sojourner Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Ok I wont run off and go wild with that cause somehow I suspect my category is probably not all that grand either lol sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 It's improving... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Ok I wont run off and go wild with that cause somehow I suspect my category is probably not all that grand either lol sojourner Take it from someone who has read many of GH's posts, that was a glowing compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 BTW soj. you may not care, but my opinion of you is improving. Not that it matters, but since we are being all nice and stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sal1981 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Most of you have at least proven one area of the Bible and the words of Jesus as the truth. He said that we should never cast our pearls before swine or they will turn on us and rend us with it. I shared with you my most intimate experiences and you trample them underfoot as nothing. This is a great paradigm difference between secularists and (dogmatic) believers. For believers there are things to them that are "sacred", which does not exist in a secularism. What does sacred mean? It's a very useful euphemism for: "This is stuff you're not allowed to question." That, my friends, is the greatest stop-gap for believers, because as long as they don't question their faith, don't try to search for validity, don't question, will be as long enough to guarantee them enslaved to their mind-virus. When atheists say "read your own Bible" or something to that effect, it's actually a request to believers to question their faith, to investigate. I will not continue to draw you into blasheming against the Holy things of God. Oh, is your god so fragile that it cannot withstand blasphemy? It is obvious that God is better at following His own admonition than I am as He has chosen to hide from you His true riches. All that talk about welcoming arms are just empty promises then? Besides, this poses a problem, why would god "hide" from anything? Are we supposed to play along and try to look for him, does he hide under the rocks and sand? If all I had ever experienced was religion and the words in a book, I would have left it behind long ago. I am sorry that you have never really met Jesus ( no I did not say believe in Christianity) or that you have never heard the voice of God. Jesus said that His sheep would know His voice and anyone who has never heard this voice was never His sheep, but only a convert to a religion. You fail to realize that many people here, if not most, are apostates. I at one time in my life truly believed, and I went through, as all apostates I'm sure did, a process of shedding those beliefs. Not by design, just as the consequence of realizing the inconsistencies, to realize what a cop-out faith is, a lie. To believers, faith is a virtue - to believe things there is no evidence of - that is nothing more than lying to oneself, just because I believe something to be true, does not make it so, and that is something believers willfully deny outright. Some day, you will all know that my words were true and that this could have been a fruitful discussion had you been able to discuss with others of differing experiences as adult co-citizens of this big, blue marble Apply your lesson to yourself and practice what you preach - but I'm positive that your mind is closed and you have no wish to question your beliefs or to find truth. You only wish to have your beliefs recognized by those who would not do so lightly, and you've failed so, which leaves you with resentment. instead of treating them as nothing with no validity in their life. You have not harmed me one bit. You have only dimished yourselves by letting your pride exalt yourselves too far above others to learn what they have to teach you. Socrates said that every man is my teacher, but he was just another old dead guy, right? That is a two-way street. BTW, those who ask for civility, in my experience, are the same who ask for credulity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Most of you have at least proven one area of the Bible and the words of Jesus as the truth. He said that we should never cast our pearls before swine or they will turn on us and rend us with it. I shared with you my most intimate experiences and you trample them underfoot as nothing. Oink? If pigs suck at picking out things of value then explain truffles... The bible also says pigs are stupid (not a quote) for covering themselves with mud but considering they must do that or die (since they don't sweat) it seems the bible is rather ignorant when it comes to our good, and tasty, friend the pig. It just seems pigs don't find any value in pearls. Imagine that. Why would they? Perhaps jesus should have thrown something of value to the pigs and then they would have went for it? Seems the problem was with jesus and not the pigs. But I guess in his all-knowing arrogance jesus expected the pigs to simply want whatever he threw even though he "created" them without a need or desire for pearls. Jesus/god gets more and more retarded the more xians talk. Please don't leave us. I will not continue to draw you into blasheming against the Holy things of God. It is obvious that God is better at following His own admonition than I am as He has chosen to hide from you His true riches. If all I had ever experienced was religion and the words in a book, I would have left it behind long ago. I am sorry that you have never really met Jesus ( no I did not say believe in Christianity) or that you have never heard the voice of God. Jesus said that His sheep would know His voice and anyone who has never heard this voice was never His sheep, but only a convert to a religion. I've heard jesus' voice. It sounds like this: "Aggghhhhh!!!! Those fucking nails hurt!!!!" (in Aramaic of course). It was followed up by "My Me My Me why have I forsaken Me?" See? Even he stopped listening to himself. Socrates said that every man is my teacher, but he was just another old dead guy, right? Holy shit! Are you saying you are an old dead guy??? Is that what "Kratos" means? "Preachy Corpse?" mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 ouch guys, I hope I never really tick you off around here thanks Michael, my view of athiests and agnostics and whatever labels are used around here is forming as we speak........cause unlike you all I have little experiance with folks that believe as you do, next to none at all! Once you get beyond the sometimes gruff exteriors of some around here, I find people with brains and hearts, go figure, more human beings lol sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Ok I wont run off and go wild with that cause somehow I suspect my category is probably not all that grand either lol sojourner Take it from someone who has read many of GH's posts, that was a glowing compliment. Looking over it, I do believe it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 ok someone might have to pick me up off the floor (fainting smilie inserted here) Grandpa I just knew you had a big heart, might be big enough for me too, never can tell sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 As long as the inner voice that I hear lines up with the Word, I will continue to know it as the voice of God. The fact that you have never heard His voice does not provide any proof that I have not. Maybe you are just jealous and for that I am sorry. OH MY GOD! Could this clown be more out of touch with reality? JEALOUS because we wish we could live in a similar delusion-land? :lmao: Ah fuck that was rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 You all have demonstrated throughout that you have no concern for my feelings or my thoughts, but for my conscience sake I need to clear the air. I have no expectation that any will accept this, but I need to say it. I wrongly assumed that your claims of being ex-Christians would cause you to understand what Jesus was saying about pearls and swine. He was not calling anyone pigs and neither was I. His point was to admonish His followers to be aware of to whom you are speaking and to speak accordingly. There is nothing wrong with pigs having no respect for pearls because they are pigs and this is just their nature. I should have been more sensitive to whom I was speaking and realize that self-declared apostates would have no respect for spiritual experiences. How could they. This is not a criticism, but just their nature. I should have just refused to answer the question of how I know that God is real instead of just believe that He is. I should have just stayed silent instead of sharing my experiences. This was my error and no one else's fault, but my own. I was confessing my error for not obeying the Bible. I shared things that those who do not believe in God could do nothing but mock. As I result, I was called insane and schizophrenic and compared to serial killers etc. What else did I expect here? Those who know and love God rejoice to hear of His appearing and of His words spoken. But, to expect anything but unkind derision from apostates was foolish of me. I was the one in error. So, I wish the best for all of you along your journey. I truly am sorry for sharing what is near and dear to my heart and for getting offended when I reaped the just reward of my ignorance and insensitivity. Transparency has often been my enemy. I need to learn more subtlty and watch my words more carefully. Blessings, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Run along now and obey your holy book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 So, I wish the best for all of you along your journey. And you as well, Kratos. Come back in 30 years and and then tell us all about your undying love for Jesus and how you are such a chosen one that God speaks to you personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 You all have demonstrated throughout that you have no concern for my feelings or my thoughts, but for my conscience sake I need to clear the air. I have no expectation that any will accept this, but I need to say it. I wrongly assumed that your claims of being ex-Christians would cause you to understand what Jesus was saying about pearls and swine. He was not calling anyone pigs and neither was I. His point was to admonish His followers to be aware of to whom you are speaking and to speak accordingly. There is nothing wrong with pigs having no respect for pearls because they are pigs and this is just their nature. I should have been more sensitive to whom I was speaking and realize that self-declared apostates would have no respect for spiritual experiences. How could they. This is not a criticism, but just their nature. I thought I pretty much nailed the whole pearls/swine thing. "Jesus" does mention hypocrisy just prior to saying this: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Then he talks about seeking and finding...so on and so forth. Seems to me we're the metaphorical dogs/swine. Now we've trampled your pearls and, well, it's kind of obvious what comes next. Of course dogs/swine were the unclean animals of the day and often a reference to Gentiles or Samaritans or whatnot. No matter this isn't a "polite" statement. As for being "self-declared apostates" is there another kind? Is there a formal process I need to go through that I'm not aware of? I should have just refused to answer the question of how I know that God is real instead of just believe that He is. I should have just stayed silent instead of sharing my experiences. This was my error and no one else's fault, but my own. Your error was thinking this would elicit a different response. That you would be the first person to say something like this to us. That you are somehow unique. Your testimony is only powerful in your own circle. Let me remind of another character who went around doing wonders. Then he went to a place and people had little to no faith in him. He couldn't perform tricks there so he did what little he could and left. That was the story of the mythical jesus in his home town. Maybe your act works better elsewhere. I was confessing my error for not obeying the Bible. I shared things that those who do not believe in God could do nothing but mock. As I result, I was called insane and schizophrenic and compared to serial killers etc. What else did I expect here? Those who know and love God rejoice to hear of His appearing and of His words spoken. But, to expect anything but unkind derision from apostates was foolish of me. I was the one in error. We mock what we understand all too well. My grandfather saw jesus in a vision. He's dead now. He died not believing he was going to heaven but in a state where he reverted back to childhood where he was back on the farm of his youth with his brothers and sisters. That kicks the shit out of heaven and I hope that's where he is if it's possible to "go" anywhere. The bible did nothing to "comfort" or "help" him in the last hours of his life when it was supposed to. He made no mention of "god" or "jesus." Nothing. Just his family from when he was growing up. Tore my heart out that he had no clue who I was but in his "world" I hadn't even been born yet (he only knew my grandmother outside his own family circle) so it was a pardonable "crime." Now what was it you were saying about "god" and "visions" and all that shit? That they're something unique to you and that we wouldn't respect people that had them? You underestimate us I'm afraid. I respect my grandfather to this day. The problem is I happen to know that the "vision" that my grandfather had was akin to Saul's on the road to Damascus. Very powerful stuff. It was a conversion miracle. And yet it didn't mean shit in the end. Only those people who had really existed to this devout Christian man ultimately mattered. People matter. Not visions. Not myths. Not stories in a book. Any book. So, I wish the best for all of you along your journey. I truly am sorry for sharing what is near and dear to my heart and for getting offended when I reaped the just reward of my ignorance and insensitivity. Transparency has often been my enemy. I need to learn more subtlty and watch my words more carefully. Your transparency was not the problem. You came here believing that you knew something we did not. You came to educate us. I hesitate to call it arrogance as that would simply cause you to deny it. You've done nothing but claim that we never knew "jesus" but were simply participants in "church." Ironically, one of Paul's duties was to establish the church (as was Peter's, James' and Johns') but I'm sure we are in error in our understanding of that as well. Basically it seems you came here to tell us we got it all wrong and you are going to tell us how to get it all right. Then you were going to use your example to justify how you can tell us all that. Your "connection" to the divine (for lack of a better phrase). We didn't go for it and now you are going to act hurt and go away. Maybe you should have asked us if we were looking for a "leader" or "teacher" before putting yourself in that position? It would have made things go a lot smoother. Maybe transparency really is your enemy? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 your right mwc about its people that matter! When its all said and done if what we believe doesnt draw us closer to that knowing it has done us little good. And not just closer to a select group either. imo Was it alzheimers that he went thru? It sounds like that. My heart goes out to you, I know a lady that her husband died from that and it breaks my heart to hear her describe what all they went thru. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 your right mwc about its people that matter! When its all said and done if what we believe doesnt draw us closer to that knowing it has done us little good. And not just closer to a select group either. imo Was it alzheimers that he went thru? It sounds like that. My heart goes out to you, I know a lady that her husband died from that and it breaks my heart to hear her describe what all they went thru. Thanks. No, he ultimately died from cancer. The treatments took their toll and I had to watch a very strong man brought to a childlike state a result. My sister watched him die. I do not envy her. Obviously these stories play out for lots of folks so I'm not fishing for sympathy. I used it to illustrate the point that I personally knew a man that had a conversion vision of jesus...but ultimately...so? His family brought peace in the end...not jesus. Jesus only mattered when he was well enough for his brain to work on the story but when "free running" his mind went to what it wanted and that was his family of his youth. I think that, being his last thought, is sort of "frozen" in time. His heaven. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Your error was thinking this would elicit a different response. That you would be the first person to say something like this to us. That you are somehow unique. You nailed it here, mwc. Makes you wonder what the guy expected he would encounter in a forum designed to help people who are working their ass off to escape the clutches of religion. How naive. Makes you wonder also, how long he's been a christian. Seems like the only ones who are totally rabid for Jesus are newbies or goof-balls like Troy who slipped a cog mentally somewhere along the way. It takes time to figure out that all is not as it first seems in the Land of God. Faiths have a way of mellowing out if you don't question too much - and fading away if you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 mwc, My father-in-law is dying in Texas now of cancer and I flew down to see him last week. He has seen many of his family members in dreams and visions including my nephew who died in my home of cancer 5 years ago. It is hard to watch. He is a Christian, but family is what matters at these times. I really did not come here to convert anyone as I gave that up years ago. I just wanted to understand you all. Some of the posters here kept insisting that there are no concrete experiences that prove out Christianity as real and this is why I shared my real experiences that are beyond just belief in a holy book. You are the one who said maybe that you are not supposed to know God now and I agreed. I found myself on the defensive concerning the truths that I hold dear in my life. Your beliefs are your own and none of my business. I never called any of you insane or arse holes for your beliefs. I respected them though they are admitedly not my own experiences. I don't really understand why the fact that family is important when dying proves no God or no Heaven, but I do appreciate you sharing your life. My idea of Heaven is far from orthodox, but that does not matter either. It seems what to me was defending what I believe appeared to you as trying to attack your beliefs. I acknowledged that if all I had was a belief and an old book I would probably be on your side of this issue. My "road to Damascus" experience is what it took for me to believe. That is all. I was never one to believe anything without proof and God knew that and gave me what I needed. Jesus said to Thomas that the ones who believe without seeing are the more blessed so my testimony is not one of superior Christianity, but of a hard-hearted unbeliever who would have taken his own life if Jesus had not entered my room that day. These are the facts as I know them. They are not given to convice anyone else. But, I cannot lie just to fit in. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 My "road to Damascus" experience is what it took for me to believe. You will never get anywhere on this forum unless you come to realize that we were just as sincere in our faith as you are now. I had a "road to Damascus" experience as well. Lots of us did. You think we were just pew-sitters? You really have absolutely no idea. I'd tell you all about it, but I don't cast pearls before swine either. I guarantee it would shake up your neat little world of faith if you really knew the truth. That at one time we were you. And, through a variety of different struggles, we all came to a different conclusion about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well it is very new to me to be in a room full of people where most all really dislike what I believe in and is teaching me alot. I very quickly realized that no one here is interested in what I believe as in they arent searching and it would be silly to think I was brought here to change anyones mind. So then I had to ask myself what was I brought here for because I very much felt drawn to come back over and over. And I believe at this time, that it is because I sincerely want to understand people and be a part of others lives even when they are so different than I am. Im tired of living my life with just friends that talk just like me, believe just like me and such. I love them very much but life is more than that. And I love learning, searching and I am finding there is so much to learn from these folks. Even my husband is noticing a change in me. This place has changed me for the better in just a short time. If I went up to the folks that attend the church my husband works at and shared what Ive learned here and how its changed me they probably would be like, wow, that is awesome, till I mentioned where I learned it and by whom. Then the crap would hit the fan. I find that so sad and I intend to live my life honest, if I get the chance to share what is happening in me I will and deal with the fall out then. But the point is, I believe all mankind is like a garden, and Im going digging and nothing any longer is going to hold me back! For some reason the anger and such here has not had a negative effect on me and I think its because I am supposed to be here, its like Antlerman said , when you are ready it will come to you. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well it is very new to me to be in a room full of people where most all really dislike what I believe in I'll just speak for myself here. I don't dislike what you believe in. Not at all. In fact, I would love to have similar beliefs. What great hope that would hold for all of humankind. What an utter improvement when compared to the dark religion of pain and suffering in which 9 out of every 10 people on the face of the earth are destined to suffer unspeakable horror for all eternity. And your beliefs portray a god that is truly a god of love and compassion. I think your beliefs are wonderful. But I also think there isn't a shred of credible evidence to even hint that they represent reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Mythra You make me smile and I can just picture that mischevious grin lol we will see and some day when its proven I was right about a good God Im going to give you the same smirk and say I told you so sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 We mock what we understand all too well. This little line is going right in as my siggy quote for a while. I like that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 we will see and some day when its proven I was right about a good God Im going to give you the same smirk and say I told you so Better say it now. In my world, nobody tells or hears after they're caput. But it would be very cool if I were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 My "road to Damascus" experience is what it took for me to believe. You will never get anywhere on this forum unless you come to realize that we were just as sincere in our faith as you are now. I had a "road to Damascus" experience as well. Lots of us did. You think we were just pew-sitters? You really have absolutely no idea. I'd tell you all about it, but I don't cast pearls before swine either. I guarantee it would shake up your neat little world of faith if you really knew the truth. That at one time we were you. And, through a variety of different struggles, we all came to a different conclusion about things. Mythra, I learned very quickly that many here were not "pew sitters" before you changed your beliefs. But, in every large group there are represented many varying beliefs and experiences. You say that you also had a "road to Damascus" experience, but some other posters here deny the possibility that either Paul or I could have really seen and heard from the Lord. I am sorry for generalizing with my answers, but many posters have indicated that all they believed was based on religious tradition and an ancient "holy book". The fact that some of you had seen and heard from the Lord as I did in person does make me stop to ponder. I do not know what could happen to cause a person to deny an experience as opposed to just changing their beliefs. I will have to think about this more. You are right that I assumed that all of you had never had such a tangible and miraculous experience. It was a life changing experience for me and I have never been the same and this was 24 years ago. I think to deny it was real would be to deny myself. God is such a tangible part of who I am. Much to ponder. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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