christ as their savior. He rose the third day to conquer death, etc, etc. I told you and pointed you to a site that answers the question of what a Christian is.

 

Big deal. I can probably point towards to catholic site or 20000 other sites which would claim that you are not a christian.

 

At the end of the day the defination of a "true" christian is based on personal theological preferences and whims. And conviently "god" would always agree with that particular christian.

Apparently he's never heard of the True Scotsman fallacy.

[white_raven23]

Oh?

 

Aparantly you are really good at adding things to the bible to justify it, despite there existing NO verses to support your assumption.

 

Tell me, how do you go from having TWO people PERIOD to having enough people to sustain a population.....WITHOUT incest occurring?

 

Who did Cain and Abel marry? Had to be their own sisters.

 

THAT'S called incest!

 

Don't go inventing more people that aren't verified by the bible either.

 

And God DOES advocate it by NOT punishing it.....something he's clearly NOT hesitent about doing ACCORDING to YOUR STUPID BIBLE.

 

He doesn't punish Lot's daughters for it. So God is okay with it there too.

 

You go from talking as though god cares about every little thing we do, to god just going "Eh...that's humans for ya" and not really being concerned at all.

 

Either you really need to recognize your view of one god is badly contradictory......or you believe in two seperate gods here!

 

No it isn't called incest. It is called the need to populate the earth. Genetics of man was starting to decline and wasn't bothered by sex within family.

I guess the definition of incest is being redefined? What a crock. That you can't seem to see how you're dilluting yourself is what is sad. Redefining words to validate your religion? Rubbish.

 

Basically you're saying the end justifies the means. So it is ok for me to fuck my sister to populate the earth but not for pleasure.

 

Exactly! He's splitting hairs here. And I can't figure out how the third sentence is supposed to make any sense at all. How does 'genetics of man was starting to decline' make sense in relation to the evidence of Genesis? You are starting with TWO fresh off the showroom floor people according to the fairytale! When was there time for genetic decline? Which of the two people were declining? And if there were some sort of genetic disaster..... (nevermind there not being time for one) how the HELL was it to be improved by incest?!!

 

Perhaps you need to have a look see at seriously endangered species.....tigers in the wild for example. Inbreeding causes genetic decline! It's not the solution for it you scientific nimrod! Sufficient inbreeding causes serious problems for a population intending to grow.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

 

An inbred individual is likely to possess several physical and health defects, in addition to higher incidence of inheriting a poor trait. They include:

 

reduced fertility both in litter size and in sperm viability

increased congenital disorders

fluctuating facial asymmetry

lower birth rate

higher infant mortality

slower growth rate

smaller adult size

loss of immune system function.

 

How the heck does this little list benefit an already small population, by making it dwindle further?

[Eponymic]

How the heck does this little list benefit an already small population, by making it dwindle further?

 

Plus he's not even taking into account that, if you're such a wise creator, why would you only create two people, when as the creator, you should bloody well known that you're setting them up for genetic deficiency because they have to... wait a second!

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to avoid sinning!

Because in order to procreate Adam & Eve had to have sex with each other, incest.

Bam! there's no avoiding it.

 

God could have created a bunch of other people but he made two, set them up to lose, and then you have the gaul to say that it wasn't his fault or responsibility? Get out of town man.

 

And to reiterate a point, this once again show a very much less than loving God. By creating an imperfect being & forcing them into conditions where they would fail.

[NotBlinded]

It means nothing if you do not think of Him as He called Himself, the Son of God and the way, the truth and the life.

I'll try again too...

 

If he called himself the way, the truth and the life, let's pick The Truth and use this when Jesus says "I" or "me" and see how that looks:

 

“If I, cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”

 

If The truth, cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

“I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

 

The Truth is the light of the world; he that followeth The Truth shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

 

Jesus chose to use personal pronouns with his teachings. This makes it harder to get to what he was teaching.

 

Here is an excerpt from an article where I also got the above information. It is truly a great article and speaks to what we have been trying to say to you. Please read it!

 

Many passages in the Bible are said in different ways, meaning essentially the same thing. For example, Jesus said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Jesus also said, “Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3). Being converted is the same thing as being born again. When we are converted, we are as honest, truthful and humble as little children … the way we were when we were born into this world … pure in heart and spiritually perfect.

 

Contrary to what many people believe, we were not born with a sinful nature. We acquired a sinful nature because we were born into a sinful environment … an environment out of harmony with truth, God and nature.

 

When we have cleaned the inside of the cup and platter, when we are converted and as humble as little children, when we have purified our heart, when have obliterated the devils from our heart, when we have sanctified ourselves, and so on, we are born again … meaning essentially the same thing as doing what the Apostle Paul said, “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” (Romans 12:2).

 

We have renewed our mind when we have purified our heart. When our heart is pure, we enjoy peace and joy—heaven. The Apostle Paul said, “The kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy” (Romans 14:17).

 

Jesus said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21). From the comments I have heard from fundamentalists, it seems that they really do not believe what Jesus said. In all simplicity, the belief of fundamentalists about heaven is contrary to what Jesus said.

 

Further, Jesus said, “The kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15) … at hand meaning here and now.

 

Note that Jesus said, “believe the gospel.” Still today, it seems that many (including many who profess to be Christian) do not believe the Gospel. It doesn't seem like fundamentalists really believe that heaven is within us. They seem to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, trying to make it seem like Jesus said something other than what he said.

 

Jesus said, “Ye blind guides [false teachers], which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel” (Matthew 23:24). It seems that fundamentalist teachers are doing today what Jesus said false teachers were doing about 2,000 years ago. They strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, distorting the Holy Scriptures, trying to make the Scriptures agree with their false beliefs.

 

Think about it! If we study and assimilate what Jesus said, we realize that the only place to find peace and joy — to find heaven — is within ourselves. Thus, the only place to seek is within ourselves. The only way to find peace, joy and happiness — to find heaven — is by purifying our heart.

 

We purify our heart by discovering the truth that sets us free … free from all that fearful, negative, ego stuff embedded in our mind that keeps us alienated from God. We discover truth by doing what David the Psalmist said to do about 3,000 years ago: “Be still and commune with your own heart.” When our heart is pure we have peace and joy.

 

Please read the entire article here: The True Teachings of Christianity: The Gospel Jesus Preached

[Curtdude]

....My personal expierences with God, which move me spiritually are almost directly related while I am in deep prayer and forgiveness of my sins. I am clear-minded and not worried about anything but who I am speaking to, my Lord and Savior. What I have done to wrong Him through my life is something that brings grave regret and shame to me and I usually cry tears because of His love being shown to me in the prayer of forgiveness.

 

When praying out loud, deep down secrets of darkness in my soul are revealed to me. For me, when praying and tears start flowing from my eyes, when on my knees, confessing my soul to God, my body literally becomes numb. I for one, do not think that is by chance the reaction my body has to the outward decleration of my sins to Christ. I know the Holy Spirit is seeing the light from all the darkness within me. It is, as if, God Himself is speaking to me through those expierences of spiritual wholeness I feel after praying so deeply, so in love with the Lord....

 

Okay, I had to think about this passage, Mr. Sub. You mention "grave regret and shame" and "deep down secrets of darkness in my soul"...I read on another thread and find that you're 21 years old. Are you prepared to live the next 40-50 years w/ this constant battle of regret, confession, forgiveness, regret, confession, forgiveness over and over and over again? This is one of the emotional costs of christian dogma. I freely admit it does allow you to feel like you've been redeemed, but it only lasts a little while. Soon your flesh will come surging back, because, geez, guess what? You're human. And I can't imagine that you've done anything so heinous, so reprehensible that it would require BigDaddy god to send you to hell forever. Forever is a awfully long time. But I do understand your post on this.

 

This is a spiritual question for all of us: is this type of religion tolerable emotionally? Does it make us feel put down all the time? Is the only way to live?

 

I couldn't take it after 10 years. I left it at age 21. As a freethinker, I won't demand that all christians do as I do. The fact that you're posting on this site exposes you to things (hopefully) to ponder.

 

Take it easy and again, thanks for the explanation of where you're at. Now we know.

[NotBlinded]

(I have some catching up to do.... )

 

Sub, do you see any of the similarities between bible literal christianity and the pharisees of Jesus' day?

Chrisitianity views the kingdom of Heaven as something that is being built-up right here and now through the good news that is the Gospel of Christ. So now, I fail to see how I am like the Pharisee's in connection with the view of Christianity and the kingdom of Heaven.

The Pharisees were literalists and strict legalists (who were historically only really prominent in the region and time where Matthew wrote his particular Gospel). The connection I would make between your style of strict interpretation and the Pharisees that Matthew used the Jesus character in his Gospel to attack, is that the letter of law kills the spirit of the Law. “White washed sepultures, full of dead men’s bones,” etc. Strictly religious, no spirituality despite “believing the ways of God.” Today's Fundamentalists are the Pharisees of Mathew’s day - point blank .

George Bush is a symbol of the free world. George Bush is a real person. Sub, you do not understand language here. A rose is a symbol of love. A gold ring is a symbol of marriage. Christ is a symbol of love. Etc. So yes, Christ is a symbol, and whether he was god, man, or myth is irrelevant to the role he plays as a symbol of human aspirations. It is in this context I speak at all times when I say symbol.

Jesus does indeed play a role as a symbol of human aspirations, but what is the point of living to up to that when you don't even believe what Christ called Himself? It is not irrelevant. It means nothing if you do not think of Him as He called Himself, the Son of God and the way, the truth and the life.

Let's try this again. God is love. God shows His love through Christ. So Christ is a symbol of not only love, but God's love for us!

It means nothing to you. Let me clarify, and repeat for you what I’m sure you’ve heard going on several thousand times by now: No two Christians believe the same thing about God. With that fact in mind, assigning specific meanings to the symbol of Christ is in fact irrelevant to anyone outside you. I see Christ as a created personality that symbolizes many positive things, things that are reflective of the author’s views of spiritual insights. Some of those views have meaning to me; others are reflective of the culture of the day, various other contemporary philosophies that they were trying to address through the character of Jesus, etc. You choose from those things what is meaningful to you. Episcopalians choose what is meaningful to them, Lutherans the same, Baptists the same, and… me the same.

 

The real pertinent question is this: Are the things that I or anyone else takes Christ to symbolize, positive, healthy things whose fruits bear life and love? If not, then I would see this as not valuing Christ as a positive symbol.

 

The reason for this thread is not to dispute or challenge how you believe about God or Christ, or any other thing from the Bible. It’s about the fruits that come as a result of those beliefs. Are they healthy? Does it make you more connected with life and all people around you, or does it isolate you and keep you from embracing the genuine love that is the world everywhere around you? When I hear you seeming to gloss over the magnitude of the Love that exists in world, by saying “It’s meaningful to me, but Christ doesn’t value it because it’s not about him” (in so many words), I’m really not hearing a heart that experiences love in this world. That is why I find these sorts of dogmatic beliefs so disheartening. I hate to see any human disconnected from the world because of these inflexible views on something so unspecific, as is borne out by the 30,000 different Christian sects surrounding it. That phenomenon fits within my framework of understanding easily, whereas it betrays the assumed perfection of yours.

Yes, I am using your entire post for this:

 

AMEN!

 

Sub, can you see Antlerman's fruits?

[Open_Minded]

It means nothing if you do not think of Him as He called Himself, the Son of God and the way, the truth and the life.

I'll try again too...

 

If he called himself the way, the truth and the life, let's pick The Truth and use this when Jesus says "I" or "me" and see how that looks:

 

“If I, cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”

 

Wow .... NotBlinded.... did I ever tell you I LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK. May I take this all a step further?

 

If we take into account that the "I AM" verses are in the Gospel of John... then we must look at the Gospel of John very closely. What was the intent of this gospel, how did it differ from the other three "synoptic" gospels? The synoptic gospels did not have such an abundance of "I AM" verses - this abundance can ONLY be found in John.

 

So... let's look at John. What did the author of John see in Jesus (mind you I am not saying what did ALL early christians see in Jesus, specifically what did the author of John see)?

 

Well following are the first verses of John:

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

 

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he came to testify to the light. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.

 

Now... to take this a step further. LOGOS is the greek word for "THE WORD". Logos also points to Wisdom of God, Sophia, etc...

 

So.. the author of John was pointing to Jesus as the WISDOM OF GOD MADE FLESH.

 

Keep this thought in mind .... let's go a bit further into John.

 

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

 

Once again, the author of John is pointing to Jesus and seeing something IN him that transcended time. When he made this "before Abraham was, I am." he was not pointing to the physical Jesus who walked the earth. We all know the physical Jesus did not walk the earth BEFORE Abraham.

 

The author of John pointed to Jesus and saw IN him something that transcended time and space twice that I can think of off hand. He specifically pointed to this WORD IN Jesus at the beginning of the Gospel. Then he used John 8:58 to point once again to something he saw IN Jesus as existing before Abraham. AND he picks up on language any Jewish listener would understand when he says "before Abraham was, I am." Those words were pointing to something infinite, eteranal the Sacred ONE IN Jesus.

 

ONLY in this context do the verses like:

 

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

make any sense.

 

The I AM verses are abundant in the Gospel of John, they MUST be read in light of the whole gospel, in light of what the author saw IN Jesus.

 

You are right NotBlinded ... when Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life" he is saying "The WORD (WISDOM, LOGOS, SOFIA) IN me is the way, the truth and the life." Infinite Wisdom, Logos, etc... is infinitely available to all of creation. It is NOT limited to one specific group of human beings.

 

Oh.... BTW...Sub,, I'm still waiting for your reply to my last post on Martin Luther King, Jr....

[NotBlinded]

How wrong so far... How did I recieve my spirituality? By accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit to come within my and my heart and change me from the inside out. That way my insides will reflect my outside actions of a Christian spirit......God is there and always was. But you seek Him with a heart of Christ and you will find Him.

 

I think I just "spoke over your shoulder." hehehehe

 

Your restatement of dualism mirrors my observation: you see christ as an outside entity and you are the object being worked upon by god. Yes, according to christian dogma, the heart of the believer is changed from within, but only as a result of being the object of god's regeneration of the flesh and spirit.

 

My obervation of your point of view remains intact: you are acted upon by god, and the results are not from you, but from without (meaning from outside of the self). Without this influence from outside the self, you are just a worthless sinner deserving of hell. With this point of view, no good can come from yourself alone...all must come from god. Perhaps this is why there is a lack of spiritual feeling that we're getting from you, Mr.Sub. You can repeat back the book, but we know that the dogma leaves the self as a worthless hell-deserving soul. Not really a cheery thought. As you have stated, Christ is everything for you. At least you're consistent.

 

Curtdude, your insights are right on. What many Christians, and others, don't recognize is this duality is within themselves. Like you say, they see outside forces acting upon them as god and satan, when it is actually god/good and ego/evil. These are dualities of our very nature and when we identify with our egos, we are letting our mind 'possess' us. Our mind is a tool to be used by the observer, it isn't the observer itself. What sub calls god, is in his own nature and what sub calls satan is in him because he cannot separate his mind from who he really is. Very sad indeed.

 

Sub has no self-worth because he doesn't see himself as being good or bad, he is just a puppet to god and satan in his mind.

 

As the article I previously referenced explains:

 

"Jesus also said, “Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” (Luke 4:8). Satan is our fearful, false ego-self, the cause of all mental turmoil and suffering. And many people worship Satan; they abide by the whims of the ego, rather than doing the will of their Father.

 

When seekers have overcome the world of the ego, they have put Satan behind them. We either serve our true divine spiritual self, or we serve our false ego-self. It’s one or the other; we cannot serve both at the same time. Jesus said, “Ye cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 7:24). From an observation of the condition of our families, our society, our nation — the very world itself — doesn’t it appear that the masses are serving Satan? Satan (our false ego-self) will keep us in its thrall until we discover the truth that sets us free."

[Antlerman]

Sub,

 

I'm laying back a little and just following the posts for awhile, but I wanted to say something to you. First of all, I appreciate you opening up about yourself a little more with us. It helps to place you on a level with the rest of us vulnerable humans. I read your brief testimony in the other thread and wanted to share one brief thing about me with you.

 

I have a son around your age, and he is a fundamentalist Christian with very much the same dogmatic, black and white views as you. He lives in another state, in a backwater town, and was raised by his mother without my direct influence on a daily basis. When I speak with him about anything in life he is incredibly naive, filtering everything through the evangelical doctrines about God/Christ/The Bible, rather than exploring any other possibilities. He is blocked.

 

This is quite disheartening for me, as those who know me here can well image. I try to open his mind to any one of a thousand other possibilities in looking at other possibilities, yet he is not allowing himself to entertain any possibilities that are outside the safety zone of 4 walls of dogmatic fundamentalist doctrines. My consolation: When I was his age (your age), I too thought I knew it all. It was all in black and white. "It says it right here, clearly in the Bible..." I was amazed how other people could not see the plain truth that was right there!!

 

I have a curious soul and I want to know more and experience all that there is. Fundamentalism ran out of any real growth room for me. If my son's spirit is anything like mine, I have confidence it will not be able to contain him either. I hope the same for you too Sub.

[Open_Minded]

....This is quite disheartening for me, as those who know me here can well image. I try to open his mind to any one of a thousand other possibilities in looking at other possibilities, yet he is not allowing himself to entertain any possibilities that are outside the safety zone of 4 walls of dogmatic fundamentalist doctrines. My consolation: When I was his age (your age), I too thought I knew it all. It was all in black and white. "It says it right here, clearly in the Bible..." I was amazed how other people could not see the plain truth that was right there!!

 

I have a curious soul and I want to know more and experience all that there is. Fundamentalism ran out of any real growth room for me. If my son's spirit is anything like mine, I have confidence it will not be able to contain him either. I hope the same for you too Sub.

 

Oh ... Antlerman... thank you for keeping this thread focussed on unconditional, forgiving love.

[NotBlinded]

I'll be hoping for your son too, Antlerman. My Dad is a huge fundy and he has NO idea about this awesome new insight of mine, that he has still conversed and loved me even though he is angry and sending me Illuminati End Times crap; makes me know that even if he doesn't accept it, he still loves me.

I have soooo much wanted to share this insight with my sister and other family members. So far, I have only chosen 1 to talk to. She listens, but doesn't understand and is unknowingly condescending. She is happy I found something, but then hopes I will continue to strive for the truth! I told her that was condescending and she looked at me funny. She doesn't understand that what she believes causes her to be this way without any knowledge of it. When the truth divides, can it be the truth?

 

So, I don't tell anyone else for fear of this same unintended condescension. Oh the horror of it all!

 

Antlerman...me too. We can hope there is hope!

[NotBlinded]

I'll be hoping for your son too, Antlerman. My Dad is a huge fundy and he has NO idea about this awesome new insight of mine, that he has still conversed and loved me even though he is angry and sending me Illuminati End Times crap; makes me know that even if he doesn't accept it, he still loves me.

I have soooo much wanted to share this insight with my sister and other family members. So far, I have only chosen 1 to talk to. She listens, but doesn't understand and is unknowingly condescending. She is happy I found something, but then hopes I will continue to strive for the truth! I told her that was condescending and she looked at me funny. She doesn't understand that what she believes causes her to be this way without any knowledge of it.

 

So, I don't tell anyone else for fear of this same unintended condescension. Oh the horror of it all!

 

Isn't that sad? Maybe one day, as with many here, there eyes will be opened; to the TRUTH. You made a great post with that Notblinded, a great one.

Thank you so much Serene.

 

I can honestly say, like I have never said before even when I was a Christian...I can sincerely feel the love of the people here that are truly speaking from their hearts. I can feel it from sub too when he posted honestly about himself.

 

I can also now see the love in a stranger's face when they look at their child or when they are just walking through the store. I never saw that before.

 

It means nothing if you do not think of Him as He called Himself, the Son of God and the way, the truth and the life.

I'll try again too...

 

If he called himself the way, the truth and the life, let's pick The Truth and use this when Jesus says "I" or "me" and see how that looks:

 

“If I, cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”

 

Wow .... NotBlinded.... did I ever tell you I LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK. May I take this all a step further?

 

<snip> (only because of space...it was very profound!)

 

You are right NotBlinded ... when Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life" he is saying "The WORD (WISDOM, LOGOS, SOFIA) IN me is the way, the truth and the life." Infinite Wisdom, Logos, etc... is infinitely available to all of creation. It is NOT limited to one specific group of human beings.

If I say that you have told me that you like the way I think, are you going to quit saying it? If so, then I would have to say, no you never said that!

 

I think Jesus made it clear that he and "the father" were one. What was not so clear is that he was not meaning for people to worship his form. Although, it can be deduced from his teachings that he was here to teach and when people looked at him they should be seeing 'the father'. He was denying his form, so why would one choose to worship that which he denyed?

 

It is very hard to understand this though when people equate their form to who they are.

 

Form = ego/or identification with form

Father = god/wisdom/truth/life/love

[white_raven23]

How the heck does this little list benefit an already small population, by making it dwindle further?

 

Plus he's not even taking into account that, if you're such a wise creator, why would you only create two people, when as the creator, you should bloody well known that you're setting them up for genetic deficiency because they have to... wait a second!

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to avoid sinning!

Because in order to procreate Adam & Eve had to have sex with each other, incest.

Bam! there's no avoiding it.

 

 

Hey! You are absolutely right! If God crafted Eve from Adam's own rib, then genetically she's an exact match with Adam with the exception of being female! That makes her genetically no different than her being Adam's own fraternal twin!

Why did I never think of this before? I was thinking of the incest having to start with Cain and Abel, but no.....it was incest from the get go!

 

And it totally screws up any notion of Genesis being reality in any way too. No mention is made anywhere of God "sprouting" more people for these people to procreate with.

 

Since incest taboos have been around longer than the actual science to understand that incest causes genetic degrading, pre-scientific cultures had to have some inkling from their own rough powers of observation that the families who played together had serious birth defects and low infant survival. Hence the incest taboo.

 

So it's not like people back then weren't aware of the potential problems. Yet Genesis, like the pagan beliefs considered "mythology", doesn't address the issue.

[Antlerman]

Oh ... Antlerman... thank you for keeping this thread focussed on unconditional, forgiving love.

I'm trying to keep this thread focused and on topic. There's been a lot of good coming from this so far, IMO.

[Eponymic]

So it's not like people back then weren't aware of the potential problems. Yet Genesis, like the pagan beliefs considered "mythology", doesn't address the issue.

 

And any book you're trying to follow as gospel should darn well give you specifics with things like this. Otherwise, how do you know what the truth is?

[SkepticOfBible]

So how is the Christian view of love:

 

"Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It is not rude. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong doing. It does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres."

Corinthians 13

 

Any different than what love should be?

 

That is just one of the defination of love, I suppose. I don't think it is easy to define love.

 

In any case if this is what you mean by that, I don't see how the christian God fits this definatiom

 

Love is patient.

 

Your god certainly is not patient, because he wants to make our decision in a very short period of time, considering he is eternal. That too based on very dodgy evidence.

 

It does not envy.

Off course he is, he doesn't want anyone woshipiing somebody else.

 

It does not boast. It is not proud

haha. Do we need to even go through the verses where he does exactly that?

 

It is not easily angered.

Yeah, off course killing a man for saving a religious object from falling is just an example how easily he gets offended. Just imagine what god might have said: "Damn you Uzzah! Don't ever touch my Ark! It's mine, you hear me, mine!!"

 

It keeps no record of wrong doing.

Then why do we get punished eternally for our unbeliefs?

 

It does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres.

 

Really, then where was the protection, when God allowed his servant, Satan to torture Job? Why didn't God protect Job's wife and children from death?Ohh I forgot God wanted to "test" Job to see whether he will break under pressure, just like a child would "test" a small pup by hurting it to see whether it yelps?

 

And how about the thousands of Christian women and Christian children who get raped (that too right in the house of the God). Why does God fails to protect these people who he calls his own, in the hour of need?

 

Sub_zero tried to say the consequence of hell because of improper choice, is just a fact of life and is not a threat

 

Using this Christian's type of superficial logic, the Mafia doesn't threaten anyone either.

 

If a shopkeeper fails to pay protection money to the Mafia, they will suffer the consequences of not believing or respecting the Mafia's desire to have power over them and be their "protector".

 

Their shops will be vandalized and robbed by the Mafia as a consequence of deciding not to pay protection money as insurance against vandalism and robbery.

 

On the other hand, if they choose to pay the protection money, the Mafia will not disrupt their business.

 

Using the Christian whitewash system, the Mafia does NOT issue threats!

 

The ultimatum of the Mafia is simply a fact of life, just like the threat of hell.

[Antlerman]

Excuse me please... Genisis, situalitonal ethics, and genetics appears to be getting way off topic here. It's an interesting subject to be sure, but doesn't really belong in this thread. This is the colesseum, so staying on topic is important.

 

Thanks

[SkepticOfBible]

Excuse me please... Genisis, situalitonal ethics, and genetics appears to be getting way off topic here. It's an interesting subject to be sure, but doesn't really belong in this thread. This is the colesseum, so staying on topic is important.

 

Thanks

Yeah I know, even before you said it I changed my content. It's too tempting I suppose.

[Antlerman]

Yeah I know, even before you said it I changed my content. It's too tempting I suppose.

Trust me, I want to jump in on that topic badly! I'm just trying to keep myself true to my promise. You should start that as another topic. I really want to talk about situational ethics and the Bible...