for TAP totallyatpeace

[Fweethawt]

Obviously, the red text is yours here. I got the names screwed up while I was breakin' your post down again.

 

 

 

You are correct. My argument wouldn't work if I assumed that you demand perfection.

 

The precise reason that my argument does work however, is due to the fact that the theology will always have you feeling like a failure because it lays out impossible goals. You will never live up to the standard, because the standard isn't possible.

 

Right there is part of the baggage.  Wendyshrug.gif

Give me one example.

Biblically speaking, I swear to you with every honest fiber in my body that if you live to be 5,000,000,000,000,000 years old, you will NEVER accomplish what was written in John 14:12.

 

That verse is a prime example of the biblical standard.

 

TAP, the comment was, that you were more like the Jesus that the preachers preach about rather than being like the biblical Jesus.

 

The reason I said that is, is because there is NO WAY that anyone can be like the biblical Jesus.

 

I never compared you to a preacher.  lmao_99.gif

 

Perhaps a small percentage of them fall into this. But for the most part, I wish that I could get paid for telling stories. I wish I could struggle like that.

 

I don't understand this.

 

And you've totally lost me. I'll read this again tomorrow.

Most preachers preach about the loving, helping, all-around-good guy-Jesus. I'll let you in on a little secret.... he ain't JUST like that in the bible.

 

Now, if you discard all of the nasty stuff that Jesus said or taught, and then get rid of all of the magical and mystical stuff that the bible teaches about him, what do you have left over, TAP?

 

Someone like you, perhaps?

 

Biblically speaking, no he isn't and, no you don't.

 

To me, this is sad. The way I see it is, you are putting a character from a book whom you've never seen and more than likely will never see, ahead of a person who you can see now, but there will come a time when you never will again.

 

It was said, tongue in cheek. Lighten up.

 

Was my comment out of line here?

 

The evil heart of religion shows through.  ugh.gif

 

To those that don't understand.

 

But I do understand, TAP. Once you dig through all of this stuff, you realize that at the very-very-very core of religion, is the devaluation of life and other people.

 

If you can't value someone without adhering to a religion, is that a fault of your own, or a direct result of the corruption from the religion itself?

 

 

This thread is some twenty pages long and I would have bowed out long ago if my name weren't on it. Not because I give up.........but because I have a life. Do you want to continue?

If you're going to bow out of the thread, then bow out of the thread. If you have other things to do, go do them.

 

If this comment was directed at me, I'll only participate as long as you will.

[LloydDobler]

He is the Creator. Not your peer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say I was his peer. The bible wants us all to emulate him.

 

Accept my love or you'll burn in hell. It's good love, I swear.

[Guest Tiffany]

TAP,

 

I know your well liked around here but I can't respect anyone who promotes bigotry and hate crimes.

 

I know you feel your hands are clean but by telling one group of people they are better then another group of people creates hate, anger, jealousy and violence. You help these emotions thrive by telling (or even believing) people that they are or are not going to hell because of something they were born with and cannot change ... BTW, I'm referring to the GLBT (Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgenderd) community.

 

People like you may not have been holding the shot gun that killed my best friend but her blood is on your hands!

[Fweethawt]

Does this mean that if I bring up Matthew 5:48 again that you're going to show me the error of my contextual ways?

Matthew 5:48

 

Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father...

Perfect is used in the context of mercy or love. As, is as in likeness..

 

Translates as: Be loving and merciful to others in the same likeness that your father is loving or merciful to you.

 

You're right. Your context was poor.

 

How did I know you were going to pull the context card on me?

 

Okay, I'll play along here.

 

In that particular context, the word "perfect" means to show mercy and love. In that particular context, you are commanded to be "perfect".

 

Simple enough...

 

Now, how do you obey this command while at the same time, obeying Luke 14:27 or something like that?

 

Which road to perfection is the correct one to take?

 

 

 

In one sense, you are told to be "perfect" by showing mercy and love, while in the next, you are commanded to hate by the same person who commanded you to be "perfect".

 

 

Now, don't forget, the whole time you're trying to figure that out, your mother (who ranks second in your life) just got a bit closer to her last breath.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I didn't say I was his peer.  The bible wants us all to emulate him. 

 

Accept my love or you'll burn in hell.  It's good love, I swear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For an infinite being god is very skimpy on the patience that and hell contradicts scriptures assertion that god IS love. Things don't add up.

[dogmatically_challenged]

TAP,

 

I know your well liked around here but I can't respect anyone who promotes bigotry and hate crimes.

 

I know you feel your hands are clean but by telling one group of people they are better then another group of people creates hate, anger, jealousy and violence. You help these emotions thrive by telling (or even believing) people that they are or are not going to hell because of something they were born with and cannot change ... BTW, I'm referring to the GLBT (Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgenderd) community.

 

People like you may not have been holding the shoot gun that killed my best friend but her blood is on your hands!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My roomate lost his cousin to suicide because of what scripture teaches people. His community and family treated him like dirt and before his suicide he was an addict and had fears of hell and very strong feelings of being alone, which he was.

[dogmatically_challenged]

People like you may not have been holding the shoot gun that killed my best friend but her blood is on your hands!

 

This may be to strong of words. This is very complicated to me. But I am not ready to debate it. I need to think on it. I don't know what to think.

[Guest Tiffany]

My roomate lost his cousin to suicide because of what scripture teaches people. His community and family treated him like dirt and before his suicide he was an addict and had fears of hell and very strong feelings of being alone, which he was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is very sad ... I bet the family feels he is in hell getting the torture he deserves, as if he didn't suffer enough at the hands of Christians.

[dogmatically_challenged]

That is very sad ... I bet the family feels he is in hell getting the torture he deserves, as if he didn't suffer enough at the hands of Christians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My roomate feels very guilty. He feels that he could have stuck up for his cousin more than he did. But I do not know how the rest of the family feels about it.

[Fweethawt]

People like you may not have been holding the shoot gun that killed my best friend but her blood is on your hands!

 

This may be to strong of words. This is very complicated to me. But I am not ready to debate it. I need to think on it. I don't know what to think.

 

I see where you're coming from here.

 

The teachings of a particular religion were a direct result of the death of one of your friends, and anyone who supports, embraces, and upholds that religion is responsible.

 

This isn't complicated at all.

 

 

Of course, the religion itself is also one-up on you here.

 

If YOU don't support that religion, YOU will burn in Hell.

 

So, you're kinda getting the double-whammy thing goin' on here.

 

.... and we're the bad guys...

[dogmatically_challenged]

Tap is what an antie or mother should be like it seems to me. I am to biased to think with words that are so strong as bloody hands. Also ignorance can kill. The more you know the more youre values change. Everything is conected but some people can't see the connection. This is hard to think about.

[Guest Tiffany]

I see where you're coming from here.

 

The teachings of a particular religion were a direct result of the death of one of your friends, and anyone who supports, embraces, and upholds that religion is responsible.

 

This isn't complicated at all. 

Of course, the religion itself is also one-up on you here. 

 

If YOU don't support that religion, YOU will burn in Hell.

 

So, you're kinda getting the double-whammy thing goin' on here.

 

.... and we're the bad guys... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bingo!

 

I was just gonna say, I stand by what I said and will be more then happy to debate it.

 

But, I don't think I'll have to after that.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Bingo!

 

I was just gonna say I stand by what I said and will be more then happy to debate it.

 

But, I don't think I'll have to after that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am not fit to debate it. I am not against you Tiff. If it can be debated I am unfit.

 

I can not be objective.

[Fweethawt]

I am not fit to debate it.

I am not against you Tiff.

If it can be debated I am unfit.

 

I can not be objective.

 

I can't debate worth a crap either.

 

I ususally just try to get my point across by asking questions.

 

I got this half-assed Socratic Method thing goin' on.

[nightflight]

Matthew 5:48

 

Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father...

Perfect is used in the context of mercy or love. As, is as in likeness..

 

Translates as: Be loving and merciful to others in the same likeness that your father is loving or merciful to you.

You're right. Your context was poor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are correct, TAP. However, the doctrine of hell blows the above out the water.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I can't debate worth a crap either. 

 

I ususally just try to get my point across by asking questions.

 

I got this half-assed Socratic Method thing goin' on. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He is a teacher worth emulating in my opinion. As far as your abilties, which aren't shabby at all...you are very good to me, "Perfect enough yet having desires for improvement is a perfection in itself."

[Guest Tiffany]

I am not against you Tiff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't worry, I didn't think you were against me. You don't tell straight people their better then my kind because God says so do you?

 

Of course you don't, that's how I know your not against me.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I missed you Tiff. You have been gone for a few days. Was looking for you at the poster above me thread.

[Guest Tiffany]

I missed you Tiff. You have been gone for a few days. Was looking for you at the poster above me thread. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How sweet!

 

I was feeling ... "artistic" so I was off for a few days while I healed up.

 

I missed you to, and I was wondering if you got a chance to talk to reach about that thing we talked about ... you know with the thing and the thing and the thing?

 

 

 

 

 

But to save the thread from being hijacked we should talk about it in PM.

[dogmatically_challenged]

How sweet!

 

I was feeling ... "artistic" so I was off for a few days while I healed up.

 

I missed you to, and I was wondering if you got a chance to talk to reach about that thing we talked about ... you know with the thing and the thing and the thing?

But to save the thread from being hijacked we should talk about it in PM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am content either way. No matter. See you at the poster above me thread.

[Vigile]

If their 'goal' that they set out for the believers could possibly be

reached, the theology wouldn't be needed. That is why the 'goal'

is impossible -- biblically speaking. They wanted it so that even the

best of people would still feel like a failure.

 

 

Man did you ever nail it!

 

I can't tell you how many hours I spent as a christian frustrated and empathizing with Paul. Christianity sets up an impossible standard and christians who are deep enough to take it to heart end up writhing in the exact same frustrating vicious circle Paul describes here:

 

Romans 7:

 

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

 

How exactly does Jesus make you free? You're dead to sin yet you struggle with sin. He suffered so you didn't have to yet he asks you to suffer for him. He's the prince of peace yet the peace I knew as a christian was aptly described by Paul in the verses cited above. This issue is exactly the reason you can't find your true self as a christian believer. These struggles are real and persistant to the point of being life long unless and until you are able to rationalize away the "sins" that caused you to feel these frustrations to begin with. That is, the "sin" isn't going anywhere, and either your rationale will change or you are doomed to a life of Paul's noted frustrations.

 

I was never able to rationize the "sin" so I never found true freedom and peace until I finally peeled away the layers of belief through education and sincere questioning and introspection.

[Alice]

I sometimes used to wonder if Paul spiralled into a bit of a depression after writing that - disappeared off for a few days - went on a complete bender - up to all kinds of mischief ...

 

I think the problem comes down to the way the Bible is interpreted by modern man. I don't see this big conspiracy as though it was 'written' as a tool to manipulate people. But it is 'used' as a tool to manipulate and control and it can only be used in this way because of the 'literal' interpretation bit - which is always going to be impossible - because every single person's understanding of a set of words will be slightly different.

 

But I think Paul's description of the mess he gets himself into tying himself up in knots trying to be good is a classic bit of writing.

[Fweethawt]

I can't tell you how many hours I spent as a christian frustrated and empathizing with Paul.  Christianity sets up an impossible standard and christians who are deep enough to take it to heart end up writhing in the exact same frustrating vicious circle Paul

 

If I were the Devil and I wanted people worshipping me,

Christianity would be my choice of religion.

 

Who else could design a book that teaches people to

want to be enslaved, and then turns around and convinces

them that the key to their freedom died, rose again,

ascended, and will return again someday, knowing full-well

that it'll never happen?

 

...and if you don't believe it, you're going to Hell?!?!?!

 

 

It's either a devil or.........

 

lying men.

[dogmatically_challenged]

....every single person's understanding of a set of words will be slightly different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is why an omni benevolent god would not use a book as a revelation.

 

Which would be better for understanding god and his expectations? books, or gods very presence? Adam and Abraham survided encounters with god.

 

I could not be satisfied with just a book and no god to talk to. Something smelled like B.S. to me.

 

If you are irritated and angry because god will not talk, and god supposedly loves you like the pastor says, then you at least want to find answers of why you are being ignored by god. I am stuborn. Thats what lead me to not talking back when I was told to read the bible. I read the whole thing many times. Some things even a child can see in that book that don't add up. I will never forget the first time I whent through the O.T. I thought of alternatives that god could have done differently for happy endings where everyone wins. God Is love. B.S.

[Alice]

This is why an omni benevolent god would not use a book as a revelation.

 

Which would be better for understanding god and his expectations? books, or gods very presence? Adam and Abraham survided encounters with god.

 

I could not be satisfied with just a book and no god to talk to. Something smelled like B.S. to me.

 

If you are irritated and angry because god will not talk, and god supposedly loves you like the pastor says, then you at least want to find answers of why you are being ignored by god. I am stuborn. Thats what lead me to not talking back when I was told to read the bible. I read the whole thing many times. Some things even a child can see in that book that don't add up. I will never forget the first time I whent through the O.T. I thought of alternatives that god could have done differently for happy endings where everyone wins. God Is love. B.S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. I think the whole 'the word of God are these little sqiggles contained on the pieces of paper in this book' thing is the problem with today's christianity - this plus the fact that somehow what people believe those squiggles to mean is determined by the people who have the most power at the time.

 

I used to read those OT and NT stories and think 'yes - but if God had done this - or if God had done that life would have been so much better'. I think that was a useful and 'spiritual' experience. I see these stories as discussion pointers - as early equivalents to 'topical' films or novels - where all that is intended by the writers is that we examine, debate and consider the idea's presented.

 

I occasionally used to use stories that presented outcomes I considered to be TERRIBLE to get a discussion going in the church youth group I led for a while. It was scary at first the number of people who would just sort of agree with the premise, others would find the premise disconcerting but would sort of go along with it because they couldn't think of an alternative others still got all angry and animated and argued against what was written.

 

It was encouraging them to approach tales in the OT in the same way that got me sacked.