The Doctrine Of Hell

[SWIM]

HELL is mentioned over 50 times in the bible. It is *not* a place of burning trash as some translate it, there is no weeping and gnashing of teeth at the garbage dump. (unless you accidentally tossed out something important and are frantically trying to find it).

 

A. Facts about hell from the bible:

 

1. Torment (Rev. 20: 10);

 

2. Outer darkness (Matt. 25:30);

 

3. Place of unquenchable fire (Mk. 9:44-48; Rev. 21:8);

 

4. everlasting punishment (Rev. 20:10, 14-15; Matt. 25: 46; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).

 

And this is *just* a few...

 

 

 

Do christians have any understanding at *all* as to what the definition of eternity is?

 

It is a *hard* word. Lets make it easier.

 

Instead of eternity, let's call it 1000 years. If you live to be 100, think of your lifespan and multiply it times 10. Easier to wrap your head around.

 

Now imagine you got caught shoplifting.

 

You get sentenced in court to:

 

a: Probation

b: Chopping off both hands

c: 20 years

d: life without parole

e: A new form of medicine is available to keep you alive for 1000 years, so you are sent to prison to serve 1000 years.

 

Which sentence would be just? Which option is *fair*? Even if the prison is only an island (an absence of justice, no laws)?

 

Now think about god.

Here is an escape clause: "If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and that he is your savior, then you will go to Heaven."

 

Here is the catch 22: "Many will say to me (Jesus) on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and

perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

All contradictions aside, we will save that for another discussion, how do you justify the injustice of the bible god?

How can you *LOVE* and worship that which you *insult* by believing he can commit such evil judgement?

 

Example: If *I* were a judge that sat on a bench, and *you* thought I was capable, even remotely, of torturing you for 1000 years for any crime, then I would be offended by you for thinking so less of me. I surely would not expect you to praise my son either.

 

Remember christians that *even* when replying, if you say "hell is merely a separation from god",then can we agree that at the *very* least it is considered "unpleasant?" Unpleasant for thousands upon thousands of years is torture.

And here's one for the "Free Will" argument. If you *think* you have free will, then go rob a casino. Most christians think they are evil anyway, so it won't be a sin, well not a big one anyway. You have the "free will" to do it, go get a gun, no supernatural force will stop you. You DO NOT because you *know* you will be punished. This is not free will. You have no choice, you are not allowed to rob the casino.

 

I rest my case. For now...

 

 

Any takers?

 

[GraphicsGuy]

HELL is mentioned over 50 times in the bible.

 

Is it even that many? How many times are repeats in the gospels?

 

I always find it interesting how there is so much doctrinal "surety" of certain things that are actually mentioned very little in the Bible. Hell, demons, Lucifer/Satan...

[dibby]

Hell would be sitting in "heaven" surrounded by millions of evangelicals (or will it be the catholics???) singing hymns to god forever whilst realising some people you love are not there.

[qadeshet]

Hell would be sitting in "heaven" surrounded by millions of evangelicals (or will it be the catholics???) singing hymns to god forever whilst realising some people you love are not there.

 

Of course, pity for those in Hell is not possible.

 

THOMAS AQUINAS

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned?So that they may be urged the more to praise God?The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens? to the damned. [summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned?"]

 

JONATHAN EDWARDS

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever?Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss. ["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

[arseniajoaquin]

I am a translator of the Holy Bible from Greek to English and I have already published THE WILL BIBLE (NEW TESTAMENT). The Greek word gehenna is translated in the many versions circulating around the world as hell. Sometimes the Greek word Hades is also translated as hell. In my translation, I transliterated both - gehenna and Hades. In the New Testament, the word gehenna is used 12 times while Hades, 10 times.

 

God is righteous and God has spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever. The earth is like fire where gold is passed seven times to make it pure. For those who believe, the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the truth. It is up for everyone of us to believe or not to believe.

[Deva]

God is righteous and God has spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever. The earth is like fire where gold is passed seven times to make it pure. For those who believe, the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the truth. It is up for everyone of us to believe or not to believe.

 

In what way is it righteous to throw a human being in hell for eternity because he didn't believe for the short span of a lifetime, even a long lifetime? How is that right?

 

According to what you say, most of the earth's population that ever existed is going to hell. How does that make you feel?

[Ouroboros]

God is righteous and God has spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever. The earth is like fire where gold is passed seven times to make it pure. For those who believe, the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the truth. It is up for everyone of us to believe or not to believe.

That's what you believe, and it is a sick belief. If you didn't have this religiou would you fear Hell? Are you happy you're going to Heaven? Are you happy literally billions of people will go to an eternal punishment? And while you're at it, what kind of physics allows a fire to burn spiritual beings?

[Jubilant]

HELL is mentioned over 50 times in the bible. It is *not* a place of burning trash as some translate it, there is no weeping and gnashing of teeth at the garbage dump. (unless you accidentally tossed out something important and are frantically trying to find it).

 

A. Facts about hell from the bible:

 

1. Torment (Rev. 20: 10);

 

2. Outer darkness (Matt. 25:30);

 

3. Place of unquenchable fire (Mk. 9:44-48; Rev. 21:8);

 

4. everlasting punishment (Rev. 20:10, 14-15; Matt. 25: 46; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).

 

And this is *just* a few...

 

Every scripture that you've posted is from the NT. The concept of such a place is non-existent in the OT. In the OT, it is indeed a place in which trash is dumped.

 

I'm on your side though, but one must take into account the whole Bible because in not doing so, we gloss over the fact that the Torah doesn't even warn of eternal punishing, you'll be hard pressed to find such a doctrine in the OT at all...unless of course you twist a couple of scriptures.

[Japedo]

I am a translator of the Holy Bible from Greek to English and I have already published THE WILL BIBLE (NEW TESTAMENT). The Greek word gehenna is translated in the many versions circulating around the world as hell. Sometimes the Greek word Hades is also translated as hell. In my translation, I transliterated both - gehenna and Hades. In the New Testament, the word gehenna is used 12 times while Hades, 10 times.

 

 

 

First, gehenna is not greek, it's Hebrew. and it means "The Gate of the Valley" referring to the southern border of ancient Jerusalem. It can also mean purgatory, where a person goes to make right their wrongs. It doesn't last forever, just long enough for the person to reevaluate their choices.

 

However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [in this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other.

Source S.C.J. Faq

 

Second, Hades was actually the lord of the underworld and also the god of worldly wealth in Greek mythology. He is also the brother of Poseidon and Zeus. Such as it is when you merge pagan story's with other pagan story's. There is nothing new under the sun, you follow redone Sun/son worship.

[Ouroboros]

Second, Hades was actually the lord of the underworld and also the god of worldly wealth in Greek mythology. He is also the brother of Poseidon and Zeus. Such as it is when you merge pagan story's with other pagan story's. There is nothing new under the sun, you follow redone Sun/son worship.

Oh, didn't you know the Greek Hades/Hell is a Myth, while Christian Hades/Hell is not!

[GraphicsGuy]

God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever.

 

Why wouldn't he be? The Bible talks about loving your enemy. If God accepts his "enemies" wouldn't that prove he is loving?

 

Why should anyone believe in an ancient book just because IT says it's from God? What if I write a book and say that God dictated it to me and it's from him?

[SWIM]

I am a translator of the Holy Bible from Greek to English as spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever.

 

So miss *translator" tell me then, how you define the term "Unconditional Love"? You are saying god would NOT be rightous if he loved and accepted everyone, whom he also knew in advance would be born and do what they do. (If anyone can see the future, god's your guy right?) Wouldn't he be a sadistic bastard for letting people be *born* knowing they were going to eternal hell? Better to not exist right?

 

Logic please miss translator.

[Mongo]

Well... that was pretty interesting insight into the quality of bible translation.

 

I often marvel at xtian morals such as 'courage' and 'honesty'. When apologists are wrong they disappear rather than display the courage to confess their ignorance.

 

*********

 

For me I feel there is a much more important point to be made on the doctrine of hell.

 

If hell is eternal punishment then isn't it unfair that the hell doctrine is rather obscure?

 

People say that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

So let's assume that god were to remain completely hidden from us and at the end of our lives either rewarded us with heaven or punished us with hell. Well, we'd all go to hell if he did that eh?

 

So instead for the first few thousand years of creation he gives us a some promises of heaven and hands out a lot of arcane rules and says very little about hell.

 

How can he hide that from us for so many thousands of years? That's bollix!

 

No eternal STOP sign in bright red. No eternal, DANGER sign in black lettering on yellow. Just vague suggestions for thousands of years and then finally Jesus comes to town and god decides to ramp it up a notch and scare his people just that much more with a parable of Lazarus and the sinner in hell.

 

But not only that... Jesus doesn't even pen his own firey warnings nor did his disciples. nope... Jesus and the 12 didn't think it was important enough to put such things in writing. Noooooooooo... instead we get clap trap papyrus scraps written by people who probably never met Jesus telling us that it was terribly terribly important to worship god because if you don't you will go to hell.

 

I don't find it a credible scenairo.

 

Mongo

[Jubilant]

Oh, didn't you know the Greek Hades/Hell is a Myth, while Christian Hades/Hell is not!

 

Nuh-uh...Ahuramazda's hell is the only true hell, everything written about hell afterwards is a myth!

[South2003]

God is righteous and God has spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever. The earth is like fire where gold is passed seven times to make it pure. For those who believe, the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the truth. It is up for everyone of us to believe or not to believe.

 

Hey there, can you transulate this back to greek then Hebrew. It might still hold the same meaning. Geezeee.

 

Well... that was pretty interesting insight into the quality of bible translation.

 

Yeah, this gots to be a joke!

[SWIM]

But not only that... Jesus doesn't even pen his own firey warnings nor did his disciples. nope... Jesus and the 12 didn't think it was important enough to put such things in writing. Noooooooooo... instead we get clap trap papyrus scraps written by people who probably never met Jesus telling us that it was terribly terribly important to worship god because if you don't you will go to hell.

 

I don't find it a credible scenairo.

 

Mongo

 

 

That's a really good point. Funny how his line of work was "carpenter" yet there are no wood carvings from him with his wisedom on it. And if you are here to deliver the word of god to the WHOLE WORLD, why be a carpenter at all??? Why not uhmm (drum roll) a *gasp* scribe...

 

That's like going to an important meeting with your reps. about to go to japan and saying at the beginning of the meeting, NO NEED TO TAKE NOTES FOLKS, they will all write down what you said after you leave. Boy! That company is *sure* to seal the deal eh?

[South2003]

Oh my, I can't contain myself anymore. Shit! I think they're coming to get me with the stray jacket...I can't stop laughing

[Ouroboros]

Oh, didn't you know the Greek Hades/Hell is a Myth, while Christian Hades/Hell is not!

 

Nuh-uh...Ahuramazda's hell is the only true hell, everything written about hell afterwards is a myth!

Glory! Another believer!!! Angra Ahriman will have a field day with all those false Christians.

 

Here's yet another angle that is confusing: if God's intention was to let humans have a choice to go to Heaven or Hell, and Free Will was the big deal. Basically it is a big test to see if we want to believe in God or not, and we're rewared if we do, and punished if we don't, then I must ask, Why did God create Satan to tempt us? Why not just create humans, and no angels or demons or devil, but just humans and then tested our dedication? Why did he make it harder on purpose? Only explanation is that he doesn't want anyone to believe, he wants everyone to suffer and fail. So Christianity is just another attempt from God to make a joke out of us... or God just simply doesn't exist.

[SWIM]

Can't believe I actually got an xtian to bite on one of my lion's den posts... GLORY! Wheres Jeff, we need one of his priceless paintings to hang in this thread.

[South2003]

Who woulda thought that after 18 yrs of indoctrination, this hell doctrine would be so laughable.

 

Shooo... can we talk about the The Egyptian Book of the Dead! After all, it contains collection of spells, charms, passwords, numbers and magical formulas for the use of the deceased in the afterlife.

[Oldjew]

As some one asked on this thread; "if I wrote a book, would you believe it was coming from god" or something to that effect.

 

Which does bring up a point; because the bible says so and so, why indeed would anyone believe it was from god?

 

Why could they not believe just as well that some men wrote it and it had nothing to do with any god?

 

And why would they believe it is true over any other religious book?

 

Why this one book in particular?

 

And why would they believe this god to say if people did not believe in him or it and go along with his laws they would be condemned to hell?

 

Why would they even believe that such a god could be good to threaten them with damnation for not believing in him?

 

And why would anyone think such a god is good and not evil?

 

If morality is for the good of all, then it is certainly not for the bad of all, then why would a good god condemn some one merely for the fact some one did not believe in him, be a good god rather than an evil god?

 

And why would anyone believe this god to say Satan was the bad guy while God is the good guy when no where in the bible does Satan make the statement "if you do not believe in me you will be condemned to heaven for all eternity?"

 

And the bible's god throughout threatens hell when the bible's Satan does not.

 

So why would anyone trust such a god over Satan or any other god?

[Mythra]

I find the idea of hell completely repugnant.

 

And I have utter disdain for the pitiful men who thought up the concept (Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek)

 

http://www.bibleorigins.net/hellsorigins.html

[sojourner]

There are a group of folks in the world that believe in God but not eternal torment, I am one of those.

 

I was shocked to find how precious the doctrine of eternal torment is to mainstream christianity when I quit believing in it. Suddenly it was as if I blasphemed God because I came to believe He wasnt some horrible wrathful vengeful tyrant.

 

sojourner

[Mongo]

There are a group of folks in the world that believe in God but not eternal torment, I am one of those.

 

I was shocked to find how precious the doctrine of eternal torment is to mainstream christianity when I quit believing in it. Suddenly it was as if I blasphemed God because I came to believe He wasnt some horrible wrathful vengeful tyrant.

 

sojourner

 

Thanks for adding that perspective.

 

May I ask how you came to believe that?

 

When I was an xtian I never challenged that doctrine although I could see the unfairness of it. Looking deeper into the scriptures though, I find the doctrine of hell a very difficult position to support for several reasons listed in other posts.

 

Mongo

[sojourner]

There are a group of folks in the world that believe in God but not eternal torment, I am one of those.

 

I was shocked to find how precious the doctrine of eternal torment is to mainstream christianity when I quit believing in it. Suddenly it was as if I blasphemed God because I came to believe He wasnt some horrible wrathful vengeful tyrant.

 

sojourner

 

Thanks for adding that perspective.

 

May I ask how you came to believe that?

 

When I was an xtian I never challenged that doctrine although I could see the unfairness of it. Looking deeper into the scriptures though, I find the doctrine of hell a very difficult position to support for several reasons listed in other posts.

 

Mongo

 

Hi Mongo , nice to meet you

 

Well here we go into what will be termed possibly as emotionalism or mysticism but this is how it happened in my life. Id been a christian for many years, when suddenly one night alone in my living room my heart was literally overwhelmed with love for all creation, not just for the select or the elect or for those that thought and looked and acted like me, it was a miracle in my life. For the first time in my life I was actually in love with the entire creation! I cannot explain it any other way but in my own heart and mind I knew that God was nothing like what Id been taught. Many things happened to confirm this belief and its been 7 years now and this belief grows within my spirit and sustains me. Just like some seem to be sustained on the belief there is no God, I am sustained by the belief that God is working in all mankind and behind the scenes passionately in love with every cell in His great creation.

 

I then went to the bible that I had parroted for years and began to see this great belief on every page, because as you might agree, whatever we believe we tend to see everywhere. Id had a great paradigm shift and now all I could see everywhere was this wonderful God working in the midst of sometimes a very chaotic world. Even the worst things that I would hear and see I suddenly saw differently, as temporary sufferings and lacks in us of that great love manifesting in our lives. For if we really grasped this love, we wouldnt hurt each other, we really would love our neighbors as ourselves. But as long as we live in an us and them mentality, as long as we seperate ourselves in our beliefs and thoughts from the rest of mankind or a group then how can we love them as ourselves?

 

we cant

 

truth to me is we are all of one lump. We all have great capicity for evil and good, no exceptions to me. We all are the same. There just isnt a seperate class of folks, the haves and the have nots. In my understanding God is at work in all mankind.

 

I may seem very religious to you all when saying this but speaking for me I feel as if religion is the most repulsive thing there is. Is responsible for almost every war ever fought. Is responsible for most of the hatred and strife in the world. Is responsible for most of the condemnation and shame people feel. I want it all out of me and my hope is that all that will be left is love. I see this love in a good God and in Jesus Christ.

 

to me when the bible talks about a seperation like the sheep and goats, and such, it is speaking about those religious and hateful evil natures that can hide within men being seperated from what they really are to be in their own minds, blinded to the good seed that is within them that is destined to bear the fruit of love for all. Gods seed to me is in everyman, everyman is capable of the greatest good and the deepest love because he is made in Gods image. Likewise because of ignorance of this truth and religion that would tell man otherwise many walk not in who God has created them to be but in a false identity that they have been taught to believe is them. They cant see Him yet within their own being but that doesnt mean He is not there.

 

just my two cents

 

I know many will disagree and thats ok, Im fine with that. I understand by reading what little I have read here that many here see the great good that is within them of human origin and chalk it all up to being human. I simply see it as being God living in mankind, whom are His house, His home and dwelling place.

 

sojourner