for TAP totallyatpeace

[Caretaker]

Yeah, I think we should all just let it be TAP's choice. What a person believes doesn't threaten me. It is how that person acts on those beliefs.

[Fweethawt]

Zoe is right and you know it, Fwee!

 

What kinda hit-woman for the mob am I gonna look like if you keep saying stuff like this?!

 

 

Fwee would like to very much get back wit'chew on dis Lady Pitchu, but he's kinda bizzy right nows wit Frank'n Bugsy gettin'is feet covered in concrete just like yous told us to.

 

- Vinny

[Guest JP1283]

MEOW!  you HAVE to be bi. lol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nah, I just like to beat people.

[pitchu]

Let me ask you something. Would it really please you to see me walk away from my faith?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You must know that my answer would be, "Of course!" Because I don't see how Christianity can be an authentic part of an authentic person. And I'd rather see everybody as their authentic selves.

 

As for the contacts you've made here and all the things you've learned -- that's wonderful. And it has surely made you a richer person. But you can be philosophically rich as Croesus and still cling to a mindset you refuse to examine and challenge out of fear that you have no idea who you'd be without a label you've always worn... who you are underneath the pretty pieties that have been slathered over you... who beats inside you -- vivid and independent and in sole ownership of your own life.

 

So all these other ventures into the lives and learnings of others may enhance your knowledge but never reach the core of you. Because that core is undiscoverable -- to discover it would be an affront to Jesus and God.

 

Yes. I would love to see you walk away from that which keeps you from you.

[pitchu]

Fwee would like to very much get back wit'chew on dis Lady Pitchu, but he's kinda bizzy right nows wit Frank'n Bugsy gettin'is feet covered in concrete just like yous told us to.

 

- Vinny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeh, awrright. But not dat same spot in da Hudson! Chrys' aw'mighty, youse prac'ly made a lan'fill outta corpses over dere.

[pitchu]

see? what did I say?  SCARY hehehe 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good dose o' Pitchophobia might jus' be da bes' t'ing fer yer healt', Kid.

 

(An' fer my healt' -- beddie-bye time.)

[Fweethawt]

(An' fer my healt' -- beddie-bye time.)

 

G'noit Pitchoo!

 

-Vinny

[Fweethawt]

is vinny really your name? lol or is it just your "gangsta" name?

 

Dis is quite simple ya see?

 

I could tell yous, but I hafta kills ya.

 

Don't ask.

 

-Vinny

[Outsider2]

TAP,

 

I don't believe I'm attacking you.  At least I certainly hope not.  What I hope is that I'm naming the difference between glib reiteration of learned Christian tenets and sincere self-investigation as to how those tenets rest within accumulated knowledge of life and also within the conscience.

 

Your screen name seems to suggest that you've reached the resolution of conflict within yourself.  But I find that hard to believe.  If it were true, I see no reason for you to be here among us, reading again and again non-and-anti-Christian words that you've already acknowledged are difficult (maybe hurtful?) for you, yet being warm and friendly to those who write the words. If you were trying to convert us, I could understand, but expressly, you're not.  If you want truly to understand us, something in you knows that that would inevitably lead to a different understanding of yourself.  So you skirt the arena; play in the safety zone. 

 

What I believe, instead, is that there is deep conflict going on in you which you are continually turning over to your God to resolve.  I think your shying away from what you label "conflict" with others is a cover for your not wanting to unmask your own inner conflict.

 

I'm not your analyst.  But you are.  And you know whether or not there's any truth here.  If there is truth, I hope you'll own up and come to a new level of interaction with us here.

 

Because, really, TAP, who cares if infidels think you're nice?

 

This is all merely my opinion.  Discard it if it doesn't suit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Pitchu, you saved me a lot of work typing the same opinion. This topic is not an easy one to talk about without stepping on each others toes. I think you put it in a fair and honest way. Unfortunately I think that no matter how we approach this topic it is going to hit at a personal level.

[Vigile]

are all writing in hell. (actually I meant to say WRITHING in hell, but I'll probably be writing...

 

 

Zoe,

 

I will bestow upon you the same comments you made to Bruce. If you are not a writer already, you really should be.

[Vigile]

Ok, well how about for your own sanity?  I couldn't stand to spend time with people I thought were going to hell when I was Xtian, it made me too sad.  It isn't that I didn't hang out with them, its just that I was an obnoxious evangelizer with my closest friends that weren't christian because I felt so much for them.  It in turn made me insane.

 

 

Really? I think most of my friends were non christian when I was a believer. They all respected my beliefs and we got along well. Christians on the other hand weren't as fun to hang out with. I hated all the endless doctrinal debates and besides, Jesus spent time with the sinners so why shouldn't/couldn't I?

 

This was just my own experience, but I've always been a bit of a rebel.

[Vigile]

I think the guys have a crush on her avatar, and wish to treat her well because of this. LOL

 

 

 

Ya got that right. Ya sho, got that right!

[pandora]

Really?  I think most of my friends were non christian when I was a believer.  They all respected my beliefs and we got along well.  Christians on the other hand weren't as fun to hang out with.  I hated all the endless doctrinal debates and besides, Jesus spent time with the sinners so why shouldn't/couldn't I?

 

This was just my own experience, but I've always been a bit of a rebel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, that's the thing... I was a rebel too and couldn't stop myself from hanging out with them. That made me care more about them. And way too sad to stay sane because I thought they were going to hell.

[Vigile]

Well, that's the thing... I was a rebel too and couldn't stop myself from hanging out with them.  That made me care more about them.  And way too sad to stay sane because I thought they were going to hell.

 

 

I was always making an ass of myself hounding them to get saved. I tried to do it with tact, but I think they all pretty much put up with it by laughing it off as just one of my strange character quirks.

[Totallyatpeace]

You must know that my answer would be, "Of course!"  Because I don't see how Christianity can be an authentic part of an authentic person.  And I'd rather see everybody as their authentic selves.

 

How in the world can you go through life with that frame of mind? Do you really think I have no clue who I am? I am living my life exactly how I want to live it and nothing is holding me from making serious changes if they need to be made. My life is fulfilling in so many ways and the majority of that is due to the decisions and choices I have made along the way. It actually disturbs me that you think that if someone doesn't believe the way you do, they are not authentic.

 

You've also made an assumption here that I have never questioned my beliefs at any point in my life or that my mind is closed. I really didn't want to go into this but I can tell you that at one point in my life, I did walk away from my faith and it lasted about two years--and it wasn't that long ago.

 

As for the contacts you've made here and all the things you've learned -- that's wonderful.  And it has surely made you a richer person.  But you can be philosophically rich as Croesus and still cling to a mindset you refuse to examine and challenge out of fear that you have no idea who you'd be without a label you've always worn..

 

There you go assuming again...

 

... who you are underneath the pretty pieties that have been slathered over you... who beats inside you -- vivid and independent and in sole ownership of your own life.

 

Who owns me, Pitchu? I am a very independent woman who makes many decisions on her own. Sometimes I share the making of those decisions with another person but the majority of what I do is my choice. I travel, I have adventure, a good career, a solid home life, a good church family, etc.....

 

So all these other ventures into the lives and learnings of others may enhance your knowledge but never reach the core of you.  Because that core is undiscoverable -- to discover it would be an affront to Jesus and God.

 

That's a lie to make yourself feel better. I also believe it is shallow thinking.

 

Yes.  I would love to see you walk away from that which keeps you from you.

 

That's really sad, if you ask me. I enjoy life so much that if I believed in reincarnation, I wouldn't  mind coming back and doing it over again.....exactly the same way.

 

Like I said......life is rich.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Merlinfmct87]

G'noit Pitchoo!

 

-Vinny 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why?

 

Why are they always named Vinny?

 

Merlin

[Amethyst]

That was well put. I very much felt like Christianity kept me from being my authentic self.

 

Agreed. Since I was a teenager, I had always felt a conflict in that most Christians I knew were against people of other religions, they were against homosexuals even though the first study that showed homosexuality was genetic in 1993, when I was a junior in HS. But the Christians I knew refused to accept its validity; the rumor was that a gay person had been in control of the study, so it was inherently biased. At least, that was what the church wanted everyone to believe. But that was just a rumor.

 

Many Christians I knew (in the Missouri Synod church) also seemed to be closet racists. It was clear from remarks that they made, even jokingly, about people of other nationalities.

 

I could not in good conscience continue to be part of a group that encouraged such things, so when I was in college, I quit going to church. I could not have done so when my mom was alive, as religious as she was, and dying of cancer to boot. I think that would've been a slap in her face, and I would not have done that while I was still legally a minor and she was sick.

 

I tried liberal Christianity, but still there was the quandary of what happens to people of other religions, and by then I had realized the Bible was metaphorical in nature, so I realized that I couldn't keep going to church if I no longer believed that Jesus had literally existed.

 

I'm much more "me" now that I resolved my inner conflicts, and I can believe and think what I want to without fear of going to hell.

[Alice]

TAP,

 

I don't know if this thread has already stretched as far as you want it to - but I wanted to ask you something else about your belief in hell if that's OK?

 

Is your belief in hell based solely on what you've read in the Bible and your understanding of these verses - or is it something you've prayed about and felt has been confirmed for you in conversation with God - as part of the relationship you have?

[Totallyatpeace]

TAP,

 

I don't know if this thread has already stretched as far as you want it to - but I wanted to ask you something else about your belief in hell if that's OK?

 

Is your belief in hell based solely on what you've read in the Bible and your understanding of these verses - or is it something you've prayed about and felt has been confirmed for you in conversation with God - as part of the relationship you have?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Straight from the Bible, Hesitant. I pray a lot but I don't need to ask him through prayer if something is true when He has already confirmed it through his Word.

 

I have prayed frequently about other things that I don't understand......such as the whole speaking in tongues thing.

[Alice]

Straight from the Bible, Hesitant. I pray a lot but I don't need to ask him through prayer if something is true when He has already confirmed it through his Word.

 

I have prayed frequently about other things that I don't understand......such as the whole speaking in tongues thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You not ever done a 'but why?' or a 'I don't like it' or a 'I wish you didn't think it was necessary' or 'I wish you'd make an exception for this person or that person'?

[Totallyatpeace]

You not ever done a 'but why?' or a 'I don't like it' or a 'I wish you didn't think it was necessary' or 'I wish you'd make an exception for this person or that person'?

 

 

Every single day, Hesitent.

[Alice]

Every single day, Hesitent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess what I'm asking - is what do you get back? By way of an answer.

[Totallyatpeace]

Yes, that is why when someone deconverts, their christian friends will many times either outright reject them or just drift away.  They don't want to know any logical arguments against the faith because satan might steal away their salvation. 

 

My opinion is that there are two reasons a Christian comes to Ex-C.  They either want to duke it out with the heretics OR they are questioning their faith.  TAP somewhat alluded to the later in a response to me in another thread on the debate forum.  When I first started deconverting, she skeptic arguments were like forbidden fruit.  I was scared to death to read them, and I would often reiterate my faith... but on the other hand, I found the knowledge irresistable and exciting.  I had never heard these things before, I had never thought of this or that in that light.  I also found "freethinkers" more accepting than Christians.  With Christians you always have to watch what you say, hold back, edit your thoughts.  Freethinkers let me think and talk about all kinds of stuff I had to keep in a box with my christian friends.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do believe the inability to be transparent is one of the biggest problems in the Christian Church today. Going about your church business pretending you have it all together because God is in control has left the church wounded and unable to share their concern and their pain with their own church body--- for fear of being seen as weak.

 

Madame M, I have questioned many aspects of my faith while I have been a member of Ex-C. There are one or two people here that I'm comfortable enough PMing my questions to so I can understand their perspective. I would name them but I'm not sure they'd approve of that.

 

With Christians you always have to watch what you say, hold back, edit your thoughts.

 

As a Christian, I would agree with that. However, it shouldn't be that way. I have a core group of friends that I often get together with for dinner and wine and we sit and talk for hours. It's never about how the rest of the world is screwed up and we have it all together. It's always about serious life issues and how we deal with them. I am a fairly transparent person and will say it like it is, for the most part.

 

The two years that I walked away from my faith were painful for me. Last year, I stood before 750 people in my congregation and shared my story with them. I was honest about what I had been through and I could see the looks on their faces in response. They were stunned first of all at what I was sharing and secondly, that I could possibly have "fallen away". That began a journey for me of helping other Believers to cut the act and let their struggles show. Most people were supportive......some have not spoken to me since.

[Totallyatpeace]

I guess what I'm asking - is what do you get back? By way of an answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I still trust, Hesitent. Until I have a genuine reason not to.....I trust Him.

[Matthew]

Agreed.  Since I was a teenager, I had always felt a conflict in that most Christians I knew were against people of other religions, they were against homosexuals even though the first study that showed homosexuality was genetic in 1993, when I was a junior in HS.  But the Christians I knew refused to accept its validity; the rumor was that a gay person had been in control of the study, so it was inherently biased.  At least, that was what the church wanted everyone to believe.  But that was just a rumor. 

 

Many Christians I knew (in the Missouri Synod church) also seemed to be closet racists.  It was clear from remarks that they made, even jokingly, about people of other nationalities. 

 

I could not in good conscience continue to be part of a group that encouraged such things, so when I was in college, I quit going to church.  I could not have done so when my mom was alive, as religious as she was, and dying of cancer to boot.  I think that would've been a slap in her face, and I would not have done that while I was still legally a minor and she was sick.

 

I tried liberal Christianity, but still there was the quandary of what happens to people of other religions, and by then I had realized the Bible was metaphorical in nature, so I realized that I couldn't keep going to church if I no longer believed that Jesus had literally existed.

 

 

I'm much more "me" now that I resolved my inner conflicts, and I can believe and think what I want to without fear of going to hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How did these Christians feel towards Communism?

 

Matthew