Prove that Christian God is the Creator and...

[invictus1967]

The use of common sense tells us that something somewhere must be eternal, unless you believe that once there was nothing and this nothing produced everything.

 

NOTHING + NOTHING = EVERYTHING just doesn’t seem logical.

 

Therefore, if we accept the idea that something must be eternal, we must deduce what that something is. In my opinion, one of 2 things must be eternal- the universe or if not the universe, whatever created the universe.

 

I guess you could try to argue that the universe is not eternal but was never created either. However, that seems as illogical as the NOTHING equation mentioned before.

 

Science has very strong evidence (I did not say proof) that the universe is not eternal. This evidence includes but is not limited to:

---Einstein’s theory of general relativity (much to his distain)

---Hubble’s Law

---Discovery of background radiation in the 1960s

---George Smoot’s Berkley team discoveries in the 1990s

 

The “Big Bang” theory is the dominant theory to explain the existence of the universe.

 

If the universe is not eternal, something must have existed before it that was able to create it. This something had to exist beyond the scope of space/time and energy/matter because these are the properties of the universe. Being beyond these properties would make it supernatural. Being able to produce these properties would make it all-powerful.

 

I believe supernatural and all-powerful are attributes that describe God. Didn’t say a particular God (Islamic, Christian, whatever), just God.

 

The idea of an eternal supernatural all-powerful being to some doesn’t seem logical, but a universe creating itself from nothing is even more illogical.

 

This is (I believe) evidence of God. I didn’t say proof, I said evidence. There is a difference.

 

You tried to restrict the discussion by declaring the “God has always just been..." argument would not work. But I have offered evidence (again, not proof, but evidence) that “God has always been” is in fact a valid position.

 

Can you offer ANY evidence that suggest the concept of eternal is not a valid position?

 

Can you offer ANY evidence that suggest the universe was not created by something eternal? Be that God or whatever you choose to call it.

 

I a not asking you for proof of anything, just evidence.

[Guest JP1283]

A Christian friend of mine told me about why her father isn't a Christian. When he was little he was shuffled from home to home, he prayed and prayed for Jesus to help feed him. At a time in one's life when faith is the most childlike, Jesus didn't do jack crap. He didn't help to feed him, nor shelter him, or bring anyone good into his life. All those "promises". Of course, you will defend the precious deity and make excuses, we've heard them all. What a pathetic loser of a god and godman people worship. Please, if he can't even keep his earthly promises, there is certainly no guarantee that he will keep his promises of heaven either.

 

There are children with unbelievable amounts of faith in Jesus everyday who are abused and without food, MORE THAN NOT. Why doesn't the precious Jesus/God rain down some manna for the kids with bloated bellies in Africa? Now that, would be a miracle wouldn't it? Many children have faith more than that of a mustard seed and Jesus doesn't come through. Of course there is a logical explanation for God/Jesus not fulfilling promises.........they do not exist. I'm so glad that many PEOPLE have good hearts and help out as much as they can, many of which who are unbelievers.

 

[sarcasm]

But Thankful, Jesus is starving all those children as a way of bringing them closer to Him. Don't you get it? Jesus wants them all to die so they'll be in heaven with Him. Everything happens for a reason, Thankful. Praise Jesus.

[/sarcasm]

[Amanda]

I don't have "our Jesus spirit" nor do I want it.  I don't want to worship a God/Jesus who stands by and does nothing for abused children, or who sends bears to kill them.  If you want to glorify a violent monster, hey, that's fine but please do not call him "our" Jesus. 

 

A Christian friend of mine told me about why her father isn't a Christian.  When he was little he was shuffled from home to home, he prayed and prayed for Jesus to help feed him.  At a time in one's life when faith is the most childlike, Jesus didn't do jack crap.  He didn't help to feed him, nor shelter him, or bring anyone good into his life.  All those "promises".  Of course, you will defend the precious deity and make excuses, we've heard them all.  What a pathetic loser of a god and godman people worship.  Please, if he can't even keep his earthly promises, there is certainly no guarantee that he will keep his promises of heaven either. 

-------------------------------------------------

If someone lies to me 100 times and follows through on 5 or 6 or 45 things, that person is still a liar.  If the deity in the bible is true he is a liar and not worthy of worship.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Thankful. Why do I get this feeling that you are angry at ME? If EVERYONE thought just alike... think about it... wouldn't it be boring? I respect your outrage and am in agreement with you at the disregard man has shown for another man's dilemnas. Maybe the real miracle would be if man's heart would not be so hard? All I offer is another perspective that exists out there in this world... I hope we can agree to disagree without any discontent towards one another. This is just a wonderful debating arena...

 

In MY view, in light with what you have said above... I think 'God' gives man free will, and his objective is to work through us IF WE WILL ALLOW IT. My philosophy, and I know you probably don't agree, is that there is a 'higher nature' in all of us (that often goes disregarded), and when this higher nature does show itself... THAT deserves praise. Generally, we can not control what another person does or doesn't do to/for us... yet 'I' believe that 'MY' Jesus brings principles that offers the way to overcome torment... as he demonstrated for us to his death.

 

'My' interpretation is interjected into the verses you quote.. just another perspective... that's all.

One more thing and any Christian can feel free to answer this.  How can you call a deity loving that PROMISES the following...AND THIS IS "SPOKEN" BY GOD....This says that HE WILL CAUSE this to happen and please, tell me, how in the world can anyone say that god loves ALL children and ALL on earth after reading such a disgusting "promise". BTW...this is yet another unfulfilled prophecy.  This was supposed to happen over 2000 yrs. ago.

 

Judgment on the Day of the LORD  Isaiah 13

 

      6Wail, for the (M)day of the LORD is near!

      It will come as (N)destruction from the Almighty.

      7Therefore (O)all hands will fall limp,

      And every man's (P)heart will melt.

THE HARDENED OF HEART WILL BE DISTROYED AND BECOME SOFT.

      8They will be (Q)terrified,

      Pains and anguish will take hold of them;

      They will ®writhe like a woman in labor,

      They will look at one another in astonishment,

      Their faces aflame.

ANGUISHING WITH OUR LACK OF COMPASSION, THE THE PAIN IS LIKE A PREGNANT WOMAN THAT KNOWS THE JOY OF A NEW AND WONDERFUL CREATION IS COMING. OUR FACES SHINE IN TRUTH.

      9Behold, (S)the day of the LORD is coming,

      Cruel, with fury and burning anger,

      To make the land a desolation;

      And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

THE SINFUL NATURE IN EACH ONE OF US WILL BE GONE.

      10For the (T)stars of heaven and their constellations

      Will not flash forth their light;

      The (U)sun will be dark when it rises

      And the moon will not shed its light.

THESE TINY SPECS OF LIGHT IN VAST DARK PLACES, AND THEIR FOOLISHNESS WILL NOT BOAST ANYMORE, THE OBJECT OF ILLICIT WORSHIP WILL BE OUT OF SIGHT WHEN GOD RISES, AND THIS TIME (AS IN TIME OF THE MONTH) WILL NOT BE REVEALED.

      11Thus I will (V)punish the world for its evil

      And the (W)wicked for their iniquity;

      I will also put an end to the (X)arrogance of the proud

      And abase the (Y)haughtiness of the (Z)ruthless.

GOD WILL RECKON WITH THE LACK OF COMPASSION, TO END THE NATURE FROM THE LACK OF IT.

      12I will make mortal man (AA)scarcer than pure gold

      And mankind than the (AB)gold of Ophir.

GOD WILL END THE NARCISSISTIC MAN, MAKING MANKIND VERY PRECIOUS.

      13Therefore I will make the (AC)heavens tremble,

      And (AD)the earth will be shaken from its place

      At the fury of the LORD of hosts

      In (AE)the day of His burning anger.

ALL IN HEAVEN WILL BE EXCITED, MEN OF EARTH WILL BE SHAKEN FROM THEIR FOUNDATIONS, AND THE POURING FORTH OF THE 'HIGHER NATURE' IN MAN WILL BE QUITE DISPLEASED AT WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IN VANITY.

      14And it will be that like a hunted gazelle,

      Or like (AF)sheep with none to gather them,

      They will each turn to his own people,

      And each one flee to his own land.

NO MATTER WHAT ONE DOES, THERE WILL BE NO ESCAPE FROM THE JUDGEMENT OF OUR VANITY/ARROGANCE, AND AT FIRST WE MAY BLAME EACH OTHER, YET EVENTUALLY WE WILL BE LEFT TO JUDGE OUR SELF.

      15Anyone who is found will be (AG)thrust through,

      And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.

ONCE FOUND, GOD PENETRATES THE HEART AND CUTS AWAY THE STONE.

      16Their (AH)little ones also will be dashed to pieces

      Before their eyes;

WHAT ANYONE HAS NURTURED AS THEIR OWN CREATIONS IN THEIR DEPRAVED STATES WILL BE GONE,

      Their houses will be plundered

WHAT THEY HAD AND CHERISHED ITS WORLDLY VALUE WILL BE OF NO VALUE ANYMORE.

      And their wives ravished

AND WHAT WORLDLY VALUES AND ARTICLES THEY HAD INTIMATELY JOINED UNTO THEM SELVES WILL BE NOW KNOWN AS A VIOLATION.

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[DeathWorship]

from all studies i've done.. the universe isn't finite or infinite.. it cycles..

read the current state of cosmology.

 

also.. i don't understand why we need a "purpose" to live. i don't believe in conciousness, and since i don't believe in that.. where is the purpose? if we are made up of non-sentient material (molecules, atoms.. etc) then how can we truly be sentient? i believe "conciousness" is just an emergent property.. its neither special nor divine. there is no free will, no choice, the universe was, is, and will be.

 

all things in the universe are just waves and vibrations that manipulate our building-blocks. that makes up what we "see" and "feel". GOD IS IRRELEVANT.

[Mr. Neil]

from all studies i've done.. the universe isn't finite or infinite.. it cycles..

read the current state of cosmology.

 

also.. i don't understand why we need a "purpose" to live. i don't believe in conciousness, and sense i don't believe in that.. where is the purpose? if we are made up of non-sentient material (molecules, atoms.. etc) then how can we truly be sentient? i believe "conciousness" is just an emergent property.. its neither special nor divine. there is no free will, no choice, the universe was, is, and will be.

 

all things in the universe are just waves and vibrations that manipulate our building-blocks. that makes up what we "see" and "feel". GOD IS IRRELEVANT.

Or as I like to say, God is extra. It's a concept that is, in effect, a fifth wheel.

 

It doesn't solve the problem. It takes the question and pushes it back a step. The statement that God created the universe is worthless, because it doesn't enhance our understanding at all. It's very anti-learning.

[DeathWorship]

Amanda,

 

I'm not mad at you, but unlike some others, I don't believe that your version of biblegod is a breath of fresh air.  IMO, you are trying to soften even the most horrific of all verses to lead others to a religion that people are tortured for.  No matter how sweetly you dress up this tyrannical religion, people are being killed for believing in it and have killed those who disagree with it.  Regardless of how sweet you attempt to make biblegod, this religion has done major damage to people and screwed with people for thousands of years (altogether). 

 

One doesn't need to believe in the bible or anything it stands for in order to be good, loving, kind, caring, nor giving.  One doesn't have to the type of vile and disgusting threats of a book for disobedience in order to be a good and loving person.  Any book that puts forth such trash and makes a deity so evil is nothing but garbage.  People have shown proof that many of Jesus's teachings were in effect way before Christianity and also, many of biblegod laws were that of earlier religions.

 

I'm irritated with what you write though and I won't hide it.  Your beliefs are totally unbiblical yet you cling to the bible by trying to see it "your" way.  No one has ever been killed in the name of Buddha, all in all it pretty much is a peaceful religion.  So why are you clinging to a religion in which it's deities threaten such horrible things?  A religion whose "righteous" include rapists, murders, adulterers, and those that commit incest.  Are you afraid that by believing in something other than the bible that you'll go to hell?  Just wondering.

 

I wouldn't accept a book of how to live from Charles Manson, a mass murderer.  So why do you accept a book filled with "how to live rightly" and "spiritually" from a people even more violent than that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fucking A!

[invictus1967]

thankful,

 

Your entire premise in post 1 was essentially that an eternal God could not be used as a valid argument. Once I showed that an eternal God was a valid position (belief in that position is optional) you try to change the parameters of the discussion.

 

It now appears that the “Gods” of this board were threatened by my response and have deleted it.

 

Where is Jack Nicholson when you need him?

“You can’t handle the truth!!!”

 

If you guys don’t want to be exposed to Christian ideas, then remove “Debating with Christians” from the board.

 

It seems that any answer that isn’t the answer you want is deemed unrelated to the subject or considered “anti-learning”.

 

Unreal.

[Ouroboros]

The use of common sense tells us that something somewhere must be eternal, unless you believe that once there was nothing and this nothing produced everything.

 

NOTHING + NOTHING = EVERYTHING just doesn’t seem logical.

Here you go again Invictus.

 

Ok, Penrose doesn’t agree to the nothing theorem of the universe beginning. The edge of singularity for time and space is not nothing, is something, but not nothing. So the formula in the science world looks like this: SOMETHING + SOMETHING = EVERYTHING.

 

Therefore, if we accept the idea that something must be eternal, we must deduce what that something is. In my opinion, one of 2 things must be eternal- the universe or if not the universe, whatever created the universe.

 

I guess you could try to argue that the universe is not eternal but was never created either. However, that seems as illogical as the NOTHING equation mentioned before.

You make an assumption based on a feeling and call it logic.

 

Science has very strong evidence (I did not say proof) that the universe is not eternal. This evidence includes but is not limited to:

---Einstein’s theory of general relativity (much to his distain)

---Hubble’s Law

---Discovery of background radiation in the 1960s

---George Smoot’s Berkley team discoveries in the 1990s

It’s depending on the viewpoint; a singularity has to time or space but does exist.

Ekpyrotic universe model works too to explain the universe.

 

I’m surprised you haven’t used the quantum entanglement paradoxes instead.

And you have not said anything about dark matter or graviton either.

 

The “Big Bang” theory is the dominant theory to explain the existence of the universe.

And there are several different versions of the events before big bang. There are several different scenarios that don’t require a creator.

 

If the universe is not eternal, something must have existed before it that was able to create it. This something had to exist beyond the scope of space/time and energy/matter because these are the properties of the universe. Being beyond these properties would make it supernatural. Being able to produce these properties would make it all-powerful.

You still make the leap of faith. The sun is not creating the flower on the ground, yet that is what you claim.

 

I believe supernatural and all-powerful are attributes that describe God. Didn’t say a particular God (Islamic, Christian, whatever), just God.

Finally you admit. You “believe” is the keyword.

 

The idea of an eternal supernatural all-powerful being to some doesn’t seem logical, but a universe creating itself from nothing is even more illogical.

 

This is (I believe) evidence of God. I didn’t say proof, I said evidence. There is a difference.

It’s a matter of having all information of what happened just before big bang, which we don’t have, and it’s how we interpret that information. So it’s not about logic or not logic, it’s about lack of knowledge and information, and doing a parsimonious decision.

 

You tried to restrict the discussion by declaring the “God has always just been..." argument would not work. But I have offered evidence (again, not proof, but evidence) that “God has always been” is in fact a valid position.

 

Can you offer ANY evidence that suggest the concept of eternal is not a valid position?

You’re the one fighting really hard that the universe is not eternal, so it follows this:

Either

Universe=Is Eternal, God=Is not

Or

Universe=Not Eternal, God=Is Eternal

 

It’s a matter of flavor in you coffee, not a matter of if it can be or not.

 

If God exist he can be eternal, but it also means that considering that nothing as complex and advanced as a God that can create a universe can just exist, it’s the same logic, he must have been created.

 

Can you offer ANY evidence that suggest the universe was not created by something eternal? Be that God or whatever you choose to call it.

That is not the question; you chose the most valid standpoint. We can’t prove the IPU created the Universe but we don’t believe the IPU did it. The proof is in the lack of evidence, and your evidence is not strong enough to hold.

 

I a not asking you for proof of anything, just evidence.

There is none to either way. There is no evidence to prove God or to disprove God.

God is just like the story of the Gold Pot in the Infinite House.

[Alice]

Thankful,

 

I'm interested in a couple of comments you've made - the first links in with another post of yours when you quoted from a book 'jesus freaks' about 'martyrdom'. I share your abhorrance of people who are not christians being killed 'in the name of christianity' but I'm surprised that you seem to be placing the blame for people being killed by others because they have a belief in christianity - also at christianity's door. Have I misunderstood you? If not - would you be able to elaborate a little further why you think if somone else murders a christian for their beliefs it is the christians fault for believing (rather than the killer being to blame)

 

No matter how sweetly you dress up this tyrannical religion, people are being killed for believing in it and have killed those who disagree with it.

 

I also wanted to refer to your comment about buddhism as well. I've been thinking about this a lot recently - and about the interplay between culture, philosophy and religion. you make the following comment,

 

No one has ever been killed in the name of Buddha, all in all it pretty much is a peaceful religion. 

 

I think where I am at the moment in terms of an understanding of the bible and it's place in western history, is that I think 'where it's all gone wrong' is in the western way of thinking that seems to value all things 'concrete and literal' above all else.

 

I'd been thinking about the Buddhist teaching 'if you find Buddha on the road - kill him' and wondering what the western literal mindset would have done to that. Any thoughts?

[Reach]

It now appears that the “Gods” of this board were threatened by my response and have deleted it.

Invictus, I believe that you're mistaken. I checked the deleted posts logs and I didn't find the one you are referring to. How long ago did you post it?

 

If it really exists, I may repost it for you, after I read it.

[Vixentrox]

Actually people have been killed between rival Buhddist factions. They are not all the same. For example, Thai buhddists are different than Korean Buhddists.

[Alice]

You are right, I had better elaborate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the elaboration. I guess the difficulty here lies in the fact that christian missionaries think that people's eternal lives are in danger and that to them is a greater danger than the danger posed by oppressive murderous govenments who won't tolerate anyone holding a different set of beliefs to theirs. And in this instance there they are doing what your average christian gets slammed for not doing!

 

I don't think that the Western way of thinking has anything to do with being concrete and literal.  Biblegod says that if one even inquires about another god that they need to be stoned to death.  According to the bible God meant that literally.  I think Western thinking, makes things more allegorical, like Amanda, for example on what is to be taken literal.  Buddhism (haven't studied) that much, OTH, is literally spirtual.

 

I have no clue if that is what you were looking so feel free to question more if needed.

As Post modernist thought enters christianity there is a return to a belief that the stories of the Bible are allegorical in some quarters, but certainly my understanding of western christianity throughout the modern era has been to award the Bible 'literal' status. My view would be that eastern religions tend to see the allegory. The christianity of the west has all been about viewing the stories as 'literally true'.

 

If you don't see western thinking as concrete and literal - how do you see it?

 

I think what I was saying is that if Buddha's comment had been put in the mouth of a christian prophet and inserted into the pages of the Bible - then maybe it would prudent never to share an insight with a travelling companion for risk of getting killed! it's about the way thing's are interpreted rather than the words of the tale. i.e the buddhist approach - 'obviously buddah didn't actually mean kill enlightened people ... let's think about this now ... what could he have meant ...' (long interesting spiritually blessing conversation ensues)

 

Modern christian approach ... 'clearly we are to take this literally ... stone all the clever bods and be sharp about it....' (long blood bath ensues)

[Amanda]

Hello Invictus...

It is nice to see you on this site! This site seems to welcome alternate suggestions to ideas, while maintaining their right to their own reasoning. I'm sure you have some wonderful ideas to offer. I'm fairly new and this is the first post that I have noticed from you... so I am not totally aware of the continuing communication between you and to whom this post is directed.. yet, I'd like to make a comment in a loving and affectionalte way to you.

 

We (Christians) are here, basically as guest, on a site that is an exchristian site... and I have found most here to be a very gracious group to me... even if they don't agree with or even hate my beliefs. This is their site, the name is exchristians, yet many are respectful of me... perhaps not my beliefs... that is all I can ask. I think, that as Christians... we can show them the same Christlike nature in respecting them... especially here on their site. I am in no way reprimanding you as I understand your passion... yet why lose a great connection to explore yourself from a new perspective because of anger?

 

It now appears that the “Gods” of this board were threatened by my response and have deleted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Assumptions have gotten me in a lot of trouble in the past.

Where is Jack Nicholson when you need him?

“You can’t handle the truth!!!”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack Nicholson? Maybe we can only offer suggestions based on our perspective... Perhaps it is God that allows everyone to believe what they want?

 

If you guys don’t want to be exposed to Christian ideas, then remove “Debating with Christians” from the board.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're here aren't we? Perhaps they let us in for us, and maybe we are here for them... who knows? I think that all we can ask is respect for each other as a person.... and perhaps we can be grateful for whatever degree of hospitality we do get?

It seems that any answer that isn’t the answer you want is deemed unrelated to the subject or considered “anti-learning”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Invictus, I hate to be the one to tell you this... that may be how they think of us too.

 

Love ya' brother-

[invictus1967]

You say “prove Christian God” and only use “logical” answers but you don’t want this to be a science thread.

 

To prove Christian God, you must first establish an eternal God. You say using the “God has just always existed” argument is not a good enough answer. That leads one to believe that you are rejecting faith based answers.

 

If you only want “logical” non-faith based answers that are unscientific, I must admit, you have me stumped.

[DeathWorship]

You say “prove Christian God” and only use “logical” answers but you don’t want this to be a science thread.

 

To prove Christian God, you must first establish an eternal God. You say using the “God has just always existed” argument is not a good enough answer. That leads one to believe that you are rejecting faith based answers.

 

If you only want “logical” non-faith based answers that are unscientific, I must admit, you have me stumped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i personally would like to know.. in a scientific logical sense of "KNOWING"..

 

1. WHAT WAS God doing before he created the earth?

 

2. How can freewill exist if we are predestined in God's "perfect will", and if god's will is perfect and pre-ordained, how can we make the choice to be christians??

 

3. If God is benevolent and loving, why are there so many murders, rapes, CHILD murders/rapes, how can OTHER RELIGIONS exist??

 

4. If he is all powerful, why would he let Adam & Eve go out of his control and defy him, same thing with Satan.

 

just a few i'd like to know the "TRUE" answers for..

[crazy-tiger]

You say “prove Christian God” and only use “logical” answers but you don’t want this to be a science thread.

 

To prove Christian God, you must first establish an eternal God. You say using the “God has just always existed” argument is not a good enough answer. That leads one to believe that you are rejecting faith based answers.

 

If you only want “logical” non-faith based answers that are unscientific, I must admit, you have me stumped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if the "it's always existed" argument for the universe isn't a good enough answer for people like you, should it be a good enough answer when refering to God?

 

If it's not, then you wouldn't be complaining.

If it is, then you're a hypocrite.

 

 

Take your pick...

[Amanda]

Well, if the "it's always existed" argument for the universe isn't a good enough answer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hello Crazy Tiger. I readily admit my astronomy and physics is no where in the same league as you and others here. I've been fascinated by this thread. Having seen Stephen Hawking's video, A Brief History of Time... I understand 'somewhat' that the universe has always existed. My question is this, Perhaps the universe IS God? (please don't laugh yet!) Consider further: if everything came out of God, everything is part of God. Couldn't God, energy/force/animating power, be the creator AND the created also? Wouldn't that make this theory compatible with the description of God in the "Book" which says that God always was AND God is in everything and everything is in God? maybe there is no separation?

[Ouroboros]

Hello Crazy Tiger. I readily admit my astronomy and physics is no where in the same league as you and others here. I've been fascinated by this thread. Having seen Stephen Hawking's video, A Brief History of Time... I understand 'somewhat' that the universe has always existed. My question is this, Perhaps the universe IS God? (please don't laugh yet!) Consider further: if everything came out of God, everything is part of God. Couldn't God, energy/force/animating power, be the creator AND the created also? Wouldn't that make this theory compatible with the description of God in the "Book" which says that God always was AND God is in everything and everything is in God? maybe there is no separation?

 

No one is laughing. It's a valid point.

 

You can say Atheism base it's idea on the same thought, but takes it one step further: if the Universe is self created, does it have to be conscious or can it be just caused? Before we know the answer, the atheist maintain the universe is self caused, because it's the simples answer, until we have more information and knowledge.

 

Compared to Christianity it's a fallacy. What you described was Patheism. Everything is God. While monotheism like Christianity maintain God, the Creator, being separated from the Universe, the Created. And it's the same in Theism. Theism requires God to be a part of the daily events in our world.

 

Deism give God a less personal feature. He created the universe, but he's distant and not involved in our world anymore.

 

Pantheism, like I said, everything is God.

 

In Naturalism, Daoism and Paganism, God is even less defined, he's the life force, and somewhat we are part of God and his power. Life (Chi) is everywhere.

[Amanda]

You can say Atheism base it's idea on the same thought, but takes it one step further: if the Universe is self created, does it have to be conscious or can it be just caused? Before we know the answer, the atheist maintain the universe is self caused, because it's the simples answer, until we have more information and knowledge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the universe is self created, how would that be eternal? As I understand Stephen Hawking's video.. it always was.

Compared to Christianity it's a fallacy. What you described was Patheism. Everything is God. While monotheism like Christianity maintain God, the Creator, being separated from the Universe, the Created. And it's the same in Theism. Theism requires God to be a part of the daily events in our world.

 

Deism give God a less personal feature. He created the universe, but he's distant and not involved in our world anymore.

 

Pantheism, like I said, everything is God.

 

In Naturalism, Daoism and Paganism, God is even less defined, he's the life force, and somewhat we are part of God and his power. Life (Chi) is everywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that the teachings of Jesus say that we have been given the ministry of reconcilliation, as I believe to be 'individually within' and 'collectively' with others. Perhaps each 'religion' holds a piece of the puzzle and if we put them all together... perhaps a clearer picture presents itself. Jesus says that He will come again like lightening from the 'east' to the west, which I believe to be in a corporate body. Are you aware of theories on the 'lost years of Jesus'? Many religions actually came from the same source. Abraham, the father of Ishmael (Islamic), Issac (Judeo, Christian), and few are aware of his children after Sarah died (yet Biblical) which he sent to the far east.

[crazy-tiger]

Hello Crazy Tiger. I readily admit my astronomy and physics is no where in the same league as you and others here. I've been fascinated by this thread. Having seen Stephen Hawking's video, A Brief History of Time... I understand 'somewhat' that the universe has always existed. My question is this, Perhaps the universe IS God? (please don't laugh yet!)

No laughter from me... as Han said, it's a valid point, but it's also impossible for the God to be the Christian God. (you see why in a bit.)

Consider further: if everything came out of God, everything is part of God. Couldn't God, energy/force/animating power, be the creator AND the created also? Wouldn't that make this theory compatible with the description of God in the "Book" which says that God always was AND God is in everything and everything is in God? maybe there is no separation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the basic problem is that nothing can create itself. It's so heidiously against the laws of nature or indeed, any evidence we've got, that the idea itself violates causality. Causality (as I understand it) is basically cause and effect. You have a cause, which leads to effect. (by the way, if I'm getting this wrong, will someone please correct me? I really don't want to embarrass myself...) The way to look at this is -- God is the cause and God is the effect.

Since you can't have the effect before the cause, and since the effect IS the cause, in this case the whole idea falls apart...

 

It's a shame, because it's a neat way of bridging the gap between Creationists and Naturalists and would prove them both right. (hey, it'd go a long way to stopping the endless arguments between them... )

 

To be honest though, the only way that God could create himself would be if he was outside the universe. This is another problem, as the universe, by definition, contains everything... that would mean that it contains God. That shows that God is either a non-entity (ie. doesn't exist) or was created at the same time or after the universe.

 

That shows pretty well that the whole idea ruins any possibility of that particular concept of God being the Christian God, as that concept came before the universe.

 

However, since the concept of the Christian God came from the Bible, and since the Bible is known to contain errors, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the concept itself is wrong and that God and the universe are one and the same, although that would mean that we would then need to find what created God/the Universe...

 

 

Personally, I think I'll stick with the "it's always been there" idea... it'll stop me losing sleep trying to figure out what caused the cause, what caused the cause that caused the cause, and what caused the cause that caused the cause that caused the cause... and so on.

[Ouroboros]

If the universe is self created, how would that be eternal? As I understand Stephen Hawking's video.. it always was.

 

I only used that expression as a metaphor from your previous statement:

 

My question is this, Perhaps the universe IS God? (please don't laugh yet!) Consider further: if everything came out of God, everything is part of God. Couldn't God, energy/force/animating power, be the creator AND the created also?

 

When Stephen Hawking talk about the eternal universe, he's talking about the singularity where time and space stops to exist. They say there was Nothing before the Big Bang, but it's not the same as when we think of Nothing, it's the Unknown Nothing, the Something without Properties, the Nothing with Properties.

 

Universe came to existence at the Big Bang. When we ask yourself what caused it, we relate to a phenomenon in this universe that is called cause and effect. But even Cause and effect came to existence at the moment of Big Bang, so not even the Cause existed, we only have an effect. So in a sense the Universe did create itself, how ridiculous it ever may seem.

 

So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?

-- Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time

[Amanda]

Personally, I think I'll stick with the "it's always been there" idea... it'll stop me losing sleep trying to figure out what caused the cause, what caused the cause that caused the cause, and what caused the cause that caused the cause that caused the cause... and so on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Crazy Tiger, that is what I AM saying.. God/universe has always been there... eternal. As I understand the Big Bang... an explosion, an expansion, a collapsing, a reconciling back to origin, starts again. That is the underlying tone of the Bible! Perhaps creation happens from bang to bang? God constantly recreating itself. On top of that... time does not exist... (or has that been disproven?)... more support for all that is eternal? Everything is relative... no? BTW, relative to what? Light? Just curious... you guys are the experts.

[Amanda]

I only used that expression as a metaphor from your previous statement:

When Stephen Hawking talk about the eternal universe, he's talking about the singularity where time and space stops to exist. They say there was Nothing before the Big Bang, but it's not the same as when we think of Nothing, it's the Unknown Nothing, the Something without Properties, the Nothing with Properties.

 

Universe came to existence at the Big Bang. When we ask yourself what caused it, we relate to a phenomenon in this universe that is called cause and effect. But even Cause and effect came to existence at the moment of Big Bang, so not even the Cause existed, we only have an effect. So in a sense the Universe did create itself, how ridiculous it ever may seem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember that quote from Stephen Hawkings on the video. Yes, it did cause me to take notice. My assertion is STILL that God and / or the universe are equal and therefore both eternal. God did start as a singularity too! Out of Him all things were CREATED... Big Bang... separating the heavens and the earth... the light and the dark... and it preceded from there... And the one thing that can not exist in singularity is compainionship... hence, the eventual need for the word.

 

As I understand the theory, the Big Bang happens over and over again... making it all eternal... no? Cause and effect... that would be respective as to time existing, wouldn't it?

[Ouroboros]

As I understand the theory, the Big Bang happens over and over again... making it all eternal... no? Cause and effect... that would be respective as to time existing, wouldn't it?

 

It's not known yet.

 

It could be a one time event in this particular universe or it could be eventually contracting and doing it over again. But the expansion of the universe is accelerating and not slowing down, so it looks like this universe will eventually die. And when entropy reaches a certain level, maybe a new collision with a parallel universe happens. Science is still trying to figure it out, and I don't think enough can be proven the next 50-100 years. Hopefully shorter, but who knows.

[Ouroboros]

Crazy Tiger, that is what I AM saying.. God/universe has always been there... eternal. As I understand the Big Bang... an explosion, an expansion, a collapsing, a reconciling back to origin, starts again. That is the underlying tone of the Bible! Perhaps creation happens from bang to bang? God constantly recreating itself. On top of that... time does not exist... (or has that been disproven?)... more support for all that is eternal? Everything is relative... no? BTW, relative to what? Light? Just curious... you guys are the experts.

 

Relative means that something is relative to everything else.

 

If you travel in a certain speed in one direction, your perception of time and space will be distorted in relation to the other people that doesn't travel or travel a different direction.

 

If you travel at the speed of ligth, your time has pretty much stopped compared to the rest of us. We see you travel but you're not moving. But to you time hasn't stopped because your perception of time is depending on how matter slows down in higher speed.

 

Think about this, how do you measure time? With a watch.

What does the watch consist of? Matter.

 

Simple put: (really rough estimates in time comparisons)

 

Now if matter slows down when you travel faster, that means your watch will tick slower, and your brain signals will signal slower, so you will actually not feel that time has slowed down, you still will think that your time is like normal.

The only problem is that when 1 second have passed for you, in your spaceship, you have already reached the far out in space. Beyond our solar system.

 

At the same time when we watch you, our watch will say 1 second, that means you have only reached 1/20 of the distance to the Moon. (IIRC)

 

So our time is faster than yours. And this will affect aging too. So you will age slower than us. You travel one second of your time out in space, and one second back to earth, and on earth your friends grand-grand-grand children are grown up and old.

 

Time exists, but it's not an absolute.