for TAP totallyatpeace

[pitchu]

I think Pitchu would make an awesome mom.  We have a family friend, has been friends with my dad since they were in diapers, who reminds me alot of Pitchu.  She is not a believer, but even when I was a believing teen, she was just the most wonderful person to hang around with.  I used to wish she was my mom.  I think my life would have turned out alot better if she had been.

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MM,

 

Thanks for that.

 

My shortcomings as a parent, however, are legion.

[Amethyst]

How did these Christians feel towards Communism?

Oh, I'm sure they were all for American democracy. Of course, their version of democracy was only voting for the Christian extremist candidates, because if you voted for anyone else, you were going straight to hell.

[pitchu]

TAP,

 

Think what you will of my shallowness, and that my outlooks are sad, and make whatever you like of my comments. That's part of the give-and-take of meaningful interaction.

 

But before you suggest I've lied or made unwarranted assumptions, please look around my posts for words like: may, can, maybe, seems, perhaps, probably, etc. Note also phrases like, "my opinion" and "in my experience" and "as I understand it," etc.

 

My record isn't perfect on this, but I do pay assiduous attention to presenting my thoughts as my thoughts -- not as absolute pronouncements and judgments (quite enough of that in the Bible, for my taste ).

[Totallyatpeace]

TAP,

 

Think what you will of my shallowness, and that my outlooks are sad, and make whatever you like of my comments.  That's part of the give-and-take of meaningful interaction.

 

But before you suggest I've lied or made unwarranted assumptions, please look around my posts for words like: may, can, maybe, seems, perhaps, probably, etc.  Note also phrases like, "my opinion" and "in my experience" and "as I understand it," etc. 

 

My record isn't perfect on this, but I do pay assiduous attention to presenting my thoughts as my thoughts -- not as absolute pronouncements and judgments (quite enough of that in the Bible, for my taste ).

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My apologies, Pitchu. I will pay closer attention.

 

It could be that when I add all of the replies together I get a sense that everyone is telling me what my outlook on religion and life is. I have a pretty good sense of who I am and what I believe.

 

Nothing can hold me down if I want to get up.

[Mythra]

Hi Tap - I have to say that I have enourmous respect for you to be in this forum. I would never have had the courage or - faith? to be able to spend time here when I was a Christian.

 

I just have a quick question for you. I assume you spend quite a bit of time reading the Bible. Do you ever get to a passage that represents God in a way that is in complete conflict with your view of Him? And, if so, how do you resolve the issue?

[Totallyatpeace]

Do you ever get to a passage that represents God in a way that is in complete conflict with your view of Him?

 

Often.......especially parts of the old testament. I would be lying to say that I don't have a real problem with the doctrine of hell.

 

I try and look at the Bible in it's entirety, in context and read the whole scene around a passage. Who's speaking.....what happened right before? What is the outcome and what is the resulting message? It's hard to do.

 

For example there is another thread here talking about the sons of God vs the Son of God. They are totally different things. To most it looks like contradiction but it's not. One is referring to angels (if I'm remembering the passage correctly) and the other to Jesus Christ.

[Mythra]

When I was a Christian, over and over again I would find passages that I couldn't get past.

 

Like when a man was caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath. God ordered the Hebrews to stone him, his wife, his kids, all of them, to death. And so, they were all slaughtered. Take a moment and picture it in your mind. Even though this was old testament, it was still supposedly the same God who sent his son to die for us. I couldn't resolve it. I thought surely there's a mistake. This isn't the God I worship.

 

Or, every time I heard that God's gift of salvation was a free gift, grace, unmerited, can't be earned. Then I would think of Jesus' words: "unless you forsake all that you have, you can't be my disciple". That doesn't sound too free...

 

It just began to seem useless to try and make sense of it. Until one day I just gave up trying.

[Ouroboros]

Or, every time I heard that God's gift of salvation was a free gift, grace, unmerited, can't be earned.  Then I would think of Jesus' words:  "unless you forsake all that you have, you can't be my disciple".  That doesn't sound too free...

 

 

I’ve been thinking about that statement too. Didn’t Jesus tell his disciples to “hate” his father and mother? So hating is a virtue God want us to have against our parents, but then we’ll be cursed if we disobey them, and are supposed to love our neighbor. It’s a very mixed message Jesus gives us.

[Totallyatpeace]

It just began to seem useless to try and make sense of it.  Until one day I just gave up trying.

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I still pursue understanding. By the way, I believe I have an answer to both of those examples but I will have to address them later.

[Totallyatpeace]

I’ve been thinking about that statement too. Didn’t Jesus tell his disciples to “hate” his father and mother? So hating is a virtue God want us to have against our parents, but then we’ll be cursed if we disobey them, and are supposed to love our neighbor. It’s a very mixed message Jesus gives us.

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I have spoken of this before. The translaion of hate in that context and many other times that it is used is "not in preferance to".

 

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. The preferance was toward Jacob.

 

Gotta run.

[pitchu]

I would be lying to say that I don't have a real problem with the doctrine of hell.

 

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Good to hear!

[NimbusBirdMgp]

... This Thread has got me ... :wacko_old:

 

... What I see is there is a DNA code in us. It makes us have a puzzle shape for things in this life. It is very diversed.

 

... It sometimes does fit the Christian Religion ideas.

 

... And with it being different in us all, a lot of us don't fit the Christian Religion.

 

... I don't fit a majority of Non Believers or Believers. I'm still finding myself a very odd piece in this world.

 

... I hate competitors that get the power to use their free will over mine. I can't get up in the early morning hours to get my necessary things done. I hate afternoons, for which I end up getting wide awake to sense the inimicalness of it.

 

... What ever I am, it gets hard to avoid periods of depression from things not cooperating in my life.

[Mythra]

o.k. really stupid question - but easily answered - this is the first forum of any kind I've ever been a part of, and I can't figure out how to include quotes from others when responding. help

[Totallyatpeace]

... This Thread has got me ...    :wacko_old:  

 

I'm sorry about that.  

 

...  What I see is there is a DNA code in us.  It makes us have a puzzle shape for things in this life.  It is very diversed.

 

That's the same logic that a lot of faiths are teaching right now. We are all created with a God sized hole that needs to be filled with *fill in the blank* religion. I think it's interesting that you bring this up.

 

...  It sometimes does fit the Christian Religion ideas.

 

Yes. He draws all man unto Himself.

 

...  And with it being different in us all, a lot of us don't fit the Christian Religion.

 

It's certainly your choice.

 

...  I don't fit a majority of Non Believers or Believers.  I'm still finding myself a very odd piece in this world.

 

Before you can truly find what you are looking for you need to learn to care for yourself. You have much to offer in this life.

 

...  I hate competitors that get the power to use their free will over mine.  I can't get up in the early morning hours to get my necessary things done.  I hate afternoons, for which I end up getting wide awake to sense the inimicalness of it.

 

I have googled to find this word and respond-- "inimicalness". So I can't quite  get your meaning here. I'll try later.

 

... What ever I am, it gets hard to avoid periods of depression from things not cooperating in my life.

 

Depression is nothing to mess with. Make sure you are seeking help if you need it.

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[Totallyatpeace]

o.k.  really stupid question -  but easily answered  - this is the first forum of any kind I've ever been a part of, and I can't figure out how to include quotes from others when responding.  help

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Hit the quote button at bottom right of the person's post.

[Mythra]

Hit the quote button at bottom right of the person's post.

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duh. thanks tap

[Guest marktaylor]

TAP,

 

I think you ignore the issue that the doctrine of Hell would make absolutely no sense within a Judaic worldview. Hell is never mentioned in the Tanakh and is not a part of Judaism. Liekwise, the concept of fallen angels is also not supported by the Tanakh, up to and including Satan/Lucifer. All of these concepts are distinctly pagan in origin. As such, if Yeshua was a real teacher in Israel, then there are only two possible explanations on why these concepts exist in Christianity. One is the Yeshua was a teacher (Rabbi) and these concepts were later added by theologians who came from a paganistic culture. The second possibility is that Yeshua actually taught these concepts and according to the guidelines of the Tanakh was teaching things that were in direct contradiction to the Tanakh, which is why he would have been executed as a false prophet. This brings us back to the core issue of Christianity that has plagued it since the beginning. Christianity wants to use the Tanakh and Judaism to support its claims, but Christianity is completely at odds with the worldview of Judaism and the Tanakh. Thus when Christians edited the Tanakh into the Old testament, they used a Latin formal name (Lucifer), correlated it to HaSatan and took a scriptural passage about the King of Babylon and said it was about fallen angels.

 

While you cling to faith in opposition to all of the evidence that Christianity is a synthetic belief system and incoherent, I could not do so. I am a Deist, of which I have never dissimulated about. I belive, based upon my personal, subjective interpretation of reality, that a higher power probably exists. But based upon formal and informal studies, I an confident revealed religions are not true. While all religions and philosophies contain truths and insights, they also contain things which are nonsensical, were incorporated for socio-political motives and/or were incorporated for superstitious reasons. If Christianity gives you guidance to live a peaceful and fulfilled life, then bravo for you. But in the final analysis, I think you simply gloss over the inherent problems with Christian doctrine to maintain your belief.

 

I will close with this thought. My mother is a Christian and is upset about my apostasy. She believes that she will spend enternity in Heaven with Jesus and that I, her oldest child, will be in Hell, where God will torture me, Ghandi, Einstein, Satan and most other intelligent beings  forever and ever. I asked her this question. "What kind of God would torture a woman's child for eternity and expect this woman to not greive for this same eternity"? If your doctrine is correct, then you serve a psychopathic deity and we are all merely ants for him to play with, like a child with a magnifying glass.

 

Bruce

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Agreed.

 

Question: Didn't the Jews pick up the notion of hell and Satan (Shaitin, Ahriman, Angra Mainyu) from the Persians? Not that any of this was incorporated into their teachings.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

... 'Inimical' is the main word, but I added 'ness' as a suffix.

 

... My Thesaurus shows these synonyms for 'inimical'

 

* adverse *

* antagonistic *

* belligerent *

* contrary *

* opposing *

* unfreindly *

* discord *

* irksome *

 

... The whole mix! Is what I get.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

Totallyatpeace?

 

... I don't think you understood my Post that you replied to. I had some different meanings about it. I am refering to DNA is a biological making with thousands of Brain and Chemicals that give us certian stimuli for our interest in life.

 

... Some of us have things to see this world in its senses...

 

* Sight *

* Sound *

* Taste *

* Feelings *

* Smell *

* Passions or Power *

* Introvert aspects or Extroverted aspects *

* Thinking verses Feeling aspects *

* Sensing Practical aspects with someone trying to be Intuitive, Imagitive and Creative aspects that isn't all Practical *

* There is Chemical exchanges in our Brain that like flavors in life. They are different in each of us. *

* What makes a male like a female and visa - versa. There is an inverse of this perception between people. There is more or less of the Spacial Brain to the Language Brain. *

 

... I'm more of a Spacial Brain than a Language Brain. People can see I struggle with language, but my Spacial Brain sees Aesthectics the greatest things in life. But to satisfy me, is the Aesthetics, not the language. But 98% of the world cares more about Language, then Spacial Needs.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I have spoken of this before. The translaion of hate in that context and many other times that it is used is "not in preferance to".

 

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. The preferance was toward Jacob.

 

Gotta run.

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Both jacob and esau were asshats. jacob was a scumbag. What was it about esau other than his selling his birthright, granted a very important gift from god, that would cause god to love jacob more?

 

God will have mercy on whom god will have mercy and will have compassion on whom he will have compassion, is an answer given by some Christians. But this is not just. Christians have no logical grounds for comparing god to a loving parent. god allegedly has omniscience, omnipotence, and is omnibenevolent.This story is inconsistent with gods abilties and nature. According to scripture god Is love. What should have happened in order for there to be consistency would have been for god to act as a loving parent and to settle the offenses like a loving parent would. Thats is, god would have not allowed esu to have had an empty belly to begin with, or at the very least, jacab would have been stopped and chastized by god right at the very monent that jacob tried to get esu to sell his birth right. Because of how god handled things, hatred esculated. This shows that god has no sense of justice and gods nature is not all loving.

 

Here is scripture that god did not live up to. We have a contradiction here.

 

1 Corinthians 13 4"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

 

What god did caused things to esculate between the brothers later on. So in this case we see that god is not living up to his nature which is love. If god IS love then god should not be proud and esau's offence would not be so important to god to begin with and god would have shown grace or charity. god did not protect esau from his brother jacob. "and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God" Was jacob dwelling in god by dwelling in love? No he was not. Also god did not persevere in keeping esau's birth right to him to who it was promised. Instead god allowed jacob to take advantage of his stupid brother. jacob is obviously the most intelligent of the two. who needs protection more? jacob or esau?

 

Here is another passage that god did not live up to.

 

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

Here it is asserted that god does not play favorites. That god judges according to everymans work. In the case of esau and jacob god played favorites and did not judge jacob for taking advantage of his stupid brother. And because of this hatred esculated. god is love. god is a just god. Really? Could have fooled me.

 

For every excuse Christians make I can give a scenareo that would have been more consistent with gods nature and abilities. Bible god is indeed incoherent as given us through scripture.

 

HanSolo

I’ve been thinking about that statement too. Didn’t Jesus tell his disciples to “hate” his father and mother? So hating is a virtue God want us to have against our parents, but then we’ll be cursed if we disobey them, and are supposed to love our neighbor. It’s a very mixed message Jesus gives us.

 

This was a very poor choice in words and is very short sited with the fact that future generations would have to become scholars ( dependant on other mens knowledge which negates a revalation from god when reading scripture), and it goes against the grain of honoring thy mother and father. Jesus also askes that people leave thier families ( meh, I guess children don't mean anything), to take up the cross.

 

 

This post is a lure that will show how bible gods omni attributes contradict gods actions and reasons. gods "plan" contradicts said omni attributes.

[nirrti]

Tap,

 

You remind me so much of my sweet grandmother. She's the type of person who goes to church every Sunday, and I do mean every Sunday, and has so much faith in God, even though it seems life does nothing but deal her one blow after another sometimes. She'll do anything for you and has this loving spirit that's so rare in people nowadays.

 

But one thing about her though, she believes the entire Bible to be the word of God, you know, no women preachers, no gays, no secular music on Sundays and she literally gets a migraine if a woman comes to church wearing pants, I kid you not.

I've always wondered how she could be so loving (she's a rock to me) and compassionate, yet actually believe in a God who'll send you to burn for eternity.

 

My guess is that's how she was raised (Her father was a deacon) and people from her era didn't question what they were taught. She subconciously feels if she starts asking questions, she may not be able to come up with any answers or worse, the ones she does come up with wouldn't be very appealing. So maybe it's more conforting to pretend you have all the answers than to admit most of your belief system that you based your entire life on was a lie. And at 65 years old, that would be devastating for her.

 

For you, I think you seriously have doubts about Christianity and there's more to your being here than just finding out what other people believe. And the reason you're not letting go is because you're afraid it would make everything in your life up to this point a facade and that's down right frightening.

 

But life is about asking ourselves questions and discovering who we are. If we knew everything, what would be the point of being alive? We wouldn't have anything to learn, therefore, no purpose in experiencing life in all it's intricacies and being here would be absolutely dull. So don't be afraid to question not only God but yourself as well.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Tap is a better person than the Christians I grew up with.

[Totallyatpeace]

Tap,

 

You remind me so much of my sweet grandmother.   That scares me...... 

 

She's the type of person who goes to church every Sunday, and I do mean every Sunday, and has so much faith in God, even though it seems life does nothing but deal her one blow after another sometimes.  She'll do anything for you and has this loving spirit that's so rare in people nowadays. 

 

Nirrti, you might be surprised to know that I am a very strong-willed woman and although I have faithfully attended the same church for a great deal of time, if I need to sleep on a Sunday, I do. I am also a bit of an eye-brow raiser because I'm not afraid to stand up to the Leadership (Pastor) if I feel he is incorrect in his teaching. (Grant it, I do that after the service or in an email, not during the service.) Anyway, your grandmother sounds like a wonderful woman.

 

But one thing about her though,  she believes the entire Bible to be the word of God, you know, no women preachers, no gays, no secular music on Sundays and she literally gets a migraine if a woman comes to church wearing pants, I kid you not.  

 

I believe the entire Bible to be the Word of God, also but the parts you mention above about women preachers and gays and music and wearing pants are taken out of context. I am committed to my Faith and wear jeans to church. I am being considered right now for a position as a liaison between the gay community and our church. Many gay people are looking for a church where they feel like they can worship freely but most often find the doors closed to them. And as far as women preachers.............I have my views on that, too. I am a teacher, not a preacher.

 

I've always wondered how she could be so loving (she's a rock to me) and compassionate, yet actually believe in a God who'll send you to burn for eternity.

 

She trusts Him.

 

My guess is that's how she was raised (Her father was a deacon) and people from her era didn't question what they were taught.  She subconciously feels if she starts asking questions, she may not be able to come up with any answers or worse, the ones she does come up with wouldn't be very appealing.   So maybe it's more conforting to pretend you have all the answers than to admit most of your belief system that you based your entire life on was a lie.  And at 65 years old, that would be devastating for her.

 

Have you truly asked her about this? Ask her if she agrees with everything you just said.

 

For you, I think you seriously have doubts about Christianity and there's more to your being here than just finding out what other people believe.  And the reason you're not letting go is because you're afraid it would make everything in your life up to this point a facade and that's down right frightening.

 

My entire life a facade? That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Nirrti, life is good for me. I am a very curious person and when people here started posting on a Christian web site I am familiar with, I simply became curious about them.

 

I do have some doubts from time to time about certain things but it only causes me to study harder until I can grasp it. I mentioned this earlier, but I really struggled with the speaking in tongues issue.  Would you believe it was two members here that resolved that issue for me?

 

But life is about asking ourselves questions and discovering who we are.  If we knew everything, what would be the point of being alive? 

 

Keep that in mind as you and others are posting absolute statements about me. I am constantly discovering who I am and desiring to learn more. It's the very reason I'm here.

 

We wouldn't have anything to learn, therefore, no purpose in experiencing life in all it's intricacies and being here would be absolutely dull.  So don't be afraid to question not only God but yourself as well.

 

God has had an earful of questions from me. Many of them he's answered. Some I'm still waiting on.

 

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[Totallyatpeace]

dogmatically_challenged~

 

I will respond to your post above in time.

[dogmatically_challenged]

dogmatically_challenged~

 

I will respond to your post above in time.

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Please take your time. I realise that you have a job and a family. Respond when ever you are ready.