for TAP totallyatpeace

[Ouroboros]

TAP shouldn't be forced to deconvert. If that is not broke, don't fix it. TAP is a good person and should not be forced to be a atheist.

There's a phrase I coined. "Forced atheism is China but unforced atheism is Sweden."

 

You must be like Sweden in order not to deconvert TAP. Let her breathe and make her religious decision.

 

Niceee touch, man. Yay, for Sweden! But I love America too.

 

You're so right, conversion comes from inside, but we can still tease TAP, just a little bit... please, please, please, just a little… ... … just kidding.

 

I said it before and say it again. TAP you're splendid, and that you've been on this site for so long, and actually are brave enough to take on all these people, shows that you feel comfortable with who you are at the moment. But I also know that things like that can change, and if it happens we'll be here supporting you through it.

 

When I was at my “peak” of faith, around 15 years ago, I was extremely convinced that I would never leave my faith. And look at me now, damn was I completely wrong! But at the time I was really scared to have a conversation or discussion with anyone that would challenge my beliefs, but you are not scared, and I commend you for it.

[Guest Tiffany]

I'm sorry TAP,

 

I went overboard with my comments and made you a target for all that I hate about Christianity. I hope you will forgive me, even though I probably don't deserve it.

 

I am truly very sorry.

 

The pain of losing my best friend to a gay basher has made me ... bitter and hateful. I hope I haven't made a complete ass out of myself and I hope the rest of the Ex-C community will forgive me as well.

 

I think I need to take some time off the board, I'm sorry for making a fool of myself, I'll be back in a few months.

 

I'm Sorry TAP.

[Ouroboros]

I'm sorry TAP,

 

I went overboard with my comments and made you a target for all that I hate about Christianity. I hope you will forgive me, even though I probably don't deserve it.

 

I am truly very sorry.

 

The pain of losing my best friend to a gay basher has made me ... bitter and hateful. I hope I haven't made a complete ass out of myself and I hope the rest of the Ex-C community will forgive me as well.

 

I think I need to take some time off the board, I'm sorry for making a fool of myself, I'll be back in a few months.

 

I'm Sorry TAP.

 

NO TIFFY, Don't Leave! We have to be able to have disagreements, that's part of life, and heck no one is perfect, then it would be way to boring. I’m sure TAP is ok. Aren’t you TAP?

[dogmatically_challenged]

TAP shouldn't be forced to deconvert. If that is not broke, don't fix it. TAP is a good person and should not be forced to be a atheist.

There's a phrase I coined. "Forced atheism is China but unforced atheism is Sweden."

 

You must be like Sweden in order not to deconvert TAP. Let her breathe and make her religious decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Attempting to deconvert someone is not forcing someone to become an atheist. There are many belief systems besides Christianity.

 

When people interact with eachother and question eachother, that can be a good thing. It is better than stagnating in our own beliefs and certitudes. If you read my argument against biblical coherency you will see some parts in it that are not correct. If Tap breaks down my post she may point out some things that I got wrong and she may admit some of the things I pointed out were correct. We can both benefit from interaction through questioning. Even if she rips my argument to shreds I STILL WIN. We both would.

 

I will apologize for being rude or for building strawmen ( which I can do in ignorance) if I am guilty of it, but I will never regret questioning. Questioning plays a part in humankinds success and if anything is holy or righteous questioning definately is; regadless if there are gods or not. Would you sentence Socrates to death? Was he a lowly character? Was he really trying to poison peoples minds? We may not all be Socrotes exaclty, but freethought will benefit humankind more so than methods that are not dynamic. Methods that are nothing but a tired and sorry old horse that did its job and should not be ridden any longer.

 

I know that there is a right way to --> work together <-- in a discussion or debate and a wrong way, some tactics are counterproductive. Anyone is welcome to criticize what I post. This is official " I welcome constructive criticism any time."

 

Should Tap tell me she is no longer interested in debate or discussion of her beliefs I will be a gentleman and kindly allow for discussion to change to something else. I have already made it crystal clear that I hold Tap in high esteem, even though I personaly can't say the same for Christianity.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Don't leave Tiff. Read some of my posts and see if you feel more embarrased for me than for yourself. I will miss talking to you. You are one of my favorites here.

 

Don't leave. I have PM you. Read it.

[Ouroboros]

I wonder if Tiffy misunderstood?

[Totallyatpeace]

Should Tap tell me she is no longer interested in debate or discussion of her beliefs I will be a gentleman and kindly allow for discussion to change to something else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you kidding??!! We still have to talk about how God hated Esau.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Are you kidding??!! We still have to talk about how God hated Esau. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like you very much Tap. Everyone is my teacher, and some make that obvious to me just by naturaly being who they are. Even though we don't agree on the supernatural; you have qualities I want for myself.

[Totallyatpeace]

I like you very much Tap.  Everyone is my teacher, and some make that obvious to me just by naturaly being who they are. Even though we don't agree on the supernatural; you have qualities I want for myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Give me some time to catch my breath and study. (You better study, too!)

[Merlinfmct87]

I like you very much Tap.  Everyone is my teacher, and some make that obvious to me just by naturaly being who they are. Even though we don't agree on the supernatural; you have qualities I want for myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to agree. Very well said.

 

Merlin

[dogmatically_challenged]

Give me some time to catch my breath and study. (You better study, too!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I won't be able to post until next friday as I must study. I am slacking a little in school and must cram and hand in late assignments.

 

And don't worry I'll make sure I am prepared. But that may mean taking back some of my points and our hashing out what is left of what I posted. Hehe.

 

-In Reason-

 

d-c

[Fweethawt]

I don't really think there is anything to add.

I do. But I'll drop it. In light of what this thread has turned into -- yeah, I'll drop it.

 

I don't like the direction it has taken to catergorize me as a killer and I think it shows that the thread has lost it's focus rather than being a tool to learn from each other.

I didn't mean for that post to make it look as though you were a killer. After rereading it, I can see how you came to such a conclusion. However, the main point that I was attempting to show came later within that post.

 

If you'd like to read it again, CLICK HERE.

 

To put it simply, I was pointing out the absurdity in one of the beliefs.

 

I know that you are not desiring to learn anything from me, but if you go back to the first post in this thread, I was asked questions. I answered them to the best of my ability.

If I'm not mistaken, I replied to every comment that you've made to me during this thread. You can not say the same. There were several points of mine that you didn't address.

 

But don't bother, like I said, I'm dropping it. You get used to it after a while, I guess.

 

Also, I am no better than anyone else and have never felt that I am. (Tifanny's comments) I struggle to get through life and make the same difficult desicions that anyone else does.

There is only one comment (that I recall) that was made in this thread that lead me to believe that you felt above everyone else. Of course, I understand that I could have misunderstood it.

 

All in all, I was hoping that the conversation would have eventually lead to the point that I would be able to show you that (in my opinion) you are a rarity that has for the most part evolved beyond your religion, and to help you realize that there is no reason at all for you to feel like a failure at any point especially using the biblical standard.

 

If you hand a hungry person a sandwich, you've done a greater work than feeding the multitudes with a few fish and a loaf of bread. Why? Because you really did hand that person a sandwich. The feeding of the multitudes never happend, and thus, should not be used as a standard that causes you to feel failure.

 

If you've guided a blind person to where they needed to go, you've done a greater work than mixing spit and mud together and rubbing it in his eyes to allow him to see. Why? Because you really did help a blind person. The mud and spit thing never happened, and thus, should not be used as a standard that causes you to feel failure.

 

If you've helped someone in need immediately upon finding out that they needed your help, you've done a greater work than waiting for that person to beg and plead for your help. The story of when Jesus waited for the lady to do that very same thing never happened, and thus, should not be used as a standard that causes you to feel failure.

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

The unrealistic (biblical) standards were created by people who never wanted you to come to the realization that your best is good enough.

 

You are beyond your religion in most ways,

and I think a lot of people here see that.

 

Thank you for the conversation.

Tap

Thank you.

[been borg again]

wow 450 replies and 5000+ hits.

I hope TAP doesnt feel ganged up on.

but I think this illustrates the ever present conficting issue on the Hell topic. It is a very personal topic I think for us heretics in that ( at least for me) it is so very depressing that our christian friends and family who would convince themselves we DESERVE Hell in order to keep the Hell doctrines rational and justified.

I for one become chronically depressed around my family

( who I know care and love me) because I know every single one of them think I am going to hell, and deserve it, and even they convince themselves I WANT to go to hell. All because of the "sin" of lack of belief

 

how totally ironic it is that I would go to hell, because I think GOd ( if there is one) is too loving to create a hell. a never ending source of depression when I am around my family

[pandora]

I agree with Merlin on this one.  Tiffany I understand you've been through some kindof hell with all this, and I don't know how recent your deconversion is...but everything with you is uber personal here.  And You seem a bit defensive.

 

Is there a part of you that still fears christianity is true?  If not, how can it consume you THIS much.  This isn't the normal snarkiness and eye-rolling of most on this board or the ocassional frustrated rant, this is real pain and I think there's stuff you need to deal with and accept if you are ever going to have peace.  THe entire world isn't going to change for you.  You are going to have to just accept that there are ignorant people and groups out there who feel you are less than what you are.  Just because a group of people thinks something doesn't make it true.  THere are legions of ignorant people out there of all sorts of religions.  Muslim fundamentalists in my book are big for their horrible sexism and devaluing of women.  But  the more time you spend letting it consume you like this, the more you are going to hurt in the long run.  THey are still hurting you because you are still letting them.

 

As for TAP, she isn't your enemy.  She might be conservative but she struggles with many aspects of her faith.  She's just trying to do the right thing.  I understand that her right thing seems not to mesh with YOUR right thing, but I've never seen TAP spout judgement and condemnation to anyone on this board.  If people truly have the right to follow their own path in peace, that means TAP too.,

 

There are plenty of psychofundies and others that you can launch yourself at like a big canon.  But I'm not sure that TAP is really one of them.  In fact, despite your disagreements with her theologically, the very existence and presence of people like TAP can help you to see the reality of the situation of what a lot of christians really are.

 

It truly is a form of stockholm syndrome...and TAP isn't a perpetuator of anything causing you harm.  She's just doing her best.  But you seem to wish her to change overnight to be like you in some way...when you just got through being upset because you think that's what she wants for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No part of me feels that Christianity could be true, but from experience that general attitude is dealing with the remnant fear and anxiety of deconversion.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

I think I ought to leave. No body gives a damn what I Post here!

[Alice]

  I think I ought to leave.  No body gives a damn what I Post here!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

ooh - that's weird - I was JUST thinking about one one of your posts - can't remember if it was in this thread or another one - and you mentioned spatial awareness

 

I was thinking ... I'd swap a bit of my gift of the gab for a little spatial understanding.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

Hesitent?

 

... That Post was June Saturday 4, @ 2:12 PM (PST) on Page 15 Post #292 ...

 

Totallyatpeace?

 

... I don't think you understood my Post that you replied to.  I had some different meanings about it.  I am refering to DNA is a biological making with thousands of Brain and Chemicals that give us certian stimuli for our interest in life.

 

... Some of us have things to see this world in its senses...

 

* Sight *

* Sound *

* Taste *

* Feelings *

* Smell *

* Passions or Power *

* Introvert aspects or Extroverted aspects *

* Thinking verses Feeling aspects *

* Sensing Practical aspects with someone trying to be Intuitive, Imagitive and Creative aspects that isn't all Practical *

* There is Chemical exchanges in our Brain that like flavors in life.  They are different in each of us. *

* What makes a male like a female and visa - versa. There is an inverse of this perception between people.  There is more or less of the Spacial Brain to the Language Brain. *

 

... I'm more of a Spacial Brain than a Language Brain.  People can see I struggle with language, but my Spacial Brain sees Aesthectics the greatest things in life.  But to satisfy me, is the Aesthetics, not the language.  But 98% of the world cares more about Language, then Spacial Needs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

[Alice]

Hesitent?

 

... That Post was June Saturday 4,  @ 2:12 PM (PST) on Page 15 Post #292 ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow - I'd never have found that again (I can get lost trying to find my own bathroom!) but I had been thinking about your words. I am fascinated by the way different people see life. For a great big part of my life I used to assume that everyone saw the same world when they looked at it. Realising just how diverse outlooks on life are has been part of my spiritual journey.

 

I contribute things to discussions that no one responds to sometimes - used to make me feel ignored, but sometimes it's just what we 'see' as being the crux of the matter is different from the majority. (I also have this problem that one thread sooo easily crosses over in my mind with another and feels connected that I can't remember who said what where - although I can remember the words - and as I'm trying to develop a habit of going away and thinking about what has been said before responding - I go away to think but then I can't then find again the post that prompted the thinking!)

 

(Calling myself 'Hesitent' is a bit of a private joke - because although I am cautious and shy in new social situations, in all other respects I haven't been Hesitent at all - I often used to lauch in with a comment before I'd really thought about it and have spent most of my life letting my tongue run away with me from time to time.)

 

Anyway - long post just to say - not responding to your post immediately with words didn't mean in this instance that no one was reading them or listening to them!

[Totallyatpeace]

Fwee~

 

I completely understand what you have been saying. I'm not sure why you feel I have ignored your comments/questions but if I have, I am very sorry. As you can imagine, I was a bit overwhelmed here. (especially time-wise)

 

To me, the Bible is literally true. To you it is a fictional story. How in the world could we see it the same way? One of us has to change our position before that can happen. However, I don't have to agree with you to say that I understand what you are talking about. I can understand it and reject it.

 

It could be that our little side discussion here deserved it's own thread and got lost in the midst of the other posts.

 

I always enjoy discussion with you.

 

Tap

 

P.S. If there truly is a place here where I said that I was better than anyone else......I would like to correct that.

[Mythra]

TAP - you are a rare ( a very rare) example of Christian grace in action. However, I do think that you would be a compassionate, understanding person with or without religion. That's just who you are.

 

I read Tiffany's comments pretty closely, and I do not think that they were directed at you. They were directed at a religion that has cut deeply into her soul. She's hurting. Don't take it personal.

 

I don't take any of your beliefs about hell personal. I understand that you don't take pleasure in believing that, but you feel that to disbelieve it would be the beginning of a big compromise. (sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.)

 

I think my point is, that none of this stuff should be taken so personally. We're just kicking around beliefs and ideas, and none of our thinking has the slightest effect on reality.

[Mythra]

I was one of the rebellious ones who said, nope, eternal suffering; weeping, gnashing of teeth, flesh falling off, torment etc. Can't be.

 

I selected the text "the wages of sin is death". Death isn't eternal screaming.

[Mythra]

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. Jonathan Edwards. Yep.

Also Charles Spurgeon. Fear, fear. If they won't love you, then scare em

into believing. Only problem is, when you really see what this god is, it's impossible to love him.

 

Never heard of the revelation of Peter, though. Hard to believe it could cause more fear than the current cannonized books.

 

You know, I think there are TONS of Christians who think like we do, but are afraid to speak up or even admit it to themselves. They spend their whole lives thinking secret thoughts and living a lie, in the hopes that all will be revealed and made clear in the next life.

[Totallyatpeace]

Madame M~

 

Jonathon Edwards, right?

[Ouroboros]

  I think I ought to leave.  No body gives a damn what I Post here!

No don't think that way. I felt like that too, but you have to know that a lot of posts gets read, but we don't always respond or trying to refute what said. That could actually mean we agree or just spend some time thinking on it.

 

There is a lot of "voices" on this site, and huge amounts of postings, so it can be hard to respond sometimes. Things can also get overlooked because of the sheer amount of readings.

 

So don’t feel ignored, more people read the postings than actually get involved.

 

I noticed that with some of the threads I started, there were probably 20 times more viewers than participants. Some people like to read and get input, and not necessarily give input.

 

Besides, sometimes when someone is posting a comment, they might be making the comment in an indirect response to your comment, but not making a direct reference or quote of what you said. The things you said can linger in the background of their head and be part of their argument.

[pandora]

Wow - I'd never have found that again (I can get lost trying to find my own bathroom!) but I had been thinking about your words. I am fascinated by the way different people see life. For a great big part of my life I used to assume that everyone saw the same world when they looked at it.  Realising just how diverse outlooks on life are has been part of my spiritual journey.

 

I contribute things to discussions that no one responds to sometimes - used to make me feel ignored, but sometimes it's just what we 'see' as being the crux of the matter is different from the majority. (I also have this problem that one thread sooo easily crosses over in my mind with another and feels connected that I can't remember who said what where - although I can remember the words - and as I'm trying to develop a habit of going away and thinking about what has been said before responding - I go away to think but then I can't then find again the post that prompted the thinking!)

 

(Calling myself 'Hesitent' is a bit of a private joke - because although I am cautious and shy in new social situations, in all other respects I haven't been Hesitent at all - I often used to lauch in with a comment before I'd really thought about it and have spent most of my life letting my tongue run away with me from time to time.)

 

Anyway - long post just to say - not responding to your post immediately with words didn't mean in this instance that no one was reading them or listening to them!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The thing you first mentioned is probably key to a large number of deconversions, and I admit it had a huge role to play in my own. I don't think I realized that when I was in the process.

 

Once someone learns that other humans operate in a totally different frame of reference, it is much more difficult to accept that God is only going to save those who happened to be born in a certain one (or are manipulated into it). Most Christians aren't educated on other religions, and if they are, they are only superficially aware of the faith system. (They believe this, they don't believe this. They think this is wrong, they don't think this is wrong. Their rituals are different. etc etc...) Once a Christian becomes aware of how a different faith affects its adherents, then their own world view breaks down.

 

It's kinda like the world-of-view change that occurs when someone previously untraveled goes overseas for the first time. Maybe the fact that I was a well traveled teenager had something to do wtih my ability to accept and understand other world views and validate them.

 

Now that I'm not a Christian, I still immensely enjoy discovering more about other faiths, particularly eastern ones. It enriches my life (and makes me sad that I won't ever have enough money to live everywhere at least once LOL). Also, maybe somewhere deep inside I still feel that if I learn about all perspectives well enough, I can create an integrated view for myself.