Theodicy

[sojourner]

Hey So j,

 

 

Can anyone make anything good and worthwhile without some adversity? Louis LaMour (spelling?) once said that if he didn't have an enemy he would create one. Meaning that an enemy brought out the best in him. It made him use skills and think thoughts and maneuver through life in ways that would never happen if all was rosy.

 

So Louis would create himself an enemy if he didnt already have one. Id say he needed to look a little closer to home then, inside himself if his life couldnt be satisfying without having another to overcome. That sounds very narcistic to me for some reason. Sounds like a control issue to me where someone has to get their jollies at the expense of another. Seems to me to be truly fulfilled you dont need enemies at all nor need to create them.

 

And so wouldnt you be saying that God created enemies to make himself feel good about himself in overcoming them. Sounds like a god with a self esteem problem or else he just likes to create things to destroy them.

 

To build a beautiful building one much 'evil' is created. Much breaking and tearing and cutting and so on but out of it comes beauty. To overcome obstacles to achieve something is more rewarding than achieving the object without great effort and effort cannot exist without an adversary.

 

My thoughts.

 

js

 

Thats transformation, causing something to be transformed from one state to another, a tree to two by fours, then to a building structure, to nice shiney wood floors. Thats not evil, its just change to me.

 

Evil to me is selfishness, hatred and things like that. Its all in the motive. The motive of a builder is good, the motive of a murderer is selfish.

 

Where did the evil/motive of selfishness and hatred come from? Is it strictly a human thing or a God thing?

 

According to the ot even God is evil, many times.

 

------------------------

 

I wanted to thank those of you that responded as of late, good stuff, a lot to think about.

 

Sojourner

[justsomeone]

Hey So j,

 

 

Can anyone make anything good and worthwhile without some adversity? Louis LaMour (spelling?) once said that if he didn't have an enemy he would create one. Meaning that an enemy brought out the best in him. It made him use skills and think thoughts and maneuver through life in ways that would never happen if all was rosy.

 

So Louis would create himself an enemy if he didnt already have one. Id say he needed to look a little closer to home then, inside himself if his life couldnt be satisfying without having another to overcome. That sounds very narcistic to me for some reason. Sounds like a control issue to me where someone has to get their jollies at the expense of another. Seems to me to be truly fulfilled you dont need enemies at all nor need to create them.

 

And so wouldnt you be saying that God created enemies to make himself feel good about himself in overcoming them. Sounds like a god with a self esteem problem or else he just likes to create things to destroy them.

 

To build a beautiful building one much 'evil' is created. Much breaking and tearing and cutting and so on but out of it comes beauty. To overcome obstacles to achieve something is more rewarding than achieving the object without great effort and effort cannot exist without an adversary.

 

My thoughts.

 

js

 

Thats transformation, causing something to be transformed from one state to another, a tree to two by fours, then to a building structure, to nice shiney wood floors. Thats not evil, its just change to me.

 

Evil to me is selfishness, hatred and things like that. Its all in the motive. The motive of a builder is good, the motive of a murderer is selfish.

 

Where did the evil/motive of selfishness and hatred come from? Is it strictly a human thing or a God thing?

 

According to the ot even God is evil, many times.

 

------------------------

 

I wanted to thank those of you that responded as of late, good stuff, a lot to think about.

 

Sojourner

 

I hear ya. Motives and where do these motives come from? Why is one motivated to rape and pillage while another is motivated to heal and help? Now we are getting deep and how can any of us really know?

 

One thing I have observed that has helped me see that the good and evil cannot ultimately be uncontrolled realities. Balance. There is always a balance. Not a equal balance at all times but over time there is a balance. Why? Why doesn't evil win out and we nuke ourselves or murder ourselves out of existence? Or why doesn't good win out and all disease and molesters become extinct?

 

Why are good and evil always in existence, side by side, so to speak through all time?

 

What/Who is causing and keeping this balance? Is it random forces acting randomly?

 

What forces motivate each man?

 

I don't know and tis why I'm here. There seem to be some pretty profound people here who may hold some keys to these questions.

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

you seem to specialise in flawed agument and a priori assumption, as well as hyperbolic gibberish...

 

Can you actually get to a point without someone having to translate the damend post? PLEASE! JUST A LITTLE FUCKING SLACK HERE!!!!

[justsomeone]

you seem to specialise in flawed agument and a priori assumption, as well as hyperbolic gibberish...

 

Can you actually get to a point without someone having to translate the damend post? PLEASE! JUST A LITTLE FUCKING SLACK HERE!!!!

 

Sorry Gramps,

 

I am saying there is balance in life. Then Iam asking, why?

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

No. There isn't balance in life... quite the reverse. Equilibrium means the system has stopped... it's wound down, dead or dying. Like milk in tea. It's mixed and you'll not unmix it in the life time of 100 universes...

 

and as to why? well 'Why not?'

[justsomeone]

No. There isn't balance in life... quite the reverse. Equilibrium means the system has stopped... it's wound down, dead or dying. Like milk in tea. It's mixed and you'll not unmix it in the life time of 100 universes...

 

and as to why? well 'Why not?'

 

If there is no balance in life, how does everything keep going? Why doesn't evil overtake good or vice versa? I'm not talking equal balance at all times but overall.

 

There also seems to be a great deal of very complex order from the bee hive to man himself. Why? Where did this order come from?

 

js

[justsomeone]

No. There isn't balance in life... quite the reverse. Equilibrium means the system has stopped... it's wound down, dead or dying. Like milk in tea. It's mixed and you'll not unmix it in the life time of 100 universes...

 

and as to why? well 'Why not?'

 

If there is no balance in life, how does everything keep going? Why doesn't evil overtake good or vice versa? I'm not talking equal balance at all times but overall.

 

There also seems to be a great deal of very complex order from the bee hive to man himself. Why? Where did this order come from?

 

js

 

Let me add that I do see what you are saying. While I see a balance I also see the 'dying' you speak of. Interesting.

 

Thanks for your thoughts and your patience with me.

 

These are not idle questions or thoughts for me. I literally struggle with these things. It is hard but I also find some contentment in my searching.

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

No. There isn't balance in life... quite the reverse. Equilibrium means the system has stopped... it's wound down, dead or dying. Like milk in tea. It's mixed and you'll not unmix it in the life time of 100 universes...

 

and as to why? well 'Why not?'

 

If there is no balance in life, how does everything keep going? Why doesn't evil overtake good or vice versa? I'm not talking equal balance at all times but overall.

 

There also seems to be a great deal of very complex order from the bee hive to man himself. Why? Where did this order come from?

 

js

 

Why is it complex? just because you think is complex doesn't make it objectively 'complex', it's just your limitation as a thinker that makes it seem complex. From a wider perspective it works because it works. don't go saying it 'hard' or 'complex' just cos you don't understand it.

 

and as to "If there is no balance in life, how does everything keep going?" Look up somerting like a Lorentz attractor. It keeps 'going' precisely because there is no equilibrium. Soon as the attractor hits balance it stops. Dead. The sequence is predicable the same 3 numbers over and over for ever (its a vector of the Cartesian form (x,y,z))

 

Now to 'evil' - prove evil is an extrinsic 'force of nature' and then is becomes discussable in terms of what you're looking for. Seems to me you're mixing metaphors, assuming 'evil' has a cosmic significance, when really it's just whether or not you like the action or not. Personal preference has little to do with the cosmos and everything to do with cultural mores.

[justsomeone]

No. There isn't balance in life... quite the reverse. Equilibrium means the system has stopped... it's wound down, dead or dying. Like milk in tea. It's mixed and you'll not unmix it in the life time of 100 universes...

 

and as to why? well 'Why not?'

 

If there is no balance in life, how does everything keep going? Why doesn't evil overtake good or vice versa? I'm not talking equal balance at all times but overall.

 

There also seems to be a great deal of very complex order from the bee hive to man himself. Why? Where did this order come from?

 

js

 

Why is it complex? just because you think is complex doesn't make it objectively 'complex', it's just your limitation as a thinker that makes it seem complex. From a wider perspective it works because it works. don't go saying it 'hard' or 'complex' just cos you don't understand it.

 

and as to "If there is no balance in life, how does everything keep going?" Look up somerting like a Lorentz attractor. It keeps 'going' precisely because there is no equilibrium. Soon as the attractor hits balance it stops. Dead. The sequence is predicable the same 3 numbers over and over for ever (its a vector of the Cartesian form (x,y,z))

 

Now to 'evil' - prove evil is an extrinsic 'force of nature' and then is becomes discussable in terms of what you're looking for. Seems to me you're mixing metaphors, assuming 'evil' has a cosmic significance, when really it's just whether or not you like the action or not. Personal preference has little to do with the cosmos and everything to do with cultural mores.

 

Talk about complex! Your words ring so true yet to my puny mind they are complex! But I like that. That's what I'm here for, to stretch my mind.

 

Are you saying complexity is relative?Are you saying that to me some things may be complex yet to another these same things are very simple and completly rational?

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

'Rational'... there you go sticking an intelligence in the mix. If by rational, you mean 'the most efficient way, within the limits of the 'system', that the 'system' reaches a final state' then yes, it's rational becuase that's the way reality works. If you mean by 'rational' it 'makes sense to an intelligence', that is 'intelligible' then you're pissing in the wind. Doesn't matter if the mechanism is 'intelligible' or not... it simply is the way it works...

 

Now back to 'evil' - how is 'evil' a cosmic force?

[justsomeone]

Hi GH,

 

Are you saying complexity is relative?Are you saying that to me some things may be complex yet to another these same things are very simple and completly rational?

 

Did you answer my question? God, am I dull or what?

 

As to your last question. How is evil a cosmic force?

 

I don't view evil as a cosmic force. To me evil is a word that means to break or smash.

 

Morally I see evil in this way...... A policeman shoots a person in the line of duty. This shooting is an evil act but morally it is the right thing to do. Now a man takes a gun and shoots another for no good reason at all. This act is an evil but is not the right thing to do.

 

Make any sense?

 

To me good and evil need to co exist thus the tree of good and evil.

[Neon Genesis]

Why are good and evil always in existence, side by side, so to speak through all time?

 

What/Who is causing and keeping this balance? Is it random forces acting randomly?

If God allows evil to exist in order to maintain balance with good, then why doesn't God distrubute his blessings and allow people to suffer equally? Why does God bless the rich with all the money and comfort that they need but allows innocent children in middle eastern countries to starve to death? If good and evil were really balanced, why doesn't God bless us all with an exact equal amount of money while allowing us to suffer the exact equal amount of diseases?

 

Morally I see evil in this way...... A policeman shoots a person in the line of duty. This shooting is an evil act but morally it is the right thing to do. Now a man takes a gun and shoots another for no good reason at all. This act is an evil but is not the right thing to do.

 

Make any sense?

 

To me good and evil need to co exist thus the tree of good and evil

There's one problem with your analogy here. A policeman is a mere human and does not claim to be an invicincible all-loving being that could have prevented that situation from happening in the first place. God however, does claim to be invincinble and all-loving and he claims to have the power to prevent that situation from occuring if he felt like it, but he doesn't. That is why God is a hypocrite. And if God allows evil to exist to maintain balance with good, then what is the purpose of heaven? If everything is balanced because God allows both good and evil to exist, will there be evil in heaven? Or will heaven be chaotic because there is no evil to balance the good? And since you admit that morals are based on what is relative to the situation since you believe there are certain times where killing is justified, then if morality is relative, how does one define "good" and "evil"? And if "good" and "evil" are entirely relative, how can one say that God is a good God worthy of worship and praise since what is "good" is relative? How do you know that what God commands you to do is "good" if "good" and "evil" are relative?

[Grandpa Harley]

Hi GH,

 

Are you saying complexity is relative?Are you saying that to me some things may be complex yet to another these same things are very simple and completly rational?

 

Did you answer my question? God, am I dull or what?

 

As to your last question. How is evil a cosmic force?

 

I don't view evil as a cosmic force. To me evil is a word that means to break or smash.

 

Morally I see evil in this way...... A policeman shoots a person in the line of duty. This shooting is an evil act but morally it is the right thing to do. Now a man takes a gun and shoots another for no good reason at all. This act is an evil but is not the right thing to do.

 

Make any sense?

 

To me good and evil need to co exist thus the tree of good and evil.

 

So you're making up a definition of the word 'evil' that there is ascutally a perfectly good other word for 'break'... OK... you've no officially exhausted my patience. Yes, you are dull... dumb a s a fence post.

[justsomeone]

Hi GH,

 

Are you saying complexity is relative?Are you saying that to me some things may be complex yet to another these same things are very simple and completly rational?

 

Did you answer my question? God, am I dull or what?

 

As to your last question. How is evil a cosmic force?

 

I don't view evil as a cosmic force. To me evil is a word that means to break or smash.

 

Morally I see evil in this way...... A policeman shoots a person in the line of duty. This shooting is an evil act but morally it is the right thing to do. Now a man takes a gun and shoots another for no good reason at all. This act is an evil but is not the right thing to do.

 

Make any sense?

 

To me good and evil need to co exist thus the tree of good and evil.

 

So you're making up a definition of the word 'evil' that there is ascutally a perfectly good other word for 'break'... OK... you've no officially exhausted my patience. Yes, you are dull... dumb a s a fence post.

 

You know how to goad me into keep on writing don't ya Gramps?

 

I base my definition on evil from the Hebrew word rah I believe it is. In my feeble studies I am led to believe the Hebrew meaning of this very old word is to smash or break and I have other examples of uses where this is born out. I and my sources could be wrong or there could be other meanings.

 

I'm sorry to have exhausted you but I guess I truly do not know what you mean by evil as a cosmic force.

 

I won't blame you for not writing back as I tend to exhaust my own patience from time to time and I wish I could get away from my own stupidity!

 

The fence post

[justsomeone]

Why are good and evil always in existence, side by side, so to speak through all time?

 

What/Who is causing and keeping this balance? Is it random forces acting randomly?

If God allows evil to exist in order to maintain balance with good, then why doesn't God distrubute his blessings and allow people to suffer equally? Why does God bless the rich with all the money and comfort that they need but allows innocent children in middle eastern countries to starve to death? If good and evil were really balanced, why doesn't God bless us all with an exact equal amount of money while allowing us to suffer the exact equal amount of diseases?

 

Morally I see evil in this way...... A policeman shoots a person in the line of duty. This shooting is an evil act but morally it is the right thing to do. Now a man takes a gun and shoots another for no good reason at all. This act is an evil but is not the right thing to do.

 

Make any sense?

 

To me good and evil need to co exist thus the tree of good and evil

There's one problem with your analogy here. A policeman is a mere human and does not claim to be an invicincible all-loving being that could have prevented that situation from happening in the first place. God however, does claim to be invincinble and all-loving and he claims to have the power to prevent that situation from occuring if he felt like it, but he doesn't. That is why God is a hypocrite. And if God allows evil to exist to maintain balance with good, then what is the purpose of heaven? If everything is balanced because God allows both good and evil to exist, will there be evil in heaven? Or will heaven be chaotic because there is no evil to balance the good? And since you admit that morals are based on what is relative to the situation since you believe there are certain times where killing is justified, then if morality is relative, how does one define "good" and "evil"? And if "good" and "evil" are entirely relative, how can one say that God is a good God worthy of worship and praise since what is "good" is relative? How do you know that what God commands you to do is "good" if "good" and "evil" are relative?

 

Are you sure the rich are blessed? I suppose some are but let me tell you from experience that there are some very blessed poor people, Neon. Please do not ever judge others by the amount of material wealth they may have.

 

If everyone were identical in blessings and curses I think life would by so predictable it would bore us to death. I said before we are all in this thing together. I do not think you suffer with no effect upon me and you do not experience joy without my benefitting in some way. This thought might really blow your cork at me but there it is, just a unsubstantiated belief of mine.

 

I think there will be evil in heaven especially if I am there but the divine will control perfectly then. Heaven to me is a perfectly ordered state of mind and maybe you and I will reach this condition at some point, maybe not. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part.

 

I have no idea what God commands me to do. I just do and reap whatever.

 

js

[Neon Genesis]

Isn't it also judgemental of you to say that rich people are never blessed and that God only "blesses" poor people? If blessings only applied to poor people and not the amount of material wealth you have, why did God bless David and Solomon with all their riches and even multiple wives? If blessings didn't apply to material wealth, why did God bother to save the Jews from Egpyt or take away the land of the Canannites to give to the Jews? If blessings didn't apply to material wealth, why did God bless the Jews with riches and power whenever they believed in him? Since you claim that identical blessings would make life boring and predictable, then are you implying that God creates suffering for his amusement? Why should I worship a God that gets pleasure out of seeing us suffer while we continue to do our hardest to appease him? How is this kind of God any different than a tyrant?

 

As I said earlier in the thread, in the bible, Jesus accuses the Pharisees of not being good Samaritans and helping people regardless of who they are. When God blesses some people but not other people, is God being a good Samaritan or is God being a Pharisee? And how can there be evil in heaven if God says that he cannot be within the presence of evil? You also have not answered my question. If what is "good" and what is "evil" is entirely relative as in your gun example in your earlier post, how do you know what God commands you to do is "good" or "evil"? And if you have no idea what God commands you to do, how do you know what it is God wants you to reap?

[Grandpa Harley]

I'd suggest, if you're using the Hebrew word that then translates to greek, and thence to English as 'evil', you should use the Hebrew word... then we have a fighting chance of know what the hell you are jabbering on about

 

and I didn't say that you'd exhausted me, just my patience... and when that happens I become a pestilence... So cut the Heepisn faux humility, you dolt.

[justsomeone]

Isn't it also judgemental of you to say that rich people are never blessed and that God only "blesses" poor people? If blessings only applied to poor people and not the amount of material wealth you have, why did God bless David and Solomon with all their riches and even multiple wives? If blessings didn't apply to material wealth, why did God bother to save the Jews from Egpyt or take away the land of the Canannites to give to the Jews? If blessings didn't apply to material wealth, why did God bless the Jews with riches and power whenever they believed in him? Since you claim that identical blessings would make life boring and predictable, then are you implying that God creates suffering for his amusement? Why should I worship a God that gets pleasure out of seeing us suffer while we continue to do our hardest to appease him? How is this kind of God any different than a tyrant?

 

As I said earlier in the thread, in the bible, Jesus accuses the Pharisees of not being good Samaritans and helping people regardless of who they are. When God blesses some people but not other people, is God being a good Samaritan or is God being a Pharisee? And how can there be evil in heaven if God says that he cannot be within the presence of evil? You also have not answered my question. If what is "good" and what is "evil" is entirely relative as in your gun example in your earlier post, how do you know what God commands you to do is "good" or "evil"? And if you have no idea what God commands you to do, how do you know what it is God wants you to reap?

 

Hi Neon,

 

I said earlier

 

"Are you sure the rich are blessed? I suppose some are but let me tell you from experience that there are some very blessed poor people"

 

I suppose some are I said. You say I said that rich people are never blessed. Give me a break here.

 

I have read where God sends out a command to be perfect. The Bible does say that God's words always accomplish what they are sent out to do and will not return until perfectly done so if this is true then those words "Be perfect" have a lot to do! I see tose words as sent out to all creation.

 

I'm not sure what God wants me to reap but I know what I want to reap and that is peace, joy, comfort, contentment and so on. If there is a God then I would think and hope this is what God would have me reap.

 

The hard situations people go through almost totally confound me. I just read of a situation where women of babies were having there arms cut off so they couldn't hold their babies. This was done in some other country.

 

I have asked people, some Christian, that when a little girl is being violently raped in a parking lot......I ask where is God. I make them admit that God must be right there watching and even more than that, this God must be actually giving life to the rapist. God is sitting on the hood of another car watching this girl be raped!

 

There is cancer, and torture. Man's inhumanity to man.

 

Where is God in all this? If there is a God, this God is obviously right in the midst of the action, both sides.

 

This blows my mind and makes me lean toward the 'No God' arena.

 

Ya know what is interesting? Even with all the pain and misery people endure so many still cling to the hope God is real. Even those and many times especially those who are in the midst of the worst suffering still reach out to God. Go figure. This is more mysterious to me than why God not only allows horrible things to happen but must support and even create these horrible things.

 

Did you know the Bible clearly states that God created and creates evil? Is there evil in a city and God has not done it? amos 3. I, God create evil. isaiah 45 and many more.

 

Intereesting huh?

 

js

[justsomeone]

I'd suggest, if you're using the Hebrew word that then translates to greek, and thence to English as 'evil', you should use the Hebrew word... then we have a fighting chance of know what the hell you are jabbering on about

 

and I didn't say that you'd exhausted me, just my patience... and when that happens I become a pestilence... So cut the Heepisn faux humility, you dolt.

 

You dolt?

 

I think you are softening towards me.

 

Dolt is not as bad as some of the labels you've stuck me with.

 

You may be sending me love notes soon and let me tell you, although I like you and your style, I would rather you call me a dick head or something!

 

js, your thorn in the flesh

[Grandpa Harley]

Well, now you admit you're a troll... my work with you is done...

 

and I called you a 'dolt' since this is the Colosseum, not the Lion's Den

[justsomeone]

Well, now you admit you're a troll... my work with you is done...

 

and I called you a 'dolt' since this is the Colosseum, not the Lion's Den

 

I don't know about being a troll, but I will admit to being a seeker. You seem to be very sure of yourself so you can't understand I suppose.

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

Troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.

 

What's to understand? You stated your raison d'etre is to be a thorn in our side, thus... TROLL...

[justsomeone]

Troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.

 

What's to understand? You stated your raison d'etre is to be a thorn in our side, thus... TROLL...

 

I did call myself a thorn in your flesh and as I wrote it it did sound sly and devious I admit. I am sorry. I did not state that I am a thorn in everyone's side or that is my reason for being on this forum.

 

Gramps, do you often speak for the others on this forum? I wrote to you and very clearly stated my thoughts to you alone.

 

I was calling attention to the fact that I seem to be a thorn in your flesh and I said it with utmost respect for you, Gramps.

 

Thanks for the definition of a troll. I admit to posting controversial messages in an online community such as this forum. Wow, is that what a troll is? So everyone here tries to post non controversial messages and they hope no one will respond emotionally, ever?

 

I seek knowledge and insight and I have found this involves emotion often times. I hope for responses deep from within a person and that depth can cause emotional manifestations sometimes. Sometimes it is fun just to talk on the surface and be light but this too can cause an emotional response. What do you have against emotional responses?

 

I do not like the term baiting as it makes people on this board sound kind of stupid and I would never suggest or believe that. Gramps, you bait a fish. You discuss with other humans.

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

Unless you'd not noticed, I'm the only one who actually takes much notice of you... but that's because you're a troll and I enjoy baiting trolls...

 

Now, go away before I taunt you some more...

[justsomeone]

Unless you'd not noticed, I'm the only one who actually takes much notice of you... but that's because you're a troll and I enjoy baiting trolls...

 

Now, go away before I taunt you some more...

 

You have been patient with me, in your own way, of course.

 

There is so much good stuff on this forum that I thought everyone was too busy for me. I am not here to really engage as I am to learn so I did not notice not being noticed. Actually I am still a bit tied up here. I cannot pm or do some other things so it seems as though you are not the only one who is wary of me.

 

What are some of you so afraid of? Even if a troll did come to this forum but showed respect and followed the rules, why evict this troll or person?

 

Do you think someone will drag someone away from here? This forum seems well ordered and well visited and staffed and attended. It seems strong.

 

Why am I on such a short chain? And Gramps could you relay a message to an administrator for me. I have been writing but no response to me e-mail yet. I'm sure they are busy. Dave contacted me once but I cant' seem to get hold of him again.

 

I am wondering why I can't pm or do really much other than reply to topics, although I can start a new topic in some areas but not all.

 

If you could do this for me and let me know I would be greatly in your debt which of course is probably the last thing you want!!! But please from one human in need to another.....

 

You are all well protected, maybe too protected? I'm sure it's hard to run a forum like this and I'm sure I have no clue as to the problems of the caretakers of this forum so I really am not one to pass judgement so forgive me if I spoke too many words.

 

Thanks, Gramps. Even if you feel you shouldn't help me, I understand and thanks anyway.

 

js