Ouroboros Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 How can anyone in the 21st century honestly believe that??? Science disproved it a long, long time ago!!! How old is Earth? IIRC, 4 Billion years or so? Well, that's pretty young don't you think? If you compare to an eternity, that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 How old is Earth? IIRC, 4 Billion years or so? Well, that's pretty young don't you think? If you compare to an eternity, that is... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Universe is 15 billion years old. Earth is 4.5. Yeah, that's pretty young... Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 How old is Earth? IIRC, 4 Billion years or so? Well, that's pretty young don't you think? Yeah, but not compared to only 6,000 years or whatever it is the fundies have been brainwashed to believe. I can't remember now, I did my best to rid my mind of all the brainwashing I received as a child, and it seems to have worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Yeah, but not compared to only 6,000 years or whatever it is the fundies have been brainwashed to believe. I can't remember now, I did my best to rid my mind of all the brainwashing I received as a child, and it seems to have worked. But, but, 6000, that's only a baby! That’s just a fetus! Are they trying to put the abortion thoughts into the creation too? What about if God destroys the world in a couple of years, doesn’t it mean he will kill the baby earth, and is an abortionist! (just kidding) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 But, but, 6000, that's only a baby! That’s just a fetus! Are they trying to put the abortion thoughts into the creation too? What about if God destroys the world in a couple of years, doesn’t it mean he will kill the baby earth, and is an abortionist! (just kidding) Heck the world was still a seething ball of fire at 6000. What kind of life would end up thriving in that? *Glances at own avatar* Oh. Of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Heck the world was still a seething ball of fire at 6000. What kind of life would end up thriving in that? *Glances at own avatar* Oh. Of course. Yes, your avatar is *hot*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Well, in two sittings I've managed to read all 9 pages, and though I have many thoughts, only one keeps recurring. That thought is that when Reach had, as she said, been here only a month, she was subjected to grilling without the amelioration of repeated reassurances of her goodness and kindness. I don't recall that during that time Reach hinted at being unwanted or sent away. I do recall that to the best of her ability, Reach gave involved and self-searching answers to our questions; she was not pat; she was not content with tossed-off homilies. She was anything but a hot house flower to whom the rest of us gave careful attentions and special considerations. Now I know comparisons are odious, and I'm also aware that TAP is younger than Reach, and that we're generally more cautious with our young ones here. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't know that TAP is truly benefitting by getting the "kid gloves" treatment on her beliefs which are so deeply troublesome to most of us here. If she's here to learn, let's teach her. Let's not insult her intellect by giving her a free pass. Let's require that she dig a little into her psyche and thought systems. Let's not let it slide when she answers a question with the equivalent of "I do because I do." She's not twelve! Let's not let her off the hook because she doesn't care for conflict and debate. Honest inventorying and examination of one's beliefs isn't the same as engaging in conflict and debate. If she's not here to learn from us, then we should probably try to learn from her what it is that some Christians find so damnably irresistible and magnetic about hanging with us hell-bound infidels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 It already bothers me enough that some of my responses have been me talking "about you" as if you weren't here... I assure you, I'm here. For now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 If she's not here to learn from us, then we should probably try to learn from her what it is that some Christians find so damnably irresistible and magnetic about hanging with us hell-bound infidels. If I had to answer this, I'd say the reason that some Christians find this place irresistible and magnetic is due to the unique oneness within so many individuals with so many varying opinions when it comes to just about everything. Also, in light of all of this, we still manage to get along well with each other. Similar to a religion, there is an exclusive bond among our members here. The main difference is, a drone-type mentality isn't the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Well, in two sittings I've managed to read all 9 pages, and though I have many thoughts, only one keeps recurring. That thought is that when Reach had, as she said, been here only a month, she was subjected to grilling without the amelioration of repeated reassurances of her goodness and kindness. I don't recall that during that time Reach hinted at being unwanted or sent away. I do recall that to the best of her ability, Reach gave involved and self-searching answers to our questions; she was not pat; she was not content with tossed-off homilies. She was anything but a hot house flower to whom the rest of us gave careful attentions and special considerations. Now I know comparisons are odious, and I'm also aware that TAP is younger than Reach, and that we're generally more cautious with our young ones here. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't know that TAP is truly benefitting by getting the "kid gloves" treatment on her beliefs which are so deeply troublesome to most of us here. If she's here to learn, let's teach her. Let's not insult her intellect by giving her a free pass. Let's require that she dig a little into her psyche and thought systems. Let's not let it slide when she answers a question with the equivalent of "I do because I do." She's not twelve! Let's not let her off the hook because she doesn't care for conflict and debate. Honest inventorying and examination of one's beliefs isn't the same as engaging in conflict and debate. If she's not here to learn from us, then we should probably try to learn from her what it is that some Christians find so damnably irresistible and magnetic about hanging with us hell-bound infidels. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> TAP is not here to lose her faith, pitchu. She is here to learn our perspective... she isn't here to convert anybody, she is here to understand our point of view on a person-to-person basis. She doesn't want a debate, she doesn't want an argument. She wants to listen and understand. I see no reason to attack or condemn that. Hell, I applaud it. If more believers saw the world as she does there would be a lot less bloodshed in the world. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NimbusBirdMgp Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 NimbusBirdMgp~ Why do you still pray for God to bring a beautiful woman into your life if you don't believe in God? Tap <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ... I'm 50 years old now. Since age 14 when I first ask this in Prayer. And I have yet really not given up on the request. That's 36 years of Praying so to speak. Or at least still trying to shove it up in the air with any possibilities on it since not believing in 'God' any more. ... I tried to make the difference from Prayer to Request. Or in this sense a Quest I will pursue without a belief in a God. And in Blue I refered to this as ... "so to speak." In Purple, I said ... "Or at least still trying to shove this Quest up in the air as to letting other people know what I want from where I meet." Not to the Christian God anymore. I still am open to the idea there might be a different kind of God like Deity about us, so I try to think of such as what is likely with the reason of people that I would like to know what I still want. ... It's not the same. I should had said that the Prayer's to the Christian God was from my age 14 (1969) to age 26 (1981). 12 Years on that. Then I only did it at times sarcastically, but with other possiblities in my frame of mind. Not just to be Christian in the matter. But as to what is going on over all. I just want something to work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slayer-2004 Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 oh boy , another hell discusion , my expertise ! w00t ! How I do personally reconcile the "love of God, send 'em to hell doctrine"? It's actually very simple to me. We were created with free will and he offers every single person the same choice; an eternity with Him or an eternity without Him. I've made the choice to believe the word of God and accept Christ as Lord and it comes with the promise of eternity with Him. The Bible also teaches that if you reject Christ as Lord that you are hell-bound. This is what Christianity teaches, with the exception of those that have thrown away the hell doctrine to appease those that are uncomfortable hearing it. The easiest way to understand why hell and heaven is a system that is immoral is to look at how your god made us . He made our ability to understand the powers above almost nill , and thus we are required to have faith for practically everything . You need faith to believe in religion no matter what religion you are in . We will never actually "know" what happens after we die untill we die . Sure , we can have extremely strong faith in our beliefs on what happens but in reality nobody really knows - keep in mind that god supposedly made us this way . Christians like to look at the conversion to christianity as if its easy . "Just believe in our god and you will go to heaven" Problem is tons of religions give out this call and since we are born with no beliefs but high impressionability we tend to go for whatever religion we are raised in . In other words having free will doesnt suddenly make the problems with sending the infidels to burn forever go away . If anything it makes it worse . God has forced us to choose between things when we have no way to know anything without faith first . saying that free will solves the problem of hell is like saying its moral to murder someone because they didnt pick door number 72 in a game of chance where there are 654251612957546 doors to choose from . If faith wasnt required anywhere in your religion then I would admit that the "free will" counter-argument to the heaven/hell paradox is a valid answer . Unfortunatly you yourself have admitted that it is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 TAP is not here to lose her faith, pitchu. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Neither was Reach, Merlin. But we are here as Ex-C's to support other Ex-C's; not to support, by tacit hands-off policy, the comfortable continuation of the belief system that sent us all here, no matter that it appears in a person we find likeable and agreeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 How I do personally reconcile the "love of God, send 'em to hell doctrine"? It's actually very simple to me. We were created with free will and he offers every single person the same choice; an eternity with Him or an eternity without Him. This raises some tough questions. What about those born before Jesus? What about people now who have never heard? What about those who were brought up in other religions? This is what Christianity teaches, with the exception of those that have thrown away the hell doctrine to appease those that are uncomfortable hearing it. Uh, no....those that are disgusted by it. And it is disgusting, and it has caused much pain for millions throughout the centuries. And christians have the nerve, the nerve, to call their religion "good news". Think of all the children who are terrorized by the teachings of hellfire and brimstone. Think of the millions who's lives were characterized by fear. Is the christian message really good news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 But we are here as Ex-C's to support other Ex-C's; not to support, by tacit hands-off policy, the comfortable continuation of the belief system that sent us all here, no matter that it appears in a person we find likeable and agreeable. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 If she's not here to learn from us, then we should probably try to learn from her what it is that some Christians find so damnably irresistible and magnetic about hanging with us hell-bound infidels. She admitted that fear plays a part in her faith. Maybe she is drawn to the freedom she sees in some of us here. (I say some, because some of us are still in bondage because of the "glad tidings".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 TAP, I don't believe I'm attacking you. At least I certainly hope not. What I hope is that I'm naming the difference between glib reiteration of learned Christian tenets and sincere self-investigation as to how those tenets rest within accumulated knowledge of life and also within the conscience. Your screen name seems to suggest that you've reached the resolution of conflict within yourself. But I find that hard to believe. If it were true, I see no reason for you to be here among us, reading again and again non-and-anti-Christian words that you've already acknowledged are difficult (maybe hurtful?) for you, yet being warm and friendly to those who write the words. If you were trying to convert us, I could understand, but expressly, you're not. If you want truly to understand us, something in you knows that that would inevitably lead to a different understanding of yourself. So you skirt the arena; play in the safety zone. What I believe, instead, is that there is deep conflict going on in you which you are continually turning over to your God to resolve. I think your shying away from what you label "conflict" with others is a cover for your not wanting to unmask your own inner conflict. I'm not your analyst. But you are. And you know whether or not there's any truth here. If there is truth, I hope you'll own up and come to a new level of interaction with us here. Because, really, TAP, who cares if infidels think you're nice? This is all merely my opinion. Discard it if it doesn't suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Hhhmmm......I need to think on this. Okay. I'm done thinking. I have many, many non-christian friends and when I sit and talk and spend time together with them, I am enjoying their company because of who they are. Their character, their personality, their vitality, their perspective on many things.... You honestly can't have a conversation with me without thinking about my faith? Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims-- among others, believe I am going to hell. I have never once considered that I can't be friends with them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok, well how about for your own sanity? I couldn't stand to spend time with people I thought were going to hell when I was Xtian, it made me too sad. It isn't that I didn't hang out with them, its just that I was an obnoxious evangelizer with my closest friends that weren't christian because I felt so much for them. It in turn made me insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 NimbusBirdMgp~ Why do you still pray for God to bring a beautiful woman into your life if you don't believe in God? Tap <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL Yes, I have thought the same. Isnt' that throwing out the golden fleece? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Well, in two sittings I've managed to read all 9 pages, and though I have many thoughts, only one keeps recurring. That thought is that when Reach had, as she said, been here only a month, she was subjected to grilling without the amelioration of repeated reassurances of her goodness and kindness. I don't recall that during that time Reach hinted at being unwanted or sent away. I do recall that to the best of her ability, Reach gave involved and self-searching answers to our questions; she was not pat; she was not content with tossed-off homilies. She was anything but a hot house flower to whom the rest of us gave careful attentions and special considerations. Now I know comparisons are odious, and I'm also aware that TAP is younger than Reach, and that we're generally more cautious with our young ones here. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't know that TAP is truly benefitting by getting the "kid gloves" treatment on her beliefs which are so deeply troublesome to most of us here. If she's here to learn, let's teach her. Let's not insult her intellect by giving her a free pass. Let's require that she dig a little into her psyche and thought systems. Let's not let it slide when she answers a question with the equivalent of "I do because I do." She's not twelve! Let's not let her off the hook because she doesn't care for conflict and debate. Honest inventorying and examination of one's beliefs isn't the same as engaging in conflict and debate. If she's not here to learn from us, then we should probably try to learn from her what it is that some Christians find so damnably irresistible and magnetic about hanging with us hell-bound infidels. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think the guys have a crush on her avatar, and wish to treat her well because of this. LOL I am with you... she isnt a kid, she can handle it! It is just the friggin internet, peeps... not that I don't love ya all, but really.... I have a real life. Sort of. One where I stay at home a lot because I don't have a job this summer session, but still... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 If I had to answer this, I'd say the reason that some Christians find this place irresistible and magnetic is due to the unique oneness within so many individuals with so many varying opinions when it comes to just about everything. Also, in light of all of this, we still manage to get along well with each other. Similar to a religion, there is an exclusive bond among our members here. The main difference is, a drone-type mentality isn't the norm. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> it's kind of a mutual masturbation shrine here... we rarely debate amongst ourselves, and when we do, if we disagree, we say our piece then let it go. We are here primarily to vent to eachother and learn new things about freethinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 TAP, I don't believe I'm attacking you. At least I certainly hope not. What I hope is that I'm naming the difference between glib reiteration of learned Christian tenets and sincere self-investigation as to how those tenets rest within accumulated knowledge of life and also within the conscience. Your screen name seems to suggest that you've reached the resolution of conflict within yourself. But I find that hard to believe. If it were true, I see no reason for you to be here among us, reading again and again non-and-anti-Christian words that you've already acknowledged are difficult (maybe hurtful?) for you, yet being warm and friendly to those who write the words. If you were trying to convert us, I could understand, but expressly, you're not. If you want truly to understand us, something in you knows that that would inevitably lead to a different understanding of yourself. So you skirt the arena; play in the safety zone. What I believe, instead, is that there is deep conflict going on in you which you are continually turning over to your God to resolve. I think your shying away from what you label "conflict" with others is a cover for your not wanting to unmask your own inner conflict. I'm not your analyst. But you are. And you know whether or not there's any truth here. If there is truth, I hope you'll own up and come to a new level of interaction with us here. Because, really, TAP, who cares if infidels think you're nice? This is all merely my opinion. Discard it if it doesn't suit. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yup. I don't know TAP well enough to speculate, but I do know from experience that the best kept secret from Christian to Christian is that they fear education will take their faith away. The other secret, related, is that the educated are in deep conflict about the contradictions of the real world and the Bible. Christians are very very good at making sure everyone else thinks that their faith is very secure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MalaInSe Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Neither was Reach, Merlin. But we are here as Ex-C's to support other Ex-C's; not to support, by tacit hands-off policy, the comfortable continuation of the belief system that sent us all here, no matter that it appears in a person we find likeable and agreeable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Yup. I don't know TAP well enough to speculate, but I do know from experience that the best kept secret from Christian to Christian is that they fear education will take their faith away. The other secret, related, is that the educated are in deep conflict about the contradictions of the real world and the Bible. Christians are very very good at making sure everyone else thinks that their faith is very secure. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yup to you, too, Pandora. And maybe I don't know TAP well enough to do this speculating, either. I just know, and maybe extrapolate from, my own crazed/peaceful reaching/withdrawing Charismatic Christian daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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