Theodicy

[sojourner]

This is a question I wanted to ask as theodicy is such a hard topic for me. I have looked at the existance of evil and a good God and it does not make sense no matter what angle I see it from. This is my major area of wrestling.

 

I wondered if it figured into your deconversions and what ways you wrestled with it if it did?

 

 

sojourner

[sojourner]

Thought to share an article I ran across today that just spurred my question on this forum.

 

http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/god-and-suffering/

 

Just wondered if Ehrman’s experiance is a common one amongst those that deconvert. As I know I certainly struggle with it.

 

sojourner

[Kuroikaze]

I was very into apologetic arguments so I certainly thought a lot about this topic. I don't know if I can say if it was the main reason I left, but it played a part...there was no single reason, it was a lot of different ones.

 

Several things come to mind, most Christians answer this question by saying that evil is the result of our free will, or the more theological version of this argument, that nature itself was corrupted by sin.

 

The first version is just nonsense, since many things we consider evil happen due to events beyond human control, such as a flood, or earthquake, the second version tries to account for this, but logically cannot make a connection between our sin and a flood or an earthquake, indeed, it smacks ancient superstition. Even the bible does not actually make such a connection explicit.

 

This also does nothing to explain how science has taught us that earthquakes, floods, and even extraterrestrial cataclysms occurred long before humans even existed, indeed, it is inconceivable that life could be sustained in the universe were it not for these events, which can, ironically, end life as well.

 

This is why some will argue that "evil" in the form of natural disasters exists because god could not have created the universe differently...which of course, argues against themselves, because if this were true, heaven cannot exist.

 

In the end I think what really kills this argument though, is a discussion on what "evil" actually is. As I mentioned, the very chaos that comes from natural disasters, is necessary for life to have even evolved in the first place.

 

Is a man who kills another man, in a war, to be considered evil for killing, or to be considered good because he acted for his survival, and the survival of his home land? Whoever dies, someone is unhappy, but the universe will move on without a second glance.

 

Why do we consider the death of a human to be a tragedy, but not the death of the chicken who put food on my plate tonight?

 

The biggest problem we have with evil is figuring out what we even mean by the word, and since religion hasn't come up with any better answers, I'm fairly sure, that inserting god into this subject merely muddies the waters rather than making it clearer.

 

These are just a few of my thoughts on the subject, that I came up with in the process of deconverting.

[GraphicsGuy]

It follows, then (at least from these assumptions), that the presence of evil in the world cannot be traced back to God

 

To me the entire article begins with a fallacy due to this line. Cannot be traced back to God? Of course it can!

 

This supposedly all-powerful, omnipotent being created everything and evil cannot be traced back to God? Adam fell because he and Eve gave in to Satan's temptation.

 

Yet Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. How could they even know that disobeying God was bad? How could they know that the talking snake was evil incarnate?

 

Ultimately, you trace it further back to come to the obvious conclusion that God created evil. He created Lucifer knowing that he would fall and become Satan.

 

If everything came out of God, then evil came out of God. God is all-encompassing. Evil and good.

 

It was some of these thoughts that brought me to the realization that the Bible is crap.

[Ouroboros]

Actually, I do think in my case it was a big part of my reason to lose faith. I felt that too much evil was happening to my family that I couldn't reconcile with a God that supposedly loved my family more than me and would care for them better than me, when the obvious was staring in my face that it wasn't the case. I lost my trust in what I had learned about God, I lost trust in God, and I lost trust in my faith and knowledge overall and realized that I had nothing to stand on to why I believed. I do think evil in the eyes of a supposedly good God, you should at least see God's will to fix it to the better more than you see things go to the worse. Statistically speaking, Christians and atheists suffer the same evil in this world, with or without prayer, so it seems God is very indifferent about the world. If "good" doesn't make sense or we can't see what is "good" from God, then how can we know for sure it is good or not? It's only if we can see it and judge it when we can know it is good.

[Ouroboros]

http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/god-and-suffering/

I think the author of the article is not completely honest. Flew did not become a Christian, but a Deist, so he shouldn't use him as an example to support Christian theology. He also use arguments and explanations that aren't really totally Biblical. There are questions about what and how free will really is defined in the Bible, or sin, or responsibility for sin, and how you get salvation, so he writes his excuses based on personal opinions and how can that really be of any importance or explanation for the problem of evil in the world? The Bible does not explain it fully or to a satistfactory level, and it is supposedly the Book of all Books and directly guided by God to be our handbook, and yet it fails to explain those things; until some smart theologian come up with some philosophical excuse he thinks fits for the moment. Is the Bible the answer or is the theologians arguments the answer?

 

Just wondered if Ehrman’s experiance is a common one amongst those that deconvert. As I know I certainly struggle with it.

It might be.

[Neon Genesis]

This is definetly one of the major reasons why I can't believe in Christianity anymore, especially since God/Jesus is such a total hypocrite about it. God/Jesus cricticsizes we mere mortals for not being "good Samaritians" and helping all people regardless of who they are, but then gets to pick and choose which prayers he wants to answer and then ignore everyone else? If that isn't hypocrispy, then I don't know what is. Which is why I keep asking Christians this question I have yet to have answered, when God answers whoever's prayers he feels like answering but ignores other people's prayers, is God acting like a Pharisee or is God acting like a "good Samaritan"? If God really believes in being "good Samaritans", then why doesn't God practice what he preaches?

[Ouroboros]

Right. God is not a good samaritan. That kind of nails the problem.

[Jedah]

I notice that its a huge reason for doubt amoung church members. No how much you spin it, if you look at the world and assume it was made by God life is unfairly random. Sure, christians tell themselves that its all good and gawd simply "works in mysterious ways" ( fundinese for "I have no fucking clue but I like being a sheeple so I'll keep believing anyways." ) - until of course random illogical bullshit happens to them and they realize "Wait a minute, no matter how I spin this, no good comes from it!". I cant count the times I have overheard casual after-church conversations that could be summed up as pathetic half-assed attempts to rationalize their irrational god into their bubbleview.

 

The fact is that if there is a God he is a morally neutral clockmaker who set the universe in motion and lets us weave our own fate. Good things happen when they happen, and bad things happen when they happen. Any intellectually honest person knows that IMO.

[PandaPirate]

This is a question I wanted to ask as theodicy is such a hard topic for me. I have looked at the existance of evil and a good God and it does not make sense no matter what angle I see it from. This is my major area of wrestling.

 

I wondered if it figured into your deconversions and what ways you wrestled with it if it did?

 

 

sojourner

 

 

Theodicy is PRECISELY the reason I left christianity. As a matter of fact, I'll share a "conversation" I had on foru.ms about this subject. The lack of logical argument here is evident and frustrating.

 

 

Below is probably one of the most ridiculous threads you'll ever read:

http://christianforums.com/t6489505-why-di...-the-devil.html

[Alice]

This is a question I wanted to ask as theodicy is such a hard topic for me. I have looked at the existance of evil and a good God and it does not make sense no matter what angle I see it from. This is my major area of wrestling.

 

I wondered if it figured into your deconversions and what ways you wrestled with it if it did?

 

 

sojourner

 

 

Theodicy is PRECISELY the reason I left christianity. As a matter of fact, I'll share a "conversation" I had on foru.ms about this subject. The lack of logical argument here is evident and frustrating.

 

 

Below is probably one of the most ridiculous threads you'll ever read:

http://christianforums.com/t6489505-why-di...-the-devil.html

 

 

I couldn't read it all ... for some reason every time the member called Squint signed off by saying 'enjoy!' I experienced a number of evil emotions ...

 

This suggestion to the existence of evil is worth quoting ...

 

I hold the view, God created evil like a bowel movement.

 

Not with His hands.

 

The mind truly boggles!!

 

Sojourner,

 

I like you because this question bothers you ... I took an instant dislike to 'Squint' (something I try not to do too often) precisely because he/she signed off 'enjoy!' in a thread that dealt with evil, pain and suffering.

 

For me, there is the same 'lack of sense' when one tries to believe in an all powerful creator of everything personality God of goodness and remembers that there is 'evil in the world'.

 

God only makes sense to me as either 'love' or as the 'creative life force' - not both together.

[SWIM]

I couldn't read it all ... for some reason every time the member called Squint signed off by saying 'enjoy!' I experienced a number of evil emotions ...

 

This suggestion to the existence of evil is worth quoting ...

 

I hold the view, God created evil like a bowel movement.

 

Not with His hands.

 

I also had a hard time reading all about our lawrd taking a dump to create satan, because I found trying to read someones posts who are overly enlarged, very hard to do. I guess they increased the font size cause they wanted to give the effect that what they are saying is so biblically, astronomicaly important, every word must be read for your soul's sake...

 

LOL what a loon fest!

 

[Legion]

God only makes sense to me as either 'love' or as the 'creative life force' - not both together.

I think this is an interesting statement.

[Alice]

I think of it this way - if 'god' is the creative life force, intent - in terms of concepts of good and evil in creation, doesn't feature ... the only 'intent' is life in all its diversity, so one is not left with stuggling to understand how a loving God can have 'created' predators from lions to flesh eating microbes ... these things just 'are' as a way in which life is perpetuated, destroyed, absorbed and recreated.

 

God as love applies only to mankinds evolving ability to rise above some aspects of our natural state and extend the altruism our species (and some others to some extent) can show already in certain circumstances. God as love is a 'god' I see sense in reaching for!

[sojourner]

I think of it this way - if 'god' is the creative life force, intent - in terms of concepts of good and evil in creation, doesn't feature ... the only 'intent' is life in all its diversity, so one is not left with stuggling to understand how a loving God can have 'created' predators from lions to flesh eating microbes ... these things just 'are' as a way in which life is perpetuated, destroyed, absorbed and recreated.

 

God as love applies only to mankinds evolving ability to rise above some aspects of our natural state and extend the altruism our species (and some others to some extent) can show already in certain circumstances. God as love is a 'god' I see sense in reaching for!

 

 

Very nice post Alice. I really like how you put that. I do see a God of love, because of what is in my own awareness as you would say and then when I look around me at times it just boggles my mind. I dont know that I will ever understand it. But I really liked how you said the 'intent' is life.

 

Panda

I have read squint before on another forum that I used to frequent that he was banned from. He spends 90% of his time talking about devils. Thats his thing and his partners that travels around with him. They believe devils were kicked out of heaven and grabbed hold of men and used them to break their fall to the abyss and that they are responsible for all the sin in the world.

 

sojourner

 

ps thanks to everyone for responding, Im not at all thru wrestling with this.

[R. S. Martin]

I had to look up the word theodicy. Here is what I found on Answers.com:

 

Argument for the justification of God, concerned with reconciling God's goodness and justice with the observable facts of evil and suffering in the world. Most such arguments are a necessary component of

theism

. Under

polytheism

, the problem is solved by attributing evil to a conflict of wills between deities. The solution is less simple in

monotheism

, and it can take several forms. In some approaches, the perfect world created by God was spoiled by human disobedience or

sin

. In others, God withdrew after creating the world, which then fell into decay.

It appears to be a major, multifaceted topic, and if we start with the aspect of sin, then it was central to my deconversion. The idea of sinful humans did not mesh with my observation of reality. In my personal search for mental health I read many self-help books. All of them insisted that if this or that dysfunction was improved, then humanity would be better off. As I analyzed myself and those around me and isolated these factors, I was able to improve my life, my self-esteem, and my relationships. As you can guess, this was no small matter for me. Bit by bit, over the years, for better or for worse, I was able to build myself up from scratch into who I am today. Part of the process was finding and connecting with communities outside my native religious community. From these communities I learned about love and respect and human dignity. It was my first experience of being accepted and respected for who I am. It was a very powerful experience for me. I concluded that the human is good deep down.

 

I believe that our world's greatest criminals are that way because of severe emotional damage done to them sometime since their conception. There are also psychological conditions in which humans are not responsible for their actions. I think alcohol fetal syndrome is the name of the one I know about, where people don't develop feelings of empathy for others, which effectively leaves them without a conscience. Such people are known to commit attrocities against society in cold blood. While they may not be morally responsible for their actions, they must be restrained in some way for the safety of others. Unfortunately, the condition can be difficult to diagnose. Also, the offenses may be so borderline that they cannot be nailed down. I know of one such case where children are involved. The case went to court but the person was allowed to keep the children. I'm not sure on what charge it went to court but I think neglect was suspected.

 

My point is that evil exists. However, there are natural explanations for the evil. And it is not evil on a supernatural level. Humans are not evil by virtue of being human. Nor is the earth corrupt by virtue of being home to humans. I do not believe that humans fell from a state of perfection, as in the story in the Bible. I believe we evolved and that morals evolved along with our evolving intellects. Some people like to make the argument that as a social institution our species has evolved in the past three thousand years. I am not prepared to make that argument.

 

That's my position on evil. Here's what I wrote last night on what I think God is:

For myself, the closest concept I can agree with is Tillich's idea of Ground of Being. If people want to worship the concept of existence, I guess they can do so. There is a chance that I don't understand Tillich. I read something here on exC about the universe itself being consciousness. I don't get that at all. If that is what Tillich meant, then I don't get him. I don't see a consciousness in this "Ground of Being" or in existence. Frankly, I think that's crazy, but maybe that's just me.

 

When I think of consciousness I think of an entity capable of making a decision such as withdrawing or moving on its own. For example, a new born infant can withdraw its hand if it wishes. A rock cannot move itself on its own volition. A snail, on the other hand, can. Even if driven mostly by instinct, it is not a mechanical move in that specific instant.

 

But then there's larger things like what causes earthquakes and hurricanes. I'm not very scientific but I have read enough articles and listened to enough lectures to get a very general idea. And the idea I get is that there are natural phenomena. Are these caused by a consciousness? In other words, is there a consciousness in the universe capable of willing them into happening?

 

Ewww!!!!!! I never ever thought of things this way. I find it very easy to believe that things just happen. (FROM

here

.)

While I had not articulated my thoughts on this so clearly before my deconversion, for the main part I could not see a direct connection between God and the things that happened on earth. For example, I could not convince myself that all the people who perished in some natural (or not-so-natural) dissaster were bad guys. It did not seem realistic, esp. in light of the fact that very serious farm accidents kept happening to my own people who were very devout and dedicated in their religion. There are quite a number of permanently injured people, and a fair number of deaths, due to large farm machinery and a lack of safety precautions. The philosophy is to trust in God for protection and safety. QUESTION: If God cannot keep a tractor from rolling onto a Christian farmer, how can he single out the good from the bad when it comes to floods and hurricanes?

 

I think statements about "God's will" and "tests of faith" in the face of calamity are ways Christians use to shore up their faith when by all appearances it is misplaced. OBJECTION: If we use this argument to explain away God's powerlessness to prevent dissaster for his faithful followers, then there is no way left to prove that God is real.

 

The operating principle seems to be: God favours his faithful followers.

 

If that is the principle, then it needs to work consistently in all cases. God needs to be able to override the laws of nature to protect his followers. If he has exceptions to the rule, these need to be clearly spelled out. OBSERVATION: The exceptions keep changing. There are no clearly spelled out rules or principles. Hence the ambivilent statement that God favours his own except when he wants to test their faith.

 

This allows God to play dice with humans in any old way he wants to. It also allows religious leaders to make any excuses for God that they feel like making. If things work out, it's for God's glory. If things don't work out, it's because humans didn't measure up or because it's God's will, etc. Humans are at God's mercy. In order for humans to get out of this vicious circle of superstition they need to look beyond it. WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE is one place to start.

 

The question that refused to go away for me was HOW DOES JESUS' DEATH FIX THE PROBLEM WITH GOD?

 

In order for Jesus to save humanity from sin, humans had to be sinful. As shown above, I could not determine that humans were sinful. As also shown, I could not determine a link between the supernatural and events on earth. If there is no link, perhaps there is nothing to link to.

 

Since the mystical experience can be artificially stimulated with magnetic forces, it stands to reason that any seeming supernatural entities exist only in the human psyche. After all, night time dreaming can be every bit as real as any visions or mystical experiences we have. They have a different quality but they are just as real. Humans have been convinced that certain types of night time dreams are out of the body experiences. If we do not accept that a person leave the body and travels three hundred miles during his sleep, then why do we accept that a supernatural being from some mystical realm spoke to us or revealed some message of love to us?

 

Feelings of utter love have enveloped me for no apparent reason. Hormones play all kinds of funny tricks, as do a very wide range of other chemicals in the body and especially on the brain. It's part of the human condition.

[PandaPirate]

Panda

I have read squint before on another forum that I used to frequent that he was banned from. He spends 90% of his time talking about devils. Thats his thing and his partners that travels around with him. They believe devils were kicked out of heaven and grabbed hold of men and used them to break their fall to the abyss and that they are responsible for all the sin in the world.

 

Wow, very interesting. This guy is a complete madman. What's scary is that they are out there in hte real world...lurking....waiting....to tell you that you're going to hell! And he could be that nice, little old man who bags your groceries at WalMart.

[Grandpa Harley]

Right. God is not a good samaritan. That kind of nails the problem.

 

Isn't that Easter?

 

on topic, it was less Theodicy and more Theo-idiocy (sic)... to such a glaring extent that, aged 5 (nearly 6), I realised I was being lied to... I confess, I've never forgiven the powers that be for thinking I was that much of a moron...

[Grandpa Harley]

Panda

I have read squint before on another forum that I used to frequent that he was banned from. He spends 90% of his time talking about devils. Thats his thing and his partners that travels around with him. They believe devils were kicked out of heaven and grabbed hold of men and used them to break their fall to the abyss and that they are responsible for all the sin in the world.

 

Wow, very interesting. This guy is a complete madman. What's scary is that they are out there in hte real world...lurking....waiting....to tell you that you're going to hell! And he could be that nice, little old man who bags your groceries at WalMart.

 

That sounds like a version of Scientology....

[Ouroboros]

Right. God is not a good samaritan. That kind of nails the problem.

 

Isn't that Easter?

 

 

on topic, it was less Theodicy and more Theo-idiocy (sic)... to such a glaring extent that, aged 5 (nearly 6), I realised I was being lied to... I confess, I've never forgiven the powers that be for thinking I was that much of a moron...

And that my friend is Moronism.

[trashy]

Theodicy did not. Since I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist home, complete with the beliefs of a literal six-day creation and the inerrancy of scripture, it was math that did me in. The flood story of Genesis just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Volume of water, where the water went afterward, how the animals got to the ark and back to their respective continents, how plants and trees began to grow again just as soon as the water went back down, etc., etc. That's where it started for me.

[bellsybop]

It played a huge part in my deconversion.

 

It made no sense to me how this wonderful, forgiving God could even think of punishing one single person for the slightest of iota of a sin.

I read a series of books from Neale Donald Walsch that began my thinking process of the sin thing. And from there I kept on going... searching for answers to more and more questions.

Once I found out how the bible was put together, and oddly enough, wondered why this isn't part of what you learn in Sunday school classes, it made me sick.

And from there, I have ventured even further to believe that Hitler should've focused more on a different set of religious people rather than the innocent Jews.

[hereticzero]

Theodicy did not play that major of a part in my deconversion. I did not believe god was responsible for evil in the world, I had thought of evil existed because of man's inhumanity to man. I did not feel god was responsible for what others said about him or said in his name. I really wished he would have made a general announcement to the world so everyone could hear him at one time about who spoke or acted for him. Since he did not, I could only come to the conclusion that either he did not care and we were still evolving into whatever he was creating out of us. But that idea could not pan out either. So I have come to the conclusion that the only way I can know for certain is to wait and ask him or her myself some day--and if there is no afterlife, then I'll get a good rest. Either way, the Christian idea of god is false. Jesus and his stories portrayed by the christian church could not possibly have happened because the story of Eden and the fall of man were not true. Without the truth of Genesis, the story of Jesus cannot be true because the story of Jesus is the direct result of the doctrine of the fall of man in the garden of eden. It does no good to separate the two stories like we were searching for the secrets of buddha among the teachings of christ. Buddha is a proven person who existed, even with no religion, buddha did live in history. There is nothing to prove the existance of Jesus beyond the church's imagination.

 

Christianity wants to lay the blame of evil at humanity's feet (all of humanity except for the good christians, of course) and by doing so, Christianity creates its evil in the use of its own doctrine portraying all of humanity as pawns of Lucifer. It makes the subjugation of other countries easier when they do not share one's own view of humanity. They are evil, we are not. Misery and suffering comes from nature according to natural laws. Suffering at the hands of our own neighbors for the sake of religion (most political causes are religiously inspired) is not a natural occurance for us but an artificial imposition of suffering deliberately caused by the will of one or more persons. Religion perverts one's mind against the activities of one's fellow man to the point one can only define another's actions by one's own religious beliefs. When those beliefs are announced in political arenas, the population tends to accept the political propaganda as true religious doctrine--because the hate was spewed by a believer. After a while, the hate becomes a mantra of the political force and it sooner or later finds its way into every church as doctrine, again. The only way to break the cycle is not to elect outspoken christians to office or those who are active in their church. Hard to do with the population but it can be done over time. Don't give a forum to the nuts running for office and they will go away. Man suffers because man causes man to suffer.

[justsomeone]

This is a question I wanted to ask as theodicy is such a hard topic for me. I have looked at the existance of evil and a good God and it does not make sense no matter what angle I see it from. This is my major area of wrestling.

 

I wondered if it figured into your deconversions and what ways you wrestled with it if it did?

 

 

sojourner

 

Hey So j,

 

If there is a God of course evil or at least the responsibility for it is His and if there is no God then it is ultimately a manifestation of man being man.

 

Can anyone make anything good and worthwhile without some adversity? Louis LaMour (spelling?) once said that if he didn't have an enemy he would create one. Meaning that an enemy brought out the best in him. It made him use skills and think thoughts and maneuver through life in ways that would never happen if all was rosy.

 

To build a beautiful building one much 'evil' is created. Much breaking and tearing and cutting and so on but out of it comes beauty. To overcome obstacles to achieve something is more rewarding than achieving the object without great effort and effort cannot exist without an adversary.

 

My thoughts.

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

So it avoids God getting bored?

 

And the language is English, son, ENGLISH... I don't expect to have to translate your evangelical pap before I can respond.