The Doctrine Of Hell

[South2003]

On the other hand, if a coach or a father wants to help a young athlete to become strong and a champion, they must bring them to sources of resistence and encourage them to push against pressure and they will grow stronger.

 

And if the son does not want to be an athlete, his father would not burn him in the firey furnance of his oven.

 

YOUR ANALOGY SUCKS!!

[Grandpa Harley]

Satan (which literally means "adversary") is the enemy of man. He is a created being like all others and was created for this purpose in mind.

 

Oh, finally a True Christian spoke the truth! Finally, a fundie does agree that its god created evil as said in Isaiah 45:7

 

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Isn't that a sign of the end of days... 'Yes, God's an ass, but hey, you have to love him because he's GOD dammit!'

 

This is what happens when the largest mental health care providers are the Prisons...

[Grandpa Harley]

On the other hand, if a coach or a father wants to help a young athlete to become strong and a champion, they must bring them to sources of resistence and encourage them to push against pressure and they will grow stronger.

 

And if the son does not want to be an athlete, his father would not burn him in the firey furnance of his oven.

 

YOUR ANALOGY SUCKS!!

 

 

Is it me, or does the God described actually make Darwinian mechanisms seem cuddly... since evolution is is not a 'guided' process...

 

Is the method of Doctor Moreau in this fruit's bible?

 

"His is the House of Pain.

"His is the Hand that makes.

"His is the Hand that wounds.

"His is the Hand that heals."

"His is the lightning flash,

"His is the deep, salt sea."

 

 

"Who breaks the Law--" said Moreau, taking his eyes off his victim, and turning towards us (it seemed to me there was a touch of exultation in his voice).

 

"Goes back to the House of Pain," they all clamoured,--"goes back to the House of Pain, O Master!"

 

"Back to the House of Pain,--back to the House of Pain," gabbled the Ape-man, as though the idea was sweet to him.

[mwc]

Obviously there are many different views out there so I can only give my own. Satan (which literally means "adversary") is the enemy of man. He is a created being like all others and was created for this purpose in mind. He is not opposite and co-equal to God. Nor is he God's enemy that surprised Him through an attempted coup. Jesus said that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning.

This is interesting but what I find even more interesting is the part I placed in bold. I find it so interesting I'll even quote it here "was created for this purpose in mind." This is an rather bold claim (bad pun intended). To know the mind of "god?"

 

I also can't seem to locate any mention from jesus where he claims Satan was "a murderer and a liar from the beginning." Would you be so kind as to provide me a pointer to that?

 

We are being saved from where we have fallen into carnality. God created man with the intention of us becoming in His image and His likeness. But, man was created innocent and unaware of good and evil. This is obviously not in the image of God as He surely understands the depths of both good and evil. So, unlike the way orthodox Christianity teaches it, the fall and man becoming mortal and subject to death was a part of the process of our coming to maturity and becoming like God.

I notice you seem to know "god's" intent once again. Is this just your style of speech? I'd hate to think you're putting words into your "god's" mouth.

 

Of course, while we're in this little section of the bible, I should point out your error. According to the myth we humans were created quite mortal. We were subject to death from day 1. The two ate from the forbidden fruit and were given the bum's rush out of the garden. Then a guard was set in place to keep them out. Why? Well to keep them from gaining access to the "Tree of Life." Had they eaten that tree first then they'd have lived much longer (how long is unknown...perhaps forever or perhaps they would have needed to eat from it regularly to sustain their lives...the myth doesn't say and considering the tree wasn't mentioned until after they were removed from the garden it doesn't seem the "how long" was the important part anyway).

 

The next point is that "god" says in this part of the text (prior to the removal from the garden) that the humans had become like the gods by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and it seemed that the eating from the Tree of Life was the clincher to make us exactly like the gods were (which is the hint that we'd be immortal in the same way they were).

 

So to summarize. We we already "mortal" since we hadn't eaten from the "Tree of Life" and the "Tree of Knowledge" made us exactly like the gods. The only difference is we were kicked out before the Tree of Life was made known to us so we could become like the gods. It seems our error was eating out of order more than anything.

 

Satan and evil and sickness and death and pain etc. are just God's weight machines in this cosmic gym we call life. God desires us to grow up strong and good and spiritual. But to do so, we have to learn about and overcome weakness and evil and carnality. To use a natural example, if a person is bedridden or in a coma, their natural muscles will quickly atrophy and become useless. On the other hand, if a coach or a father wants to help a young athlete to become strong and a champion, they must bring them to sources of resistence and encourage them to push against pressure and they will grow stronger.

If the knowledge of good and evil lead to all these issues and "god" possesses the same knowledge then "god" is subject to all of these problems as well. If he is not, and never has been, then this knowledge is not the cause of these problems. Unless, of course, he is "immune" and this is some sort of "virus" he infected us all with knowing that some of us wouldn't "survive." This makes him quite very evil.

 

God provided Satan and demons and sickness and pain to be overcome by faith as we learn to live by our spirits and the strength of the Kingdom of God within. They are not "of God" in the sense of needing to be accepted, but they are of God in the sense of having been provided to overcome and to grow stronger in the process.

And what is the point of this "growth?" What happens to those who do not "grow?"

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

They die.

[Kratos]

Mythra,

 

First off, Hello, and good to meet you.

 

You will find me not one easily drawn into to debating minutia whether in scripture or otherwise. The Letter of the Law kills and this includes all of the jot and tittle debates over the Bible. It is the spirit of the law that gives life and these are the principles and spiritual realitites that are revealed through the Bible. But, I will answer your questions as I understand them knowing that you can probably tear my answers apart if you are theologian (which I am not).

 

(1) I believe that Acts 22 is where Paul shares his testimony.

 

(2) Paul went directly to a room on the street Straight and waited for God to send him a man to restore his sight.

 

(3) I believe that Paul saw a light and heard a voice.

 

(4) I have no idea when Acts was written.

 

Back to the principle I was relaying that Paul was not a believer and hated and killed Christians, but when He saw Jesus in His glory, he bowed his knee and called Him Lord and asked what Jesus would have him to do. This is saving to the uttermost and is an example of what will happen when He is revealed to all after the resurrection of all. Those who say that all will never willingly bow to the Lord say so based on our not having proof of who He is. When we all see Him as He is, serving Him will be as natural as can be even for the hardest of hearts.

 

It is just serving Him without seeing that is hard or impossible for most.

 

Kratos

[Kratos]

MWC,

 

No one will completely overcome all obstacles or will completely grow up in God in this life. It is a process of the ages. The Bible is predominantly written as an aid to this present age. But, it mentions other ages before Adam and other ages after this one. There could well have been hundreds or millions of ages. Each has its rules and enemies to be overcome and lessons to learn.

 

As I understand it, the Lake of Fire is the place where all who have not overcome in this present age are thrown to continue the process. This is not so far removed from the understanding of Budhism except it does not teach the reincarnation of people into other people in this age or other species. Man is only given one life in this present age, but there are ages to follow. Full salvation of spirit and soul and body is the goal as opposed to "enlightenment", but both reveal a process of being perfected and both acknowledge that this one life is not a one shot or pass/fail test.

 

Kratos

[Grandpa Harley]

Mythra,

 

First off, Hello, and good to meet you.

 

You will find me not one easily drawn into to debating minutia whether in scripture or otherwise. The Letter of the Law kills and this includes all of the jot and tittle debates over the Bible. It is the spirit of the law that gives life and these are the principles and spiritual realitites that are revealed through the Bible. But, I will answer your questions as I understand them knowing that you can probably tear my answers apart if you are theologian (which I am not).

 

(1) I believe that Acts 22 is where Paul shares his testimony.

 

(2) Paul went directly to a room on the street Straight and waited for God to send him a man to restore his sight.

 

(3) I believe that Paul saw a light and heard a voice.

 

(4) I have no idea when Acts was written.

 

Back to the principle I was relaying that Paul was not a believer and hated and killed Christians, but when He saw Jesus in His glory, he bowed his knee and called Him Lord and asked what Jesus would have him to do. This is saving to the uttermost and is an example of what will happen when He is revealed to all after the resurrection of all. Those who say that all will never willingly bow to the Lord say so based on our not having proof of who He is. When we all see Him as He is, serving Him will be as natural as can be even for the hardest of hearts.

It is just serving Him without seeing that is hard or impossible for most.

 

Kratos

 

In Red - Translation "I've a passim knowledge of the bible, but I've only read the Message."

 

In Olive - Translation "you can probably tear them apart if you're not a theologian"

 

Blue - Random Christianese jibber-jabber...

 

Purple - insane closing statement...

[Grandpa Harley]

MWC,

 

No one will completely overcome all obstacles or will completely grow up in God in this life. It is a process of the ages. The Bible is predominantly written as an aid to this present age. But, it mentions other ages before Adam and other ages after this one. There could well have been hundreds or millions of ages. Each has its rules and enemies to be overcome and lessons to learn.

 

As I understand it, the Lake of Fire is the place where all who have not overcome in this present age are thrown to continue the process. This is not so far removed from the understanding of Budhism except it does not teach the reincarnation of people into other people in this age or other species. Man is only given one life in this present age, but there are ages to follow. Full salvation of spirit and soul and body is the goal as opposed to "enlightenment", but both reveal a process of being perfected and both acknowledge that this one life is not a one shot or pass/fail test.

 

Kratos

 

Crack smoking...

[South2003]

[

Eventually, again according to the Bible and my beliefs, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. So all will be christians.

 

I wish you would read the entire book, Romans 14:1-23 , and realize the chapter says. Paul was rebuking the church for being judgemental towards others. Go on, read it all for yourself. Very clever indeed for you to state the above as if to indicte some anilation of our mental facalties to where we will drop everything, bow and confess to you mindfuck delusions. Trying to push your agenda? Cunning as a fox.

[Kratos]

[

Eventually, again according to the Bible and my beliefs, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. So all will be christians.

 

I wish you would read the entire book, Romans 14:1-23 , and realize the chapter says. Paul was rebuking the church for being judgemental towards others. Go on, read it all for yourself. Very clever indeed for you to state the above as if to indicte some anilation of our mental facalties to where we will drop everything, bow and confess to you mindfuck delusions. Trying to push your agenda? Cunning as a fox.

 

South,

 

I still do not know where all of the anger comes from. I am just answering questions posed to me by other posters. I have read the whole book many times and have taught out of it for over 20 years. I do not expect self-professed non-christians to know the Bible, but there is no need to name-call and accuse me of not knowing what it says.

 

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

These verses were spoken of Jesus. And below is the OT scriptures that they were quoting and revealing were attributed to Him:

 

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

So, disagree as to the truth of scripture if you like and claim it is just a man-made book if you like. But, trying to make these verses say something other than what they say is just a red herring maneuver. Orthodox Christianity does not even believe their own scriptures because they are so in love with the idea of the "bad people" roasting forever. But the truth of the Bible is (if you can accept it) is that God has sworn by Himself regardless of what man thinks that everyone will look to Him and be saved by bowing the knee and swearing allegience to Christ. This will not be forced, but totally voluntary when He is fully revealed in an age to come. God will be all in all through Christ.

 

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

Now, you tell me why the ALL who died in Adam is different to the ALL who are saved in Christ in the same verse? And, why is Jesus the Savior of all men and especially those who believe instead of only those who believe? Christianity as it is taught today is not consistent with scripture because Greek and Roman and Egyptian mythology of an eternal Hell has been mingled in and it has made God out to be mean and vengeful like the imperfect Greek and Roman and Egyptian gods.

 

My only agenda is to expose the religious traditions that have perverted the Word of God and defamed the character of my Father. You all can do with it what you like. I have no agenda toward you, but just toward the truth.

 

Kratos

[mwc]

No one will completely overcome all obstacles or will completely grow up in God in this life. It is a process of the ages. The Bible is predominantly written as an aid to this present age. But, it mentions other ages before Adam and other ages after this one. There could well have been hundreds or millions of ages. Each has its rules and enemies to be overcome and lessons to learn.

Reincarnation?

Multiple "planes" of existence?

 

You're sure reading a lot into a little story. While you're reading all that in you may as well read in that there are other gods higher up the god ladder than your god. Marcion figured this out (at least for one additional god...perhaps with a little more time he could have reasoned more).

 

As I understand it, the Lake of Fire is the place where all who have not overcome in this present age are thrown to continue the process. This is not so far removed from the understanding of Budhism except it does not teach the reincarnation of people into other people in this age or other species. Man is only given one life in this present age, but there are ages to follow. Full salvation of spirit and soul and body is the goal as opposed to "enlightenment", but both reveal a process of being perfected and both acknowledge that this one life is not a one shot or pass/fail test.

The "Lake of Fire" is Egyptian. I saw what you wrote in your response to South2003 about how the "church" corrupted things by adding in, among others, Egyptian teachings about "hell" and whatnot. Are you certain you wish to pursue this further or do you wish to adjust your beliefs accordingly?

 

As for "full salvation of spirit and soul and body..." doesn't really mean anything to anyone but you. You'll have to define "salvation" first of all.

 

A couple more nits and I'm finished. You seemed to miss the rest of my post.

 

Also, again something I spotted in your response to South2003, you seemed to make a point...well why don't I just find it? Here it is:

I do not expect self-professed non-christians to know the Bible, but there is no need to name-call and accuse me of not knowing what it says.

Remember we are currently non-xians but we are also ex-xians. Notice the EX part. As I stated before I was a xian for over 30 years before going apostate and I am not unique here. This is not a never believed ever forum this is a once believed and gave it up forum. We know the bible. We expect xians who come here to know it too and not just say "The bible says..." or "Jesus says..." and expect us to swallow it whole. We don't accept the bible as god's given word but we do know when we're being fed a load of crap from the book and we use the book to point it out. We have no problem using xians' own authority against them but it's not like we care about that "authority" ourselves. Kind of like expecting someone in a different country or state to follow their own rules but not following those rules in your home country or state (they don't apply where I live...although xians seem to think their rules cross borders and follow me even when I leave their crummy land but it doesn't matter because I still don't follow their rules).

 

mwc

[Jun]

As I understand it, the Lake of Fire is the place where all who have not overcome in this present age are thrown to continue the process. This is not so far removed from the understanding of Buddhism except it does not teach the reincarnation of people into other people in this age or other species. Man is only given one life in this present age..........

 

Just so you know oh Christian one, Buddhism does NOT teach reincarnation, especially of people into other people. You can do a search for my previous posts on this topic for more clarification.

 

I still do not know where all of the anger comes from.

 

Some here - I dare say almost all - were indoctrinated into your filthy religion as children, with no choice but to obey the instructions of their parents and teachers. Childhood religious indoctrination is child abuse. Children have a human right not to have their minds crippled by exposure to other people's delusions. Parents have no right to limit the horizons of their children's knowledge with supernatural tales and folk-stories. I would suggest that many are still angry at their parents and teachers (and all Christians) for allowing this mental torture, this atmosphere of dogma and superstition. Children have a right not to have their minds confused by nonsense.

 

Some are also angry at the demands of Christians that their fictions be forced on those of us who can see through it's lies. The Christian demands that the man-in-the-sky doctrine be enforced through law, and taught in school. This smacks in the face of those of us who can see through the veils of superstition and subtle control.

[crazy-tiger]

I wonder if Kratos is ignoring me...

[Kratos]

I wonder if Kratos is ignoring me...

 

Crazy-Tiger,

 

I am sorry as I did not intend to ignore anyone. It is a little like meeting a room full of people who know each other already. They only need to learn one new name, but you have too many to remember. LOL

 

I went pack several pages to see if I had missed a question by you and found that you asked if I knew that some people think Paul added to the Bible or something? I have heard this before and know that even Thomas Jefferson held to this belief. I do not believe this way. I believe that Paul was inspired to write what he did as were the other Bible authors.

 

I do believe that much of our problems and Biblical inconsistencies that we see can be traced to the "scribes" or translators that had an agenda other than pure scholoarship.

 

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely. (RV)

 

Jesus constantly rebuked the scribes and Pharisees. Yet, many know the problem with Pharisees, but ignore the problems that could be caused by the false pens of translators owned by denominations with an agenda to preserve the status quo of the Christian ruling class.

 

Kratos

[Kratos]

Jun,

 

You say that the anger that I keep sensing is due to ex-Christians being mad at parents and teachers and all Christians for subjecting them to the mental torture of Christianity. Can you tell me, other than the Hell teaching which I have said many times that I do not believe in as Biblical, how Christianity causes mental torment? I mean, if it is just Hell and the whole eternal torment thing, then there should be no anger toward me since I agree that it is a myth and should not be propagated to others.

 

Kratos

[Grandpa Harley]

[

Eventually, again according to the Bible and my beliefs, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. So all will be christians.

 

I wish you would read the entire book, Romans 14:1-23 , and realize the chapter says. Paul was rebuking the church for being judgemental towards others. Go on, read it all for yourself. Very clever indeed for you to state the above as if to indicte some anilation of our mental facalties to where we will drop everything, bow and confess to you mindfuck delusions. Trying to push your agenda? Cunning as a fox.

 

South,

 

I still do not know where all of the anger comes from. I am just answering questions posed to me by other posters. I have read the whole book many times and have taught out of it for over 20 years. I do not expect self-professed non-christians to know the Bible, but there is no need to name-call and accuse me of not knowing what it says.

Eusebius' selected blather excised

So, disagree as to the truth of scripture if you like and claim it is just a man-made book if you like. But, trying to make these verses say something other than what they say is just a red herring maneuver. Orthodox Christianity does not even believe their own scriptures because they are so in love with the idea of the "bad people" roasting forever. But the truth of the Bible is (if you can accept it) is that God has sworn by Himself regardless of what man thinks that everyone will look to Him and be saved by bowing the knee and swearing allegience to Christ. This will not be forced, but totally voluntary when He is fully revealed in an age to come. God will be all in all through Christ.

 

more Eusebius' selected blather excised

Now, you tell me why the ALL who died in Adam is different to the ALL who are saved in Christ in the same verse? And, why is Jesus the Savior of all men and especially those who believe instead of only those who believe? Christianity as it is taught today is not consistent with scripture because Greek and Roman and Egyptian mythology of an eternal Hell has been mingled in and it has made God out to be mean and vengeful like the imperfect Greek and Roman and Egyptian gods.

 

My only agenda is to expose the religious traditions that have perverted the Word of God and defamed the character of my Father. You all can do with it what you like. I have no agenda toward you, but just toward the truth.

Kratos

 

Well that proved that Kratos can't keep his own story straight since

 

Mythra,

 

First off, Hello, and good to meet you.

 

You will find me not one easily drawn into to debating minutia whether in scripture or otherwise. The Letter of the Law kills and this includes all of the jot and tittle debates over the Bible. It is the spirit of the law that gives life and these are the principles and spiritual realitites that are revealed through the Bible.But, I will answer your questions as I understand them knowing that you can probably tear my answers apart if you are theologian (which I am not).

 

Was just proved a lie.

 

As to the purple prose... Well, let's just say I've heard 'I'm not selling anything' from cold callers who then try and sell me double glazing or a new kitchen too many times to take that comment at anything like face value...

 

Tell me Kratos, why do you have so much faith in the Councils of Nicaea and Trentino and a bunch of power hungry Catholic Bishops?

[Jun]

Jun,

 

You say that the anger that I keep sensing is due to ex-Christians being mad at parents and teachers and all Christians for subjecting them to the mental torture of Christianity. Can you tell me, other than the Hell teaching which I have said many times that I do not believe in as Biblical, how Christianity causes mental torment? I mean, if it is just Hell and the whole eternal torment thing, then there should be no anger toward me since I agree that it is a myth and should not be propagated to others.

 

Kratos

 

As for any anger that you may have percieved here, I can tell you that as far as I know (from conversing with them for some time) any hostility shown would be limited to words.

 

Can you tell me................... how Christianity causes mental torment?

 

Let's see:

 

1. Priestly sexual abuse of children

2. Protection of said pedophiles by the church

3. The forced indoctrination of children into the Christ cult - the forced belief in a punishment of eternal hell for "sins."

4. The teaching that if you are gay you are an abomination unto "God" and should be stoned, shunned, or "exorcised" of the evil of being a mammal with the same sexual urges as most other primates.

5. The whipping, striking, beating of children by priests and nuns in "Christian" schools in the name of "Christian indoctrination."

 

For a child the metaphorical hell-fire and brimestone is actually very real. These images can be very damaging to developing minds.

 

Perhaps you should read through some of the stories of those here that have deconverted from the perverse belief in your deity.

 

Teaching children to rely on a mythical supernatural entity rather than themselves should not be propagated.

[crazy-tiger]

I wonder if Kratos is ignoring me...

 

Crazy-Tiger,

 

I am sorry as I did not intend to ignore anyone. It is a little like meeting a room full of people who know each other already. They only need to learn one new name, but you have too many to remember. LOL

 

I went pack several pages to see if I had missed a question by you and found that you asked if I knew that some people think Paul added to the Bible or something?

Why do people assume it's only the questions that are referenced to in this circumstance?

 

For your information, I was refering to this post... http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...mp;#entry316361

I have heard this before and know that even Thomas Jefferson held to this belief. I do not believe this way. I believe that Paul was inspired to write what he did as were the other Bible authors.

Yes, you would... even though almost everything that Paul wrote was the opposite of the Gospels?

 

Oh yes, Paul goes on about how you don't have to follow the dietary restrictions, the bodily rituals, the sacrifices, the commandments... all that crap was thrown out by Paul, yet the Gospels repeatedly show that they are still to be followed. He added a huge amount to the Bible...

I do believe that much of our problems and Biblical inconsistencies that we see can be traced to the "scribes" or translators that had an agenda other than pure scholoarship.

 

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely. (RV)

 

Jesus constantly rebuked the scribes and Pharisees. Yet, many know the problem with Pharisees, but ignore the problems that could be caused by the false pens of translators owned by denominations with an agenda to preserve the status quo of the Christian ruling class.

 

Kratos

Woah... we have fragments that are from way before there was any Christian ruling class... and the same inconsistances were already there! If you want to blame a group with an agenda, fine... just don't try to blame them for things that happened over 200 years before they even existed!

[Kratos]

Crazy-Tiger,

 

I went back and looked at your link and we reamain the same. I will not believe in Australia until I make the trip and see it with my own eyes. You wil not believe in God until you make the trip after death and see with your own eyes. So, we remain in the same place. I will continue to believe in God and not in Australia and you will continue to believe in Australia and not in God. No problem.

 

As far as Paul, I believe that he was ordained of God to add what He did to the understanding of the progressive revealing of God and you do not. Again, no problem.

 

Kratos

[Kratos]

Jun,

 

The things you are angry with are all the things that men did in the name of Christianity and not Chrsitianity itself. But, you can blame Christianity on the failures of men if you like. Let me ask you though, if you find that a pedophile was Irish would you hate all Irish? If you found that a teacher who spanked students was a redhead, would you say there is a problem with redheads?

 

Kratos

[Jedah]

The day Christians understand why they dont feel extremist muslims are justified in killing them for being non-muslim, is the day they realize why their own doctrine is a failure that could never have been written by an intelligent being... much less a god.

[Grandpa Harley]

Jun,

 

The things you are angry with are all the things that men did in the name of Christianity and not Chrsitianity itself. But, you can blame Christianity on the failures of men if you like. Let me ask you though, if you find that a pedophile was Irish would you hate all Irish? If you found that a teacher who spanked students was a redhead, would you say there is a problem with redheads?

 

Kratos

 

By your fruits ye shall know them, arse hole...

[crazy-tiger]

Crazy-Tiger,

 

I went back and looked at your link and we reamain the same. I will not believe in Australia until I make the trip and see it with my own eyes. You wil not believe in God until you make the trip after death and see with your own eyes. So, we remain in the same place. I will continue to believe in God and not in Australia and you will continue to believe in Australia and not in God. No problem.

And the part of it where I very nicely proved that the God you believe in cannot exist?

 

The problem is, you're believing in something that CANNOT be verified in any way, shape or form without dying, (at which point it's too late to do anything with that knowledge) for which there is no evidence at all except a contradictory book that is known to contain deliberately false information, (look up "Pious Fraud" sometime...) while also not believing in something that is verifiable in many different ways and that requires you to believe that all the information/evidence (of which there are mountains) is all false and lies.

 

You are holding your belief to a much lower standard of "proof" than reality, and that is why your argument fails... and why trying to defend it only shows you're not wanting to know the truth, just what makes you "comfortable"

 

 

But hey, if you fancy believing that which doesn't exist... go right ahead.

As far as Paul, I believe that he was ordained of God to add what He did to the understanding of the progressive revealing of God and you do not. Again, no problem.

 

Kratos

The God Paul reveals is the one that uses Hell... If that God is one you don't believe in, then Paul wrote was wrong. By believing that Paul wrote what God wanted him to write, then you do, in fact, believe in a God that uses Hell to punish those who he doesn't like.

 

Paul also wrote that we should be celebate, since the Day of Judgement was at hand and that generation shouldn't be defiled... well, it's over 1900 years later and we're still waiting! Guess he got that wrong too, hmm?

[Jun]

Jun,

 

The things you are angry with are all the things that men did in the name of Christianity and not Chrsitianity itself. But, you can blame Christianity on the failures of men if you like. Let me ask you though, if you find that a pedophile was Irish would you hate all Irish? If you found that a teacher who spanked students was a redhead, would you say there is a problem with redheads?

 

Kratos

 

I didn't say I was angry at anyone for any reason. Anger is no longer a part of my life, it fell away long ago. I was just answering your question as to why some here were possibly angry.

 

Let me ask you though, if you find that a pedophile was Irish would you hate all Irish?

 

Try telling that to a ten year old child traumatized by such treatment, stupid.

 

...........men did in the name of Christianity and not Chrsitianity itself.

 

The church of Christianity is in support of this behaviour. The very "men of God" of your religion are the perpetrators, and your "God" is silent on the issue.

 

BTW, you do believe in a sky-daddy that you can't see, hear, or feel - but you don't believe in a place that you can see and visit? What's wrong with you?