Theodicy

[justsomeone]

I find that sort of Uriah Heep-esque faux humbleness quite sickening and I'm now at a loss as to why anyone is actually taking his rambles even semi-seriously

 

Frankly speaking Gramps, I too wonder why anyone takes me seriously. Don't worry about me getting any kind of big head though because even my wife and kids don't take me too seriously!

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

QED on the Uriah Heep faux humbleness...

[Deva]

Did I miss something or is this your whole response to what I wrote?

 

js

 

Nope. That's the whole response.

[Grandpa Harley]

*Go Deva*

[justsomeone]

Did I miss something or is this your whole response to what I wrote?

 

js

 

Nope. That's the whole response.

 

Hey Deva, what's a halfway Hindu determinist?

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

Isn't the ignore function marvellous?

[SWIM]

Some are still afraid to come out as an atheist. I don't have that problem.

 

Michael, with all due respect, implying that those on this site who are not atheists are "afraid" is something I don't think I have heard from you before. Am I hearing you right?

 

There is one on this site, he's new and afraid to come out as ex, but with good reason and also most all here advised him not to. But I was not really refering to this *site* but atheists in general are treated like "do do" (coliseum...) by xtians.

 

Yeah Deva, I guess it reads a bit "wrong" reading over it..

[SWIM]

Some are still afraid to come out as an atheist. I don't have that problem.

 

Michael, with all due respect, implying that those on this site who are not atheists are "afraid" is something I don't think I have heard from you before. Am I hearing you right?

 

Acting as the Big M's Jesuit here... no, he means there are some people who have stated that, due to domestic circumstance, they dare not reveal publicly, their atheism, other than on here... they are scared of spouses or blood kin doing something to them for their Satan led apostasy.

 

 

OK, if that's what he meant, that's fine.

 

I'd never dis my buddies here

[SWIM]

Can some one tell Troll boy I was talking about him, not to him...

 

I find it hard to beleive that one of the mods here would be so over zealous that Dave had to over rule them... just another troll tactic...

 

I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe as well. Mods here are not over-zealous at all from what I have seen, in fact they are quite tolerant to the visiting air-heads.

[SWIM]

Isn't the ignore function marvellous?

 

 

Yes it is! I had to use it before for PM when one "chibby" decided to try opening preaching dialog with me in PM. I love the ignore/block function!

[Ouroboros]

I find it hard to beleive that one of the mods here would be so over zealous that Dave had to over rule them... just another troll tactic...

 

Nah, the story is: I decided to throw his sorry ass out, because his first posts were quite trollish, but then he PM-ed Dave and asked for a second chance, and he said he made a mistake in his first posts, so Dave asked me if I would let him in again or if we would keep him out. So we mutually agreed to let him in again, but we have no problem what-so-ever to kick him out again, if so needed.

[justsomeone]

Can some one tell Troll boy I was talking about him, not to him...

 

I find it hard to beleive that one of the mods here would be so over zealous that Dave had to over rule them... just another troll tactic...

 

I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe as well. Mods here are not over-zealous at all from what I have seen, in fact they are quite tolerant to the visiting air-heads.

 

I think Han Solo explained the situation.

 

I never said any moderator was over-zealous that Dave had to over rule them. I think Gramps is putting words in other people's mouths again. I have always expressed admiration and respect for how I see the moderators working here. They are not lazy and it is no small thing to take time to do this kind of thing.

 

I think we should refrain from this kind of talk and if anyone doubts anything a moderator did or is doing then that person should go straight to said moderator and check on the validity of the concern. PM the moderator. What they do or don't do should be held in confidence unless they themselves choose to open the issue.

 

With respect to all,

 

js

[justsomeone]

I find it hard to beleive that one of the mods here would be so over zealous that Dave had to over rule them... just another troll tactic...

 

Nah, the story is: I decided to throw his sorry ass out, because his first posts were quite trollish, but then he PM-ed Dave and asked for a second chance, and he said he made a mistake in his first posts, so Dave asked me if I would let him in again or if we would keep him out. So we mutually agreed to let him in again, but we have no problem what-so-ever to kick him out again, if so needed.

 

I am well warned, again.

 

Our posts kind of crossed. Hope I didn't speak out of place, Han.

 

Do you think I can get pm privlages?

 

js

[Ouroboros]

I do stand corrected about the tree. But in Isaiah 45.7 it says God creates evil. Amos 3.6 and so on. Many many more. This God does not seem to shirk responsibility.

Yes, I know. My comment was in context of the Genesis story, and not what the Bible say later. I should have made it more clear. Sorry.

 

I like that knowledge part too because it says to me that evil was in existence already but the knowledge was not. In other words I think Adam and Eve were not perfect (evil) but did not know it until they ate and then the knowledge came. Practically this tells me the author of this story may be trying to say that we people are not as perfect as we may think we are and life's situations will make that abundantly clear to us at some point.

And it also tells us that philosophizing and pondering about right vs wrong etc is what makes us human. We go from the "I know it all - godlike" creature to the "I have my doubts and I have to wonder and reason" creature. It's when we realize that things aren't as black-and-white, that we leave our own Eden.

 

In the Garden, humans had the perfect "goodness", but by thinking about what is good and what is bad, they became human and had to, forever, strive to understand again. It's also the transition from childhood, and the innocent trust in authority, into adulthood and responsibility and becoming that authority. It's a hard path from our "eden" of childhood, into the rough world of work, family, taxes etc.

 

I really see your point about the building. I too love a good construction site, even the ones I make myself at home here. There is something satisfying in a job in progress. But I do hope you got my meaning. Maybe I should have used a bloodied body undergoing major heart surgery. Not a pretty sight but the end product, if successful, is the best!

 

Any better?

Perhaps...

 

Is anything perfect and in order if you really take a good look at it?

[Ouroboros]

Do you think I can get pm privlages?

Sorry. That feature is out of my supervision.

[Grandpa Harley]

Isn't the ignore function marvellous?

 

 

Yes it is! I had to use it before for PM when one "chibby" decided to try opening preaching dialog with me in PM. I love the ignore/block function!

 

you too? I assume he's unbanned now...

[Grandpa Harley]

Do you think I can get pm privlages?

Sorry. That feature is out of my supervision.

 

Why the hell would anyone want to give a madman that function... bad enough his spouting tripe publicly...

[Grandpa Harley]

I find it hard to beleive that one of the mods here would be so over zealous that Dave had to over rule them... just another troll tactic...

 

Nah, the story is: I decided to throw his sorry ass out, because his first posts were quite trollish, but then he PM-ed Dave and asked for a second chance, and he said he made a mistake in his first posts, so Dave asked me if I would let him in again or if we would keep him out. So we mutually agreed to let him in again, but we have no problem what-so-ever to kick him out again, if so needed.

 

I question the wisdom of letting him back... since I've seen nothing much to disabuse me that he meant exactly what he said in the earlier post...

[Ouroboros]

I question the wisdom of letting him back... since I've seen nothing much to disabuse me that he meant exactly what he said in the earlier post...

Who said I was supposed to be wise?

[Deva]

Some are still afraid to come out as an atheist. I don't have that problem.

 

Michael, with all due respect, implying that those on this site who are not atheists are "afraid" is something I don't think I have heard from you before. Am I hearing you right?

 

There is one on this site, he's new and afraid to come out as ex, but with good reason and also most all here advised him not to. But I was not really refering to this *site* but atheists in general are treated like "do do" (coliseum...) by xtians.

 

Yeah Deva, I guess it reads a bit "wrong" reading over it..

 

Well, Michael, it sounded a bit strange, but now that you have explained it, you are perfectly right.

 

You know you are OK in my book.

[Grandpa Harley]

I'd have made a fine Jesuit...

[justsomeone]

I do stand corrected about the tree. But in Isaiah 45.7 it says God creates evil. Amos 3.6 and so on. Many many more. This God does not seem to shirk responsibility.

Yes, I know. My comment was in context of the Genesis story, and not what the Bible say later. I should have made it more clear. Sorry.

 

I like that knowledge part too because it says to me that evil was in existence already but the knowledge was not. In other words I think Adam and Eve were not perfect (evil) but did not know it until they ate and then the knowledge came. Practically this tells me the author of this story may be trying to say that we people are not as perfect as we may think we are and life's situations will make that abundantly clear to us at some point.

And it also tells us that philosophizing and pondering about right vs wrong etc is what makes us human. We go from the "I know it all - godlike" creature to the "I have my doubts and I have to wonder and reason" creature. It's when we realize that things aren't as black-and-white, that we leave our own Eden.

 

In the Garden, humans had the perfect "goodness", but by thinking about what is good and what is bad, they became human and had to, forever, strive to understand again. It's also the transition from childhood, and the innocent trust in authority, into adulthood and responsibility and becoming that authority. It's a hard path from our "eden" of childhood, into the rough world of work, family, taxes etc.

 

I really see your point about the building. I too love a good construction site, even the ones I make myself at home here. There is something satisfying in a job in progress. But I do hope you got my meaning. Maybe I should have used a bloodied body undergoing major heart surgery. Not a pretty sight but the end product, if successful, is the best!

 

Any better?

Perhaps...

 

Is anything perfect and in order if you really take a good look at it?

 

Han, you said "And it also tells us that philosophizing and pondering about right vs wrong etc is what makes us human. We go from the "I know it all - godlike" creature to the "I have my doubts and I have to wonder and reason" creature. It's when we realize that things aren't as black-and-white, that we leave our own Eden."

 

That's good.

 

BUT

 

I'm taking a gamble here but I do not agree with the other thing you wrote, which of course does not make it untrue but I just want your input.

 

You also said this "In the Garden, humans had the perfect "goodness", but by thinking about what is good and what is bad, they became human and had to, forever, strive to understand again."

 

When I read a book I try to interpret a book with the book itself. I think the author of this Adam and Eve garden story is saying we are made intentionally imperfect but according to the story, did not realize the imperfection until later. I think this is backed up by another author but within the same book. Jere 18 explains how the potter, referring to God I think all would agree, intentionally made a marred pot and then smashed it, killed it, and remade another perfectly. This also coincides with another story in the same book about a man called Paul teaching that it is always first the carnal or natural and then the spiritual.

 

If I am hearing you right, I think you are seeing differently than me as I do not see that humans had perfect goodness.

 

Practically speaking it works for me because I see myself as never having been in perfect goodness but I do see myself as being carnal and maybe made perfect at some point.

 

If anything I read or am told cannot be applied practically to my life right now in some way then it is of no revelance to me.

 

That's why your first words were so good to hear because you applied them to everyday life.

 

Were you some kind of prophet in another life? ha ha?

 

js

[Neon Genesis]

Man's inhumanity to man is a big stumbling block to me, God or no God. How does a Muslim explain this? How does an atheist explain this? How do you explain this, Neon?

I do not know why other people cause suffering, but this thread is not about why do people hurt other people. This thread is about why does God allow people to be hurt if he has the power to stop it. Do you even understand what this thread is about?

 

 

I see nowhere in the Bible where God tries to shun the responsibility of the evil we experience.

Have you ever actually read the bible? In particular, the Old Testament? Here's a whole page full of examples where in the bible God shuns his responsiblity or in fact advocates the evil we experience: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm Another example is in Genesis 19:30-38 where Lots' daughters rape him. While God punishes Sodom and Gamorah for their sins, when Lots' daughters rape him, he does...absolutely nothing. Not only does God not punish Lots' daughters for raping him, but in fact Lots' daughters give birth to two nations, the Moabites and the Ammonites. So, God not only does not punish Lots' daughters for raping their father, but is clearly blessing them for their evil act with nations of their own.

 

In James 4:17, it says "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." Since God knows that allowing people to suffer if you have the power to help them is a sin but he doesn't do it, then if according to this verse, God has clearly sin, how can you continue to say that God is worthy of worship when God is clearly guilty of sinning, thus making God not any more moral than humans? In fact, because we humans recongize that not helping others when you have the power to do so is immoral and punish people for doing so but God thinks he is above his own laws, then doesn't that prove that we humans are more moral than God? You also have continued to ignore the rest of my questions in my previous post. I will not respond to anything else you post until you respond to everything I posted in my previous post. Your post might seem like you're saying a lot of things on the surface, but all you're doing is a making a bunch of rambles that have no point to them and completely ignore everything I've posted, which is not only annoying, but also very rude and disrespectful of you.

[justsomeone]

Man's inhumanity to man is a big stumbling block to me, God or no God. How does a Muslim explain this? How does an atheist explain this? How do you explain this, Neon?

I do not know why other people cause suffering, but this thread is not about why do people hurt other people. This thread is about why does God allow people to be hurt if he has the power to stop it. Do you even understand what this thread is about?

 

 

I see nowhere in the Bible where God tries to shun the responsibility of the evil we experience.

Have you ever actually read the bible? In particular, the Old Testament? Here's a whole page full of examples where in the bible God shuns his responsiblity or in fact advocates the evil we experience: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm Another example is in Genesis 19:30-38 where Lots' daughters rape him. While God punishes Sodom and Gamorah for their sins, when Lots' daughters rape him, he does...absolutely nothing. Not only does God not punish Lots' daughters for raping him, but in fact Lots' daughters give birth to two nations, the Moabites and the Ammonites. So, God not only does not punish Lots' daughters for raping their father, but is clearly blessing them for their evil act with nations of their own.

 

In James 4:17, it says "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." Since God knows that allowing people to suffer if you have the power to help them is a sin but he doesn't do it, then if according to this verse, God has clearly sin, how can you continue to say that God is worthy of worship when God is clearly guilty of sinning, thus making God not any more moral than humans? In fact, because we humans recongize that not helping others when you have the power to do so is immoral and punish people for doing so but God thinks he is above his own laws, then doesn't that prove that we humans are more moral than God? You also have continued to ignore the rest of my questions in my previous post. I will not respond to anything else you post until you respond to everything I posted in my previous post. Your post might seem like you're saying a lot of things on the surface, but all you're doing is a making a bunch of rambles that have no point to them and completely ignore everything I've posted, which is not only annoying, but also very rude and disrespectful of you.

 

I'm really sorry Neon. I have been busy here and elsewhere and must have overlooked alot of your questions. It is a disrepectful and rude thing to do. I will try to do better.

 

It took me a while but I think I located your last post with the questions. Is this it.....

 

That's nice. It still doesn't explain why God not only allows evil to exist, but you freely admit creates it, nor does it explain why we should worship such a hypocritical God that commands us to not do evil acts but turns around and creates evil acts himself. Nor does it explain why if evil is needed to balance good, why the amount of evil isn't equal to the amount of good. Nor does it anwer why evil is needed to prevent life from being dull and predictable. Nor does it explain why if God needs to make our lives unpredictable, does God get enjoyment out of watching people suffer and why we should worship such a tryannical God. You also still have not answered my question. When God answers some people's prayers but doesn't answer other people's prayers, is God acting like a good Samaritan or is he acting like a Pharisee? Please stop dodging my questions. Oh, and you can't use "God's mysterious ways" as an answer, either.

 

Why does God allow evil to exist?

 

I don't claim to know the mind of God.

 

Why should we worship such a hypocritical God?

 

I'm not saying you should worship a hypocritical God and I don't think you ever should do so.

 

I think I commented on the balance of evil and good.

 

Why is evil needed to keep us from being dull and predictable?

 

I don't think evil is needed to do this. I think it does this though just by making us more in depth creatures. Evil adds anothere dimension to who we are and what we do.

 

Does God get enjoyment out of watching people suffer?

 

I think I covered that one.

 

Why should we worship a tyrannical God?

 

We should never worship a tyrannical God.

 

When God answers some people's prayers but doesn't answer other people's prayers, is God acting like a good Samaritan or is he acting like a Pharisee?

 

I don't know if I understand the question. How do you determine who's prayers are being answered?

 

Very good questions. Did I get them all? Did my comments help?

 

Maybe a few questions at a time will be better in the future but I will try not to overlook any more. Please update me on any I may have missed even now.

 

js

[justsomeone]

Hey Neon,

 

Here is from your last post...

 

Have you ever actually read the bible? In particular, the Old Testament? Here's a whole page full of examples where in the bible God shuns his responsiblity or in fact advocates the evil we experience: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm Another example is in Genesis 19:30-38 where Lots' daughters rape him. While God punishes Sodom and Gamorah for their sins, when Lots' daughters rape him, he does...absolutely nothing. Not only does God not punish Lots' daughters for raping him, but in fact Lots' daughters give birth to two nations, the Moabites and the Ammonites. So, God not only does not punish Lots' daughters for raping their father, but is clearly blessing them for their evil act with nations of their own.

 

In James 4:17, it says "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." Since God knows that allowing people to suffer if you have the power to help them is a sin but he doesn't do it, then if according to this verse, God has clearly sin, how can you continue to say that God is worthy of worship when God is clearly guilty of sinning, thus making God not any more moral than humans? In fact, because we humans recongize that not helping others when you have the power to do so is immoral and punish people for doing so but God thinks he is above his own laws, then doesn't that prove that we humans are more moral than God?

 

Have I ever read the Bible?

 

I have read most of it I suppose.

 

Since God knows that allowing people to suffer if you have the power to help them is a sin but he doesn't do it, then if according to this verse, God has clearly sin, how can you continue to say that God is worthy of worship when God is clearly guilty of sinning, thus making God not any more moral than humans?

 

That is a good point on the surface but maybe God does help them out at a different time and a different way than we know. You are probably talking about helping in an immediate way. If God helps and heals completely at some point then I suppose according to you God would be worthy of worship, correct?

 

In fact, because we humans recongize that not helping others when you have the power to do so is immoral and punish people for doing so but God thinks he is above his own laws, then doesn't that prove that we humans are more moral than God?

 

See comments above.

 

Does this help or do my comments only add fuel to the confusion or fire burning within?

 

js