Theodicy

[justsomeone]

Neon, again you asked....

 

I do not know why other people cause suffering, but this thread is not about why do people hurt other people. This thread is about why does God allow people to be hurt if he has the power to stop it. Do you even understand what this thread is about?

 

I do know what this thread is about, kind of. It is about theodicy and how it figures into someones deconversion. Theodicy is a defending of God's goodness esp in the presence of evil.

 

Sorry I got off track.

 

You asked.....

 

Why does God allow people to be hurt if he has the power to stop it?

 

I don't know but I can offer a thought or two. Same reason a parent will sometimes allow a child to touch a hot oven I suppose only with God it is on a much more major scale obviously. How do you know God will not stop all the hurt and pain and misery at some point.

 

Have you read the Bible? I seem to remember seeing something about God doing just as you think He should do. All tears will be wiped away, all wrongs righted and so on. If God stops all the hurt at some point then will this God be acceptable to you, Neon? Or must this God stop it in your time frame and in your way?

 

js

[Ouroboros]

I'm taking a gamble here but I do not agree with the other thing you wrote, which of course does not make it untrue but I just want your input.

 

You also said this "In the Garden, humans had the perfect "goodness", but by thinking about what is good and what is bad, they became human and had to, forever, strive to understand again."

 

When I read a book I try to interpret a book with the book itself. I think the author of this Adam and Eve garden story is saying we are made intentionally imperfect but according to the story, did not realize the imperfection until later. I think this is backed up by another author but within the same book. Jere 18 explains how the potter, referring to God I think all would agree, intentionally made a marred pot and then smashed it, killed it, and remade another perfectly. This also coincides with another story in the same book about a man called Paul teaching that it is always first the carnal or natural and then the spiritual.

 

If I am hearing you right, I think you are seeing differently than me as I do not see that humans had perfect goodness.

Does your view mean that Adam and Eve were made with a sinful nature from start? What about "and he saw it was good", what does that mean?

 

Were you some kind of prophet in another life? ha ha?

The funny thing is that I had several "prophesies" over me that I would become a prophet myself one day... so maybe I'm a prophet from No-God to make you believe in Nah-weh and Gee-sus?

[Neon Genesis]

I don't claim to know the mind of God.

If you don't claim to know the mind of God, why are you attempting to explain the mind of God to us by telling us why you think God allows suffering? By trying to explain to us why God allows suffering, aren't you claiming to know the mind of God? And if you don't know the mind of God, why do you think your attempts to justify God's actions in this thread are correct?

 

I'm not saying you should worship a hypocritical God and I don't think you ever should do so.

Then, why should we worship a God that creates evil but tells us not to do evil? Isn't that hypocripsy?

 

I think I commented on the balance of evil and good.

If evil is needed to balance good, why should we punish people for committing evil acts? Shouldn't we be encouraging evil acts then to keep good balanced? If good and evil are balanced, why are not all evil acts punished equally? Why is evil more rampant in some parts of the world than others? If evil is needed to balance good, does that mean I have the right to murder you to balance good in my life? Also, you still have not answered my question, if good and evil are entirely relative like you said in your example of the policeman, how do you know what God wants us to do is good or evil?

 

I don't think evil is needed to do this. I think it does this though just by making us more in depth creatures. Evil adds anothere dimension to who we are and what we do.

Wait, first you say evil isn't needed to keep our lives from being unpredictable, but then you turn around and say that it is needed in our lives. Which one is it? According to the bible, Jesus was perfect and without sin. Since you claim evil is needed to make us more "in-depth", are you saying Jesus had no depth because he was perfect? If "depth" is needed in our lives by committing evil acts, should we look to Jesus for moral guidance since he has no depth? Or did the bible lie and Jesus did in fact commit a sin?

 

How do you measure the amount of depthness that we need? Is there some scriptual basis to measure how much depth we need? And if evil is needed to add more depth to our lives, why is it that some people who suffer never mature and in fact they commit suicide to run away from their problems or resort to committing evil acts themselves? If evil really created depth in our lives, then wouldn't all people who suffered mature in their depthness? Since not all people who suffer mature in their depthness, doesn't that mean God's plan to use evil to keep our lives balanced failed and God is not perfect nor worthy of worship? If God is all-powerful, why couldn't he create a universe that allows us the free will to choose only good things but still give us depth at the same time? If God is all-powerful, why couldn't he create a world that could be balanced but without evil? Is God too weak to do these things? If God isn't strong enough to create a world that is balanced but without evil and that allows us the free will to choose good things, then is God still all-powerful? Why should we worship God if he isn't powerful enough to keep balance without evil? Doesn't this mean the balance of good and evil is greater than God because God's actions are restricted by it? Shouldn't we be worshipping this balance of good and evil instead of God then since God isn't powerful enough to create without it?

 

We should never worship a tyrannical God.

Then, why should we worship the Christian God? If slavery is immoral, why do you think it is moral for any God to demand worship? Do we say things are good because that's what God has to love or does God love things that are good because that's what God has to love? If God's will is so great that he dictates what is right and wrong, how does this make God any different from Adolf Hitler? Why is it moral for God to demand worship? If God must abide by standards of right and wrong that are higher than he is, what makes this God more special than us that God is allowed to create evil acts but forbid humans from doing evil?

 

I don't know if I understand the question. How do you determine who's prayers are being answered?

Didn't I say that you had to answer this question without using "God's mysterious ways" as a cop-out? Once again, you continue to dodge my questions and give me non-answers that sound like you're saying a lot but don't really mean anything. You should try asking HanSolo sometime if his prayers were ever answered.

 

Have I ever read the Bible? I have read most of it I suppose.

Then please tell me why God's actions in this page are justified: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm Also, please explain why God punished Sodom and Gamorah for their wickedness but God blessed Lots' daughters with nations of their own for raping their father. You are still dodging my questions.

 

That is a good point on the surface but maybe God does help them out at a different time and a different way than we know. You are probably talking about helping in an immediate way. If God helps and heals completely at some point then I suppose according to you God would be worthy of worship, correct?

Is there any scriptual basis for this? Doesn't God say to ask and ye shall recieve? It doesn't say "ask and ye shall recieve it some other time in a completely different way than what you asked to the point that you shouldn't have bothered asking in the first place." It says to ask and we will recieve. And if God eventually answers people's prayers in an undeteremined point in the future, why does God answer some people's prayers sooner than others? Doesn't this mean God is showing partiality when the bible says that God shows no partiality?

 

Let's pretend that God will answer our prayers in some undetermined time in the future. If a parent knew that their child was being raped and had the ability to save their child from being raped, but they didn't save their child from being raped, and in fact, they encouraged the rapist to rape their child because they thought the child needed to be raped, would the parent's actions be justified just because they make it up to their child in the future with hugs and kisses? Certainly not. The parent will still have to pay retribution for their actions in order for justice to be served. If a parent that allows their child to be raped and in fact encourages the rape isn't left off the hook just because they make it up with hugs and kisses in the future, why should God be justified in, not only letting us be suffered, but creating our suffering in the first place, just because he makes it up to us with hugs and kisses in some undeterimened point in the future that Christians have no proof will eventually happen?

[Neon Genesis]

I don't know but I can offer a thought or two. Same reason a parent will sometimes allow a child to touch a hot oven I suppose only with God it is on a much more major scale obviously. How do you know God will not stop all the hurt and pain and misery at some point.

 

Have you read the Bible? I seem to remember seeing something about God doing just as you think He should do. All tears will be wiped away, all wrongs righted and so on. If God stops all the hurt at some point then will this God be acceptable to you, Neon? Or must this God stop it in your time frame and in your way?

I hate the God/parent analogy. There are some major differences between God and a parent. First of all, parents are humans that are not perfect. Second of all, they do not claim to have supernatural powers that can stop their child from touching the stove. Third they do not demand all of humanity to bow down and worship them. God, however, does demand all of humanity to bown down and worship him, and God does claim to be perfect and have the power to stop people from being hurt but doesn't, so God has no excuse to allow a child to be hurt when he has the power to stop it. That is clearly child abuse.

[justsomeone]

I don't know but I can offer a thought or two. Same reason a parent will sometimes allow a child to touch a hot oven I suppose only with God it is on a much more major scale obviously. How do you know God will not stop all the hurt and pain and misery at some point.

 

Have you read the Bible? I seem to remember seeing something about God doing just as you think He should do. All tears will be wiped away, all wrongs righted and so on. If God stops all the hurt at some point then will this God be acceptable to you, Neon? Or must this God stop it in your time frame and in your way?

I hate the God/parent analogy. There are some major differences between God and a parent. First of all, parents are humans that are not perfect. Second of all, they do not claim to have supernatural powers that can stop their child from touching the stove. Third they do not demand all of humanity to bow down and worship them. God, however, does demand all of humanity to bown down and worship him, and God does claim to be perfect and have the power to stop people from being hurt but doesn't, so God has no excuse to allow a child to be hurt when he has the power to stop it. That is clearly child abuse.

 

Jeeeze Neon,

 

I can't answer all your questions. I just came from the Christmas thread where Han Solo summed it up perfectly I think.

 

He said "The True Christians are the ones that break free from the bondage of it. Like us."

 

Here are some other thoughts I have. To me the Bible portrays God as a complete rebel, killer, tyrant, baby slaughterer. Even Jesus decsribes God as a ornery guy sleeping and is bugged by somebody asking for something. Jesus is said to portray God as commending a bad servent who swindled the boss to get out of trouble. God is pictured as a terrible shepherd, leaving 99 sheep to after one. No good shepherd would do such a thig. Jesus makes God out to be a bad farmer, letting weeds grow with the wheat. Bad technique.

 

God does whatever He wants we are told. We, the inhabitants of earth are counted as nothing. Read Daniel 4.35 and all around that. Neon, we are counted as nothing, nada sip. This from the Bible itself. God does not care what you want. He is not asking you for anything nor does He require anything from you. You are dirt to him.

 

This is what the Bible says, not what I say.

 

You can rant and rave and question all day and find contradictions till the cows come home but the bottom line is the Bible says quite clearly that you and your questions and objections to God don't matter one whit to Him. Never did, never will. He could watch you get gang raped by a bunch of guys and He will let it all happen, If He exists it happens all the time.

 

Christians do not like this view of God but it is a view I present to them all the time. Well, not all the time anymore for not many talk to me anymore.

 

The Bible says God is vicious and a war monger. He takes, He kills, He does wahtever He wants and lughs at our puny attacks on Him.

 

If you have broken free from the mamby pamby God of orthodox Christianity you are well on the way to something good I think.

 

Hang in there friend.

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

I don't know but I can offer a thought or two. Same reason a parent will sometimes allow a child to touch a hot oven I suppose only with God it is on a much more major scale obviously. How do you know God will not stop all the hurt and pain and misery at some point.

 

Have you read the Bible? I seem to remember seeing something about God doing just as you think He should do. All tears will be wiped away, all wrongs righted and so on. If God stops all the hurt at some point then will this God be acceptable to you, Neon? Or must this God stop it in your time frame and in your way?

I hate the God/parent analogy. There are some major differences between God and a parent. First of all, parents are humans that are not perfect. Second of all, they do not claim to have supernatural powers that can stop their child from touching the stove. Third they do not demand all of humanity to bow down and worship them. God, however, does demand all of humanity to bown down and worship him, and God does claim to be perfect and have the power to stop people from being hurt but doesn't, so God has no excuse to allow a child to be hurt when he has the power to stop it. That is clearly child abuse.

 

One often gets into the tautilogical debate of 'Well, since God is perfect and that's the way things are then it must be our imperfect understanding and sinful nature that prevents use from seing God's perfection in it..." Seems to me God needs a lot of bodies in the foundations of his 'perfection'...

 

SOmething that has often also struck me on the God parent anaolgy... justification of the fear of God... I've have people explain well my kids know I love them, but they're scared of me too.. I was only afraid of my father if he had some sort of PTSD episode (you never made dad jump... baaad move... possibly fatal if he didn't recognise you as 'friend') I was scared of that side of my dad, but otherwise... fear and parenting are not good bedmates... and anyone who parents by fear should have their kids taken off them... IMO

[Neon Genesis]

Jeeeze Neon,

 

I can't answer all your questions.

So, why are you still trying again?

 

The Bible says God is vicious and a war monger. He takes, He kills, He does wahtever He wants and lughs at our puny attacks on Him.

You still continue to refuse to explain to me why this is moral and you still have not answered my questions in my previous posts. Don't you realize that by trying to rationalize God creating evil that you are advocating abuse, murder, rape, child molestation, stealing, cheating, lying, and any other immoral act you can think of? Don't you realize that this mentality "because God said so" is the exact same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use to justify their mass genocide because they believed God promised them 72 virgins? By admitting that your God is a "war monger", don't you realize that your God is no better than a terrorist and that you are essentially advocating terrorism by trying to justify God being vicious, a war monger, and killing and stealing whatever he wants? God is sick and disgusting, and you still refuse to answer why it is moral to worship him.

[ogilvy]

This is a question I wanted to ask as theodicy is such a hard topic for me. I have looked at the existance of evil and a good God and it does not make sense no matter what angle I see it from. This is my major area of wrestling.

 

I wondered if it figured into your deconversions and what ways you wrestled with it if it did?

sojourner

whats theodicy?? anyway, re existence of evil and a good God. this issue was mainly the one which is influencing me to turn away from my religion.

i've been able to accept that sin came to the world thru adam, we inherit it, and need to live thru Jesus to overcome our sinful nature. that makes sense. but my quesion was THEN WHY DID GOD CREATE HUMANS IN THE FIRST PLACE, KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME THAT MOST WOULD NOT FOLLOW HIM?

this really doesnt make sense.

if the garden of eden was God's ideal kingdom, why could he no have created humans in such a way as tht they would not sin? if, as christians tell me, this would not have been possible because God wanted us to have free will (btw this is nowhere mentioned in the bible), then it would have been better not to have created us at all. surely free will is not to be more highly regarded by God than humans being perfectly good?

if human scientists created a kingdom of clones, knowing they would inevitably introduce incredible pain and suffering into their kingdom, wouldnt we think they were evil or stupid to go through with creating the kingdom?

 

christians say God allows suffering for our eventual good, but that doesnt make sense. how is suffering good for those who never get saved? for those who go to hell? theres nothing good about suffering in hell.

 

God is said to be too pure to even look upon evil, so why did he create angels, knowing that lucifer would rebel and become satan? how can God have let evil come into a situation where there was previously no evil, only God, and therefore only good?

 

he didnt need to create, because he doesnt need anything.

 

would he want us to cause or allow others to suffer hunger, thirst and pain? obviously not. thats not considered a good way to treat people. so how can God himself punish and disciplne his people with drought and famine etc. and that be considered GOOD?

 

for this reason i think there are 2 options. one, not really an option for me, but christians say this, is to trust God that his ways are higher than ours, till all is made clear to us at the end. but no matter what Gods reason is, nothing can change the fact that sending drought and famine to people and animals is pure cruelty. i dont need to wait till the end of the world to know that. the other option is that the bible must be incorrect.

 

even so, if the bible is incorrect, is God, then, kind or cruel? from what i can see of the world, without referring to the bible, God seems cruel. or maybe there is no God at all. i dont know which is the worst case.

[Deva]

Here are some other thoughts I have. To me the Bible portrays God as a complete rebel, killer, tyrant, baby slaughterer. Even Jesus decsribes God as a ornery guy sleeping and is bugged by somebody asking for something. Jesus is said to portray God as commending a bad servent who swindled the boss to get out of trouble. God is pictured as a terrible shepherd, leaving 99 sheep to after one. No good shepherd would do such a thig. Jesus makes God out to be a bad farmer, letting weeds grow with the wheat. Bad technique.

 

So if I understand you correctly, you think that the God of the Old Testament is evil, but Jesus is "truth." So I take it you think they are separate. Or, perhaps you worship evil.

 

Do you think the "Old Testament" should be discarded and the New kept? What about Jesus calling God father? Doesn't that point to a connection between the two? How about the actions of Jesus as depicted in the Book of Revelation? He comes to destroy. How is he different in that respect from the God of the Old Testament?

 

If you would prefer not answering my questions because I don't give complete enough answers to yours-- that's OK, but I really don't understand why you value the Bible so much, especially in view of your comments above.

[Deva]

whats theodicy?? anyway, re existence of evil and a good God. this issue was mainly the one which is influencing me to turn away from my religion.

 

I think that theodicy refers to a topic in theology that involves just this issue you mention. The attributes of god and the problem of evil. I don't think most Christians give enough thought to this problem of evil. Its a major difficulty that God is presented as being good, like a father, a shephard, kindly disposed towards us and also omnipotent and omniscient. Yet we look at the state of the world and this simply does not make sense.

 

i've been able to accept that sin came to the world thru adam, we inherit it, and need to live thru Jesus to overcome our sinful nature. that makes sense. but my quesion was THEN WHY DID GOD CREATE HUMANS IN THE FIRST PLACE, KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME THAT MOST WOULD NOT FOLLOW HIM?

 

I think it is interesting that you accept the notion of inherited sin and that it came into the world through Adam. To me, this idea should be deeply questioned. It does not make any more sense literally, than the capitalized part of your sentence. Metaphorically you could say that maybe it symbolizes people becoming aware of themselves, gaining knowledge of a duality in consciousness and therefore becoming separated from the whole, which is God. There are many ways of interpretating this story. One thing is clear--there is absolutely no evidence that there was ever such a thing as some kind of sinless, perfect world.

 

What is "sin" anyway? Violation of the standards of a perfect God? In the Bible sin goes way beyond being just a violation of morals to some kind of universal contaminant that ruined nature. To me, sin exists only as a concept in the minds of human beings.

 

The rest of your questions are all good. Christians want God to be soverign and all powerful but logically don't think the implications of that out. They usually end up, as you say with "trust God that his ways are higher than ours, till all is made clear to us at the end." So we have to live with a confusing, contradictory God. A God who sets standards of morality for his creations but does not operated by those standards himself. Our lives and our minds must therefore be confused and contradictory. To me, this is not a tolerable state to live your life in.

 

My advice--throw Biblegod out, then see what happens.

[justsomeone]

Jeeeze Neon,

 

I can't answer all your questions.

So, why are you still trying again?

 

The Bible says God is vicious and a war monger. He takes, He kills, He does wahtever He wants and lughs at our puny attacks on Him.

You still continue to refuse to explain to me why this is moral and you still have not answered my questions in my previous posts. Don't you realize that by trying to rationalize God creating evil that you are advocating abuse, murder, rape, child molestation, stealing, cheating, lying, and any other immoral act you can think of? Don't you realize that this mentality "because God said so" is the exact same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use to justify their mass genocide because they believed God promised them 72 virgins? By admitting that your God is a "war monger", don't you realize that your God is no better than a terrorist and that you are essentially advocating terrorism by trying to justify God being vicious, a war monger, and killing and stealing whatever he wants? God is sick and disgusting, and you still refuse to answer why it is moral to worship him.

 

 

Hi Neon,

 

You ask

 

"So, why are you still trying again?"

 

Because I see value in you. Because I respect you. Because if we keep dialoging I will learn.

 

You ask and state

 

"You still continue to refuse to explain to me why this is moral and you still have not answered my questions in my previous posts."

 

I never said God is moral. As a matter of fact, anyone who is described as killing a bunch of people who will not come to his party is not moral as I understand morality. Don't put words in my mouth via assumptions.

 

You ask

 

"Don't you realize that by trying to rationalize God creating evil that you are advocating abuse, murder, rape, child molestation, stealing, cheating, lying, and any other immoral act you can think of?"

 

I am not rationalizing God creating evil. I have just stated what the Bible says about God creating evil. I am not advocating any such thing, I am simply stating what the Bible says.

 

You ask

 

"Don't you realize that this mentality "because God said so" is the exact same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use to justify their mass genocide because they believed God promised them 72 virgins?"

 

If someone does something just on the basis of thinking that 'God said so' then who am I to argue. If I disagree with what this someone will do then I should take appropriate action to stop this person, God or no God, but to say God said to do something or not seems a personal call to me.

 

And Neon, I do not realize that this is the same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use. I am not privelaged to get into the minds of all these people to see all the 'whys' of what they do. You seem to be the expert here.

 

You ask

 

"By admitting that your God is a "war monger", don't you realize that your God is no better than a terrorist and that you are essentially advocating terrorism by trying to justify God being vicious, a war monger, and killing and stealing whatever he wants?"

 

I only admitted how the Bible portrayed God. Neon, be very careful when you say 'Your God' to me. You have no idea who my God is so even go there. I do not have to nor should I ever try to 'justify' God in any way shape of form so don't accuse me of 'trying to justify God'. Another bad assumption on your part.

 

You comment

 

"God is sick and disgusting, and you still refuse to answer why it is moral to worship him."

 

Neon, many of your comments and assumptions are sick and disgusting but I do see that they are from your heart so I will always try to see what lies behind them. I sense you are a good person seeking light and sanity in a dark and insane world.

 

As to why is it moral to worship God.

 

Morality doesn't enter into it in my mind. If you believe God exists and has given you life, then of course you should worship this God and trust that this God may know more about things than you do from your puny perspective but if you don't believe God exists then it would be hypocrtical and meaningless of you to 'worship' Him.

 

js

[Alice]

If someone does something just on the basis of thinking that 'God said so' then who am I to argue. If I disagree with what this someone will do then I should take appropriate action to stop this person, God or no God, but to say God said to do something or not seems a personal call to me.

 

And Neon, I do not realize that this is the same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use. I am not priviledged to get into the minds of all these people to see all the 'whys' of what they do. You seem to be the expert here.

 

JS,

 

can you not see that there is a difference between 'I say ...' and 'God say's ...' in terms of the weight that this gives to the pronouncement - for those that believe in God?

 

I understand and agree that those listening should not make their decision on whether to accept a pronouncement on the basis of whether it is claimed that God said it or not - the decision should be made on the content of the pronouncement ... but many many people the world over ARE making decisons on the basis of believing that certain pronouncements have come from god.

 

You can see this can't you?

[justsomeone]

Here are some other thoughts I have. To me the Bible portrays God as a complete rebel, killer, tyrant, baby slaughterer. Even Jesus decsribes God as a ornery guy sleeping and is bugged by somebody asking for something. Jesus is said to portray God as commending a bad servent who swindled the boss to get out of trouble. God is pictured as a terrible shepherd, leaving 99 sheep to after one. No good shepherd would do such a thig. Jesus makes God out to be a bad farmer, letting weeds grow with the wheat. Bad technique.

 

So if I understand you correctly, you think that the God of the Old Testament is evil, but Jesus is "truth." So I take it you think they are separate. Or, perhaps you worship evil.

 

Do you think the "Old Testament" should be discarded and the New kept? What about Jesus calling God father? Doesn't that point to a connection between the two? How about the actions of Jesus as depicted in the Book of Revelation? He comes to destroy. How is he different in that respect from the God of the Old Testament?

 

If you would prefer not answering my questions because I don't give complete enough answers to yours-- that's OK, but I really don't understand why you value the Bible so much, especially in view of your comments above.

 

Hi Deva,

 

You ask

 

"So if I understand you correctly, you think that the God of the Old Testament is evil, but Jesus is "truth."

 

No you do not understand me correctly at all. Sorry, probably my fault.

 

You ask

 

"So I take it you think they are separate."

 

Yes and no. I think Jesus and God are represented in the Bible as separate and as one. "I and my Father are one." Yet Jesus talks to someone seemingly outside of himself doesn't he? Kind of like a mother and daughter. They are one yet separate.

 

You seem to ask

 

"Or, perhaps you worship evil. "

 

I do not worship evil as I understand worship. I give it it's due place in the grand scheme of things but I do not worship it so be careful what you might assume here.

 

You ask

 

"Do you think the "Old Testament" should be discarded and the New kept?"

 

I do not really see old and new. I see a complete work. I see one work. This one work should be kept or discarded as each individual deems necessary to their well being.

 

You ask

 

"What about Jesus calling God father? Doesn't that point to a connection between the two?"

 

Covered those two questions.

 

You ask

 

"How about the actions of Jesus as depicted in the Book of Revelation? He comes to destroy. How is he different in that respect from the God of the Old Testament?"

 

God is said to destroy, as is Jesus as are some people. In this way all are acting alike, no difference except maybe in the motives.

 

You state

 

"If you would prefer not answering my questions because I don't give complete enough answers to yours-- that's OK, but I really don't understand why you value the Bible so much, especially in view of your comments above."

 

Obvioulsy I do prefer to answer your questions. I find many of them insightful and thought provoking and I thank you for them.

 

I have never said that I 'value the Bible so much'. You are assuming this. I have commented much on the Bible because you have asked me much about things in the Bible. I have a little personal knowledge of the Bible as do so many on this forum so I think it is respectful of me to comment on your questions. If you asked me about the rationality of eating dog poop I would also comment on that but it doesn't neccesarily make me 'value eating dog poop so much'.

 

js

[justsomeone]

If someone does something just on the basis of thinking that 'God said so' then who am I to argue. If I disagree with what this someone will do then I should take appropriate action to stop this person, God or no God, but to say God said to do something or not seems a personal call to me.

 

And Neon, I do not realize that this is the same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use. I am not priviledged to get into the minds of all these people to see all the 'whys' of what they do. You seem to be the expert here.

 

JS,

 

can you not see that there is a difference between 'I say ...' and 'God say's ...' in terms of the weight that this gives to the pronouncement - for those that believe in God?

 

I understand and agree that those listening should not make their decision on whether to accept a pronouncement on the basis of whether it is claimed that God said it or not - the decision should be made on the content of the pronouncement ... but many many people the world over ARE making decisons on the basis of believing that certain pronouncements have come from god.

 

You can see this can't you?

 

Hi Alice,

 

You ask

 

"can you not see that there is a difference between 'I say ...' and 'God say's ...' in terms of the weight that this gives to the pronouncement - for those that believe in God?"

 

I see the difference but I don't fully understand the last part of this question.

 

You comment

 

"I understand and agree that those listening should not make their decision on whether to accept a pronouncement on the basis of whether it is claimed that God said it or not - the decision should be made on the content of the pronouncement ... but many many people the world over ARE making decisons on the basis of believing that certain pronouncements have come from god."

 

I am not responsible for how 'many people' make decisions, not even my own kids. I will seek to influence others to do as I see as right but only to a point and only with total respect for their freedoms of thought and choice.

 

If someone makes a decision thinking God told them to do this or that then that is on thier heads so to speak. I will act as I believe I need to to support or stop them.

 

js

[Deva]

"So if I understand you correctly, you think that the God of the Old Testament is evil, but Jesus is "truth."[/b]

No you do not understand me correctly at all. Sorry, probably my fault.

 

So since I have completely misunderstood you, if you don't mind going into it, what is your view of God-- what are his attributes? If you have ideas from outside of the Bible, I would appreciate hearing them.

 

I think Jesus and God are represented in the Bible as separate and as one. "I and my Father are one." Yet Jesus talks to someone seemingly outside of himself doesn't he? Kind of like a mother and daughter. They are one yet separate.

 

So does this mean you accept the orthodox view of the Trinity, one yet separate persons?

 

I do not worship evil as I understand worship. I give it it's due place in the grand scheme of things but I do not worship it so be careful what you might assume here.

 

I didn't really think you meant that. I just could not understand the emphasis you put on how God is so "evil."

 

I have never said that I 'value the Bible so much'. You are assuming this

 

js, you said:

 

I know you may not be interested but I want to say why I equate Jesus with truth. According to the Bible Jesus is said to be the truth, personified. You know, I am the way, the truth and the life.

 

So you gave your reason why you equated Jesus with truth-- you referred to the Bible. I naturally thought from this statement that you give the Bible some special value or authority. It was a bit of an assumption but I think it does follow from your own statement.

[Ouroboros]

Justsomeone,

 

Can you please make your responses smaller by removing unnecessary parts? You don't have to say "You asked", it's enough with bolding their question, and secondly you can also remove most of the text in the quote from the other person, since we all can go back and read the original quote if we want to. We don't have to have the same quotes repeated over and over again within a quote and that one within the next one and so in recursively. Do you understand what I'm saying? Use this as a guideline: Save space, make it short, because of two reasons: the server is paid by a private person who can't keep on buying hard disks because we want to quote the whole encyclopedia each time we post, and secondly, people don't read long posts, so if you want to be noticed, be concise.

[justsomeone]

Justsomeone,

 

Can you please make your responses smaller by removing unnecessary parts? You don't have to say "You asked", it's enough with bolding their question, and secondly you can also remove most of the text in the quote from the other person, since we all can go back and read the original quote if we want to. We don't have to have the same quotes repeated over and over again within a quote and that one within the next one and so in recursively. Do you understand what I'm saying? Use this as a guideline: Save space, make it short, because of two reasons: the server is paid by a private person who can't keep on bying harddisks because we want to quote the whole encyclopedia each time we post, and secondly, people don't read long posts, so if you want to be noticed, be concise.

 

I am a very spartan kind of person so I am trying to be more concise. I don't know how to do some things but I will practice and learn.

 

Will do.

 

Thanks, Han.

 

js

[justsomeone]

Han,

 

Oooooops did it again.

 

How's this?

 

js

[SWIM]

I am a very spartan kind of person so I am trying to be more concise. I don't know how to do some things but I will practice and learn.

 

 

Just highlight areas you need to delete and hit "delete". Just be careful to leave quote tags intact.

 

Yes hans, MEGA quoting does get old fast... lol

[Ouroboros]

Instead of doing this:

 

Justsomeone,

 

Can you please make your responses smaller by removing unnecessary parts? You don't have to say "You asked", it's enough with bolding their question, and secondly you can also remove most of the text in the quote from the other person, since we all can go back and read the original quote if we want to. We don't have to have the same quotes repeated over and over again within a quote and that one within the next one and so in recursively. Do you understand what I'm saying? Use this as a guideline: Save space, make it short, because of two reasons: the server is paid by a private person who can't keep on bying harddisks because we want to quote the whole encyclopedia each time we post, and secondly, people don't read long posts, so if you want to be noticed, be concise.

 

you can do this:

 

Justsomeone,

...

 

And if someone wants to read the original quote they click on the link (the little red arrow just after the date)... it's magic.

 

Maybe one day I will make an introductory video for forum rookies, how to respond and quote sparingly, and the rules of conduct (the few we have).

[Neon Genesis]

Because I see value in you. Because I respect you. Because if we keep dialoging I will learn.

You said earlier in the thread though that you can't explain the mind of God. If the mind of God can't be explained, why are you explaining the mind of God in your posts?

 

I never said God is moral. As a matter of fact, anyone who is described as killing a bunch of people who will not come to his party is not moral as I understand morality. Don't put words in my mouth via assumptions.

So, why should we be worshipping God? Unless you're somehow implying that tryanny is justified?

 

 

I am not rationalizing God creating evil. I have just stated what the Bible says about God creating evil. I am not advocating any such thing, I am simply stating what the Bible says.

For the last two or so pages in this thread, you've been rambling on about how evil is needed in this world to maintain balance with good, so you most certainly have been justifying evil.

 

If someone does something just on the basis of thinking that 'God said so' then who am I to argue. If I disagree with what this someone will do then I should take appropriate action to stop this person, God or no God, but to say God said to do something or not seems a personal call to me.

This makes no sense. First you say, that you can't argue with someone that does something on the basis of "God said so." Then you turn around and say if you disagree with them you'll take appropriate action. If you're taking appropriate action against that person, then you are in fact arguging with them on the basis of using the thinking that "God said so", otherwise you wouldn't take "appropriate action" against them if you truly didn't argue with them. Your reasonings are flip-floppy and inconcisent.

 

And Neon, I do not realize that this is the same mentality that al-qaida terrorists use. I am not privelaged to get into the minds of all these people to see all the 'whys' of what they do. You seem to be the expert here.

Last I checked, you were the one acting like an expert on evil here by saying evil is needed in the world, not me. Furthermore, you don't need to be an expert to realize the mentality of al-qaida terrorists when they're the ones making their proclamations for all the world to see. If you aren't "privelaged" to get into the minds of others to understand their mentality, why are you trying to get into the mind of God to explain his mentality to us?

 

I only admitted how the Bible portrayed God. Neon, be very careful when you say 'Your God' to me. You have no idea who my God is so even go there. I do not have to nor should I ever try to 'justify' God in any way shape of form so don't accuse me of 'trying to justify God'. Another bad assumption on your part.

Yet in the last two pages or so in this thread, you've been posting about why evil is needed in this world. According to dictionary.com, the word justify means, "to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded, to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something done." By trying to explain to us why evil is needed in this world to maintain balance with good, you are defending and upholding the existence of evil as being well-grounded and warranted for God in order to manitain balance with good. By trying to explain to us why evil is needed in this world to maintain balance with good, you are also showing us what you apparently think this is a satisfactory reason and excuse for God allowing evil. According to the dictonary, this is what justify means and this is exactly what you're doing by telling us that rape, child molestation, and murder are needed for good. So, don't try to lie to us that you aren't justifying God, otherwise you wouldn't even be in this thread. You're no different than those fundies who think it's not judgemental for them to say that other people are going to hell because the bible says so.

 

As to why is it moral to worship God.

 

Morality doesn't enter into it in my mind. If you believe God exists and has given you life, then of course you should worship this God and trust that this God may know more about things than you do from your puny perspective but if you don't believe God exists then it would be hypocrtical and meaningless of you to 'worship' Him.

 

js

And yet you continue to wonder why this mentality is being compared to the mentality of an al-qaida terrorist.

[justsomeone]

Hi again Neon,

 

Your words in bold.

 

You said earlier in the thread though that you can't explain the mind of God. If the mind of God can't be explained, why are you explaining the mind of God in your posts?

 

I am a poor communicator and this is not false humility. It has been proven in my time here so forgive me. I will keep trying to help you see what I am saying if you stay patient with me.

 

How can I know the mind of God? I only say what I think. God is too far out there for me to even know if God exists much less know the mind of God.

 

why should we be worshipping God? Unless you're somehow implying that tryanny is justified?

 

You should worship only a God you are convinced in your heart it is a good God. Tyranny, in my book, is never justified.

 

For the last two or so pages in this thread, you've been rambling on about how evil is needed in this world to maintain balance with good, so you most certainly have been justifying evil.

 

Evil to me means a smashing or breaking. I do not adhere to the meaning that it means a moral wrong. I get this meaning from the Hebrew language as used in the Bible. Doing wrong and doing evil are two different things to me. Evil, to me, is amoral.

 

So much in our lives are kind of yin and yang. Hot and cold, black and white, tall and short, and so on. Would you know cold if you never knew hot?

 

First you say, that you can't argue with someone that does something on the basis of "God said so." Then you turn around and say if you disagree with them you'll take appropriate action.

 

What I mean is that if someone is convinced that God told them to do something I probably will not be able to talk them out of doing it BUT I CAN try to stop them if I deem it appropriate.

 

You're no different than those fundies who think it's not judgemental for them to say that other people are going to hell because the bible says so.

 

I abhor it when someone thinks he is better than someone else. We would have to walk in another's shoes for a very long time and be very wise to judge someone else. To be so arrogant as to say you know what the Bible says, like telling someone they are going to hell, makes me very upset too. I will only say what I think a writing is trying to say.

 

So Neon, I hope I am different than those who do as you say. I was not always this way but I hope I have grown some in my years here on earth.

 

Hope I didn't miss anything you wanted to know. Your time to discuss these things with me is appreciated and I mean it.

 

js

[Neon Genesis]

How can I know the mind of God? I only say what I think. God is too far out there for me to even know if God exists much less know the mind of God.

And yet once again you're explaining the mind of God. And if God is "so far out there" for you to not to be able to understand his mind, by saying that you can't know the mind of God, aren't you in fact claiming to know something about God since explaining God to be unexplainable is in fact an explaniation about God?

 

 

 

You should worship only a God you are convinced in your heart it is a good God. Tyranny, in my book, is never justified.

So, how is a God that needs to create evil and does not care about whether or not its actions are moral like the God you described in your previous post not a tyrant?

 

 

 

So much in our lives are kind of yin and yang. Hot and cold, black and white, tall and short, and so on. Would you know cold if you never knew hot?

If God is all-powerful, why couldn't he create a world where we would know what hot is without cold? Is God too weak to do so? And I fail to see what this has to do with why God answers some people's prayers but not others. You also didn't answer my previous questions. If "evil" is needed to balance "good", why should we punish people who commit crimes? Shouldn't we be encouraging people to commit crimes to balance the "good" in our lives? And you do know that you're still trying to justify a God that allows rape, murder, and child abuse, right?

 

 

I abhor it when someone thinks he is better than someone else. We would have to walk in another's shoes for a very long time and be very wise to judge someone else. To be so arrogant as to say you know what the Bible says, like telling someone they are going to hell, makes me very upset too. I will only say what I think a writing is trying to say.

And you calling the God of other Christians who don't adhere to your beliefs as "mampy pamby" isn't being judgemental? Last I checked, weren't you the one who said we were all ex-bullshit, not ex-Christian and callng all those other Christians whose beliefs are different from yours "junk?"

[justsomeone]

How can I know the mind of God? I only say what I think. God is too far out there for me to even know if God exists much less know the mind of God.

And yet once again you're explaining the mind of God. And if God is "so far out there" for you to not to be able to understand his mind, by saying that you can't know the mind of God, aren't you in fact claiming to know something about God since explaining God to be unexplainable is in fact an explaniation about God?

 

 

 

You should worship only a God you are convinced in your heart it is a good God. Tyranny, in my book, is never justified.

So, how is a God that needs to create evil and does not care about whether or not its actions are moral like the God you described in your previous post not a tyrant?

 

 

 

So much in our lives are kind of yin and yang. Hot and cold, black and white, tall and short, and so on. Would you know cold if you never knew hot?

If God is all-powerful, why couldn't he create a world where we would know what hot is without cold? Is God too weak to do so? And I fail to see what this has to do with why God answers some people's prayers but not others. You also didn't answer my previous questions. If "evil" is needed to balance "good", why should we punish people who commit crimes? Shouldn't we be encouraging people to commit crimes to balance the "good" in our lives? And you do know that you're still trying to justify a God that allows rape, murder, and child abuse, right?

 

 

I abhor it when someone thinks he is better than someone else. We would have to walk in another's shoes for a very long time and be very wise to judge someone else. To be so arrogant as to say you know what the Bible says, like telling someone they are going to hell, makes me very upset too. I will only say what I think a writing is trying to say.

And you calling the God of other Christians who don't adhere to your beliefs as "mampy pamby" isn't being judgemental? Last I checked, weren't you the one who said we were all ex-bullshit, not ex-Christian and callng all those other Christians whose beliefs are different from yours "junk?"

 

Oh Neon, we have to talk sometime, but this thread will do for now.

 

I have to go now but I will respond tomorrow morning.

 

js

[justsomeone]

Hi Neon, It is 4am and I connot sleep because of your questions, thank you very much! Seriously though I do thank you because they are worthwhile questions and I am glad to be thinking of such things.

 

Your words in bold.

 

And you calling the God of other Christians who don't adhere to your beliefs as "mampy pamby" isn't being judgemental? Last I checked, weren't you the one who said we were all ex-bullshit, not ex-Christian and callng all those other Christians whose beliefs are different from yours "junk?"

 

I would never base my judgement of another on whether they adhere to my beliefs or not. I do believe there is 'junk' out there and in me. This to me is a fact, not a judgement.

 

Let me explain the title of my thread in the Lion's Den again.

 

It is titled (and spelled wrong), Exchristian = ex bullshit.

 

The following is and was my thinking when I made up that title. These are not new thoughts to me and I have explained this to others many times in the past. I do not mean just here but before I came here.

 

If there is a God who is perfect.......knows all, is everwhere, etc. and this God created us then at our core would be perfection and this perfection

in us could not deny itself. In other words I have said for years that no one can see God as God truly is and deny this God. If this is true then if someone is rejecting God, what they are rejecting is not God but a perverse image of God.

 

I tell especially Christians that no one rejects God but some do reject their verson or brand of God.

 

This is what I see here at this forum. I see people who have rejected bullshit, not God. Thus when I saw the title of this forum "ExChristian.net", my mind saw people that are not ex Christain or ex truth as I explained in other posts, but I saw a people that are ex bullshit thus my title, exchristian = ex bs.

 

I do see that my wording was atrocious so I do not blame anyone for not seeing my thoughts. You are rejecting garbage, Neon, not God, not truth. Again I equate Jesus Christ with truth as it says in the Bible and this forum is not ex truth. On the contrary I see a seeking of truth unequaled by much of what I see in the Christian realm. This is not judging, Neon, this is what I observe.

 

I have been accused that this was not my intention but if anyone would look at my posts since then I think I would be vindicated.

 

And if God is "so far out there" for you to not to be able to understand his mind, by saying that you can't know the mind of God, aren't you in fact claiming to know something about God since explaining God to be unexplainable is in fact an explaniation about God?

 

I did not say this. I said or think I said that God is so far out there that I cannot comprehend this supposed God. Whether God is explainable or not is up to God and the individual.

 

So, how is a God that needs to create evil and does not care about whether or not its actions are moral like the God you described in your previous post not a tyrant?

 

If there is a God as is depicted in the Bible then I do not believe this God NEEDS to do anything. I did not say God does not care about whether it's actions are moral or not.

 

Please read my posts more carefully or put my exact words in quotes more often when referring to them. I look back and just cannot find where I wrote some of the things you say I write. I am also a proven slob when it comes to communicating my thoughts so I do not blame you for being confused by my words.

 

Back to your question.

 

God would not be a tyrant if this God's ultimate plan was the creating of man into a better being. In other words if there is purpose, good purpose to all, for evil to exist then the end would justify the means, wouldn't it?

 

Now you may ask "So evil is needed to perfect man?"

 

I would say that if this God is using evil to this end then I would say this God thinks so. Not that there may not be a myriad of other ways to make man but this is the way this God chose to do it. I am just surmising.

 

If God is all-powerful, why couldn't he create a world where we would know what hot is without cold? Is God too weak to do so?

 

You evaded my question. Neon, would you know cold as you do now apart from knowing hot?

 

You ask a good question. To respond to it I would say that I don't think so. At least I don't think I would know and understand cold as I do without knowing hot.

 

I have a hard time applying 'weak and strong' to God.

 

And I fail to see what this has to do with why God answers some people's prayers but not others.

 

I once asked you how you know whose prayers are answered and whose are not. How do you know some are not answered?

 

If "evil" is needed to balance "good", why should we punish people who commit crimes?

 

We should punish people who do wrong in the hopes of correcting said people. Again see my definition of evil.

 

Shouldn't we be encouraging people to commit crimes to balance the "good" in our lives?

 

No we shouldn't because we don't need to. People will commit crimes without encouragment from us.

 

Neon, here is my take on why people do wrong. This may help or it may confuse even more. I hope it helps.

 

I do not believe we have free will but I do believe we have some freedom of will. In other words I cannot jump across the Atlantic ocean just because I may will it but I do think I can 'will' whether I put salt on my eggs or not.

 

Now I'm not saying that even putting salt on my eggs or not says I have free will because there is a reason I even want to put salt on my eggs but hopefully you get the drift of what I am trying to say.

 

Take my kids. They have a will and I have a will concerning how this household is run. When their will lines up with mine all is well but when their will is opposed to mine then all hell may break loose. Now my will is supreme in this situation, it governs all other wills but I choose to give the kids as much 'freedom' as I dare so they can grow in their unique individuality.

 

When viewing the authors of the Bible take of God allowing people to do wrong things I see that God is doing similar with man only of course on a much grander scale. This scale is so much bigger and complex that it is beyond my comprehension. Like why does God allow a child to be sexually abused. Why doesn't this God stop it.

 

My will in my household may be to not write on the walls with a crayon. One of my kids may will to do it. I may even let this child write on the wall without him knowing I know he is doing it. Then I would approach him and confront him with my will verses his and punishment would insue.

 

Why would I choose not to stop him sometimes in this manner?

 

I would be trying to teach him that wrong actions have consequences.

 

If I looked at the walls a week later and saw no markings I would congratulate him.

 

Why?

 

To show him that obeying my will has rewards.

 

So, I see the teaching of the God of the Bible as allowing us a certain freedom to allow us to be unique and it is the abuse or misuse of this freedom that creates our consequences.

 

Now, to be sure if what I see is true then the problem is the difference in degree of our freedoms. I mean allowing someone to write on a wall is in a whole other ballpark than allowing someone to rape another but again I say, IMO God is working on a much grander scale than I can even imagine, if this God exists.

 

Hope this 'answers' all your questions. I know you will let me know if I didn't and I also know I have probably created many more questions because of my responses. That's how it works I guess. I have spent much time thinking about and responding so please take time to peruse my words. Please do not look at them as just words to be fought against or argued about.

 

js