Grandpa Harley Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Getting out of bed No fresh milk Bred looks a bit mouldy... OH THE HUMANITY!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 James, Let me be real with you for a moment, since you seem to want to come here and dialogue. You came in like an evangelist, just as strongly as any "orthodox" chrisitan (by orthodox I am guessing you mean all the set christian denoms that all under Catholic and Protestant). Evangelizing is very offensive to people here and you will get debate and argument and hostility. A better approach would have been for you to come in here and initially post an introduction as someone who has deconverted from traditional christianity, whatever your denomination was. Then once you got to know us, share your current non-traditional beliefs in a non-confrontational way. Unfortunately, you fall into a gray area, you aren't what we typically think of as a christian but you come on just as strong and you keep identifying yourself as one. Though, your beliefs given different terminology could be anything. The fact that you are still an identifying christian, no matter how non-traditional will probably keep you from fully fitting in here. But you could find some companionship in sharing your deconversion and struggles to leave traditional christianity. Just some advice, since I haven't been very nice to you. M I knew what to expect when I made the post - I really did. I wanted dialog, and to express myself. I wanted company, and to test my ego to see if I could resist getting offended. I was lonely, and in desperate need to fill that part of me with something more than just freindly talk. I needed, and counted on the reply's I recieved. I never felt pursecuted in the least, but for a moment, I felt offended by one particular post. [i'm not certain why, tho] The human mind is a very complex thing, as is the ego that controls it, or at least [seems] to control it. I was always honest in my speach, and I do believe the things I tried to convey. I earnestly wanted for some to [hear] me, and understand where I was coming from. I am different; my views are different, and this I realize: That my understanding of what is, is not easily understood, nor do i have the ability to convey what I view to be true. Anyway, thank you for you kind reply James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Let me be real with you for a moment, since you seem to want to come here and dialogue. You came in like an evangelist, just as strongly as any "orthodox" chrisitan (by orthodox I am guessing you mean all the set christian denoms that all under Catholic and Protestant). Evangelizing is very offensive to people here and you will get debate and argument and hostility. A better approach would have been for you to come in here and initially post an introduction as someone who has deconverted from traditional christianity, whatever your denomination was. Then once you got to know us, share your current non-traditional beliefs in a non-confrontational way... I think the fact that he didn't come in that way proves that he hasn't been lurking for over a year as he claims. I see him as nothing more than a liar. Yes that's harsh, but I'll make no apologies for it. In light of some other recent revealings I am getting a little itchy about being lied to by xtians that want to come across all harmless and touchy-feely. BTW, I bet he doesn't realize that if we really wished to push the lurking issue, the server logs could be examined... My guess? He lurked here for all of an hour before creating his account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 1United - If GOD were love (if there was a god) it would be reflected in what he created. It would show traits of the creator. Look at the world of living things.: Fire ants engulfing children, dogs, cattle and horses too sometimes Tiny spiders and frogs with enough venom to kill people 10 times over Venomous snake species in the 1000s Animals hunting and killing other animals not JUST for food but for territory or pure entertainment Look at humans: Wars upon wars as far back as history shows us. Torture rape and unspeakable horrors. If WE look at creation as some sort of indicator of the mindset of god, it makes bible god look normal, cruel hateful and full of revenge and jealousy (I am a jealous god blah blah blah). All evidence shows that if there is a bible god, it most certainly is *NOT* composed of *LOVE* at all, but more so rather like hate. God is most certainly NOT love even in the context of your religion. It is not loving to separate mankind into different religions. It would show more love and compassion to UNITE all religions. Hey, your GAWD can do this right? Why send multiple "signals" to mankind? Why *LET* other religions flourish if only one of them is right? And if they ALL are right to a certain degree, why not "say" that too in the buybull you hold dear? Love is an EMOTION, and you said nothing to prove it otherwise, not even a good theory, let alone proof. It is more like a strong feeling of empathy and compassion for someone within your life. Or if you are a broad thinker, love for humanity is a strong feeling of unity, that we all struggle and need each other. It is NOT some mystical spiritual force or power, it is not god, it is a strong emotion, nothing more, nothing less. Good and evil are also concepts. All things in reality, simply *are*. They are neither good or bad, but an end result of cause and effect. Most "evil" people can be explained. Mental illness, poor circumstances growing up (also mental) and situations and input from others leading to a meltdown (also mental). There are also many more examples of why good and evil are merely concepts. Look at nature if you don't believe me. Define "good and evil" bees, monkeys, bears, dogs, cats oh how bout trees, and grass? Are *any* of them evil? Or does the personality of a human, as well as the human's actions make them good or bad? In reality these things are real: 1. There is NO darkness, darkness is a natural state, it is the absence of light. Light is created from a power source, seeing the photons of light let us perceive that it is there. Pure darkness is natural. 2. There is no such thing as quiet. Just an absence of sound. Sound is vibrations on the ear. Quiet is the natural state of things. 3. There is no such thing as COLD. Cold is merely the absence of heat. Heat is excited molecules, absolute zero is natural temp. 4. There is no such thing as good or evil, there is only our perception of the value of activity, depending on the activity (thought, lack of, doing violence, enabling violence etc). In *infinity* where space is truly endless, there are large expanses of NOTHING. Nothing is the *normal* state of space. No light, cold, heat, time OR good or evil. So you see, god cannot be love, because love is a byproduct of interaction and is not the normal state of things, and evil, or *hate* is normally a sign of dis-repair or illness, or a mis-interpretation of events. If there is no Good or Evil, then there is no *need* for a balance of these two like you hear so much, there is not a SATAN because there is a GOD which so many people believe, it is more likely and natural that NEITHER exist. You want the truth to set you free like the title of this thread implies? Then why not start talking about "truth" instead of delusion? Well thought out post, but I never said God was Love - I said that Christ was love, and Christ is not God - only the [Holy] Spirit of God. God to me, is everything that exists - even the ugly stuff, and ugly spirits, and all the venom, too. [including your morning dump] James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Great post Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 I am on the cross only in as much as [the cross] is part of daily suffering. Daily suffering? How so? We all suffer from our actions, and from the reality that is life. That is the cross - it is a symbol of death, and suffering that all man must experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 We all suffer from our actions, and from the reality that is life. That is the cross - it is a symbol of death, and suffering that all man must experience. Well, you must have a much darker outlook on life than I do. I get shit thrown at me on a daily basis but I don't consider myself to be suffering. I consider myself fortunate. Happy to be alive, happy to be a woman. Happy and not suffering, despite my circumstances and the way some people treat me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Well thought out post, but I never said God was Love - I said that Christ was love, and Christ is not God - only the [Holy] Spirit of God. God to me, is everything that exists - even the ugly stuff, and ugly spirits, and all the venom, too. [including your morning dump] James You get "christ" hand me down. Think about it. Where did you even learn that "name"? Mom an Dad most likely, and they got it from their parents. Ultimately you got and heard of "jesus" from someone else. Even the book is hand-me-down, name me ANY evidence that ANY bible book was actually wrote by eye-witnesses? You got the concept of "christ" from people and books and that's ALL. Nothing *IS* love. Love is not a thing or a spirit, it is a state of feeling over other or (plural) others. Love can be implied to things as well, like "I love my new car", or "I love the earth". Loving people, one another, is not a magical spirit thing, it is EMOTION. And before you say "no no, christ is love" first please prove these: 1. That christ even existed 2. That love is more then emotion (prove it, not just spout philosophy) 3. That the bible has authority (it is where you got xtianity from, even if you got it from mom, and mom got it from her mom, somebody in the chain got it from the church or the bible). Let's offer up some PROOF here come on! The thread TITLE says the "truth" will set you free, lets see some FACTS so we can understand TRUTH. If you cannot offer up any proof, why not use this as a thread starter "My philosophy will set you free". That's closer in touch with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Damn, I knew there was a reason I liked you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 We all suffer from our actions, and from the reality that is life. That is the cross - it is a symbol of death, and suffering that all man must experience. Well, you must have a much darker outlook on life than I do. I get shit thrown at me on a daily basis but I don't consider myself to be suffering. I consider myself fortunate. Happy to be alive, happy to be a woman. Happy and not suffering, despite my circumstances and the way some people treat me. Suffering is a state of mind... it's wanting stuff to be different to how it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 You get "christ" hand me down. Think about it. Where did you even learn that "name"? Mom an Dad most likely, and they got it from their parents. Ultimately you got and heard of "jesus" from someone else. Even the book is hand-me-down, name me ANY evidence that ANY bible book was actually wrote by eye-witnesses? You got the concept of "christ" from people and books and that's ALL. Nothing *IS* love. Love is not a thing or a spirit, it is a state of feeling over other or (plural) others. Love can be implied to things as well, like "I love my new car", or "I love the earth". Loving people, one another, is not a magical spirit thing, it is EMOTION. And before you say "no no, christ is love" first please prove these: 1. That christ even existed 2. That love is more then emotion (prove it, not just spout philosophy) 3. That the bible has authority (it is where you got xtianity from, even if you got it from mom, and mom got it from her mom, somebody in the chain got it from the church or the bible). Let's offer up some PROOF here come on! The thread TITLE says the "truth" will set you free, lets see some FACTS so we can understand TRUTH. If you cannot offer up any proof, why not use this as a thread starter "My philosophy will set you free". That's closer in touch with reality. Love exists - the rest is up for grabs. I choose to believe that Christ is love, and He/it is more than emotion. But alas, I cannot prove it, so we will have to agree to disagree. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 Suffering is a state of mind... it's wanting stuff to be different to how it is... Very true, I dropped a hammer on my foot once - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Suffering is a state of mind... Very true. it's wanting stuff to be different to how it is... Therefore suffering is self-inflicted. I choose not to suffer. I don't look at my life as suffering, daily or otherwise. It just is what it is. If I thought to myself every morning "I suffer so in this life... I wonder what kind of pain and suffering I will have to endure today..." I'd be fucking miserable. Come to think of it, that's pretty much how I lived my life as an xtian. Damn am I ever glad I left that cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 @1United **** WARNING - not for the Squeamish **** Pain is not suffering. I have trigeminal neuralgia (it is classed as the most severe pain known to medicine... most colloquial names for it figure the word 'suicide' in some form... look it up, it's a hoot), and have both classical and hemiplagic migraines (the latter in the 'cluster' variant)... I'm in the midst of a cluster now, in fact. On to the meat: Pain is pain. It's how you deal with it defines whether you 'suffer' with it. Sitting in one's own excrement, blind and vomiting, at some unknown hour of the night, is the fact of some of my life. Suffering doesn't enter into it any more, since, for the most part, 'I' am observing what's happening, neither liking it or disliking it... it just 'is' since there is nothing I can do to change it. Reality is a harsh mistress, but suffering is how you approach her whims. Get the reason I think you're an idiot now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Love exists - the rest is up for grabs. I choose to believe that Christ is love, and He/it is more than emotion. But alas, I cannot prove it, so we will have to agree to disagree. OK don't prove it then. How about a sound logical "theory" that makes common sense? Can you cough that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 OK don't prove it then. How about a sound logical "theory" that makes common sense? Can you cough that up? Don't count on it. He's too busy suffering and planting magic beanstalks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 @1United **** WARNING - not for the Squeamish **** Pain is not suffering. I have trigeminal neuralgia (it is classed as the most severe pain known to medicine... most colloquial names for it figure the word 'suicide' in some form... look it up, it's a hoot), and have both classical and hemiplagic migraines (the latter in the 'cluster' variant)... I'm in the midst of a cluster now, in fact. On to the meat: Pain is pain. It's how you deal with it defines whether you 'suffer' with it. Sitting in one's own excrement, blind and vomiting, at some unknown hour of the night, is the fact of some of my life. Suffering doesn't enter into it any more, since, for the most part, 'I' am observing what's happening, neither liking it or disliking it... it just 'is' since there is nothing I can do to change it. Reality is a harsh mistress, but suffering is how you approach her whims. Get the reason I think you're an idiot now? It was a joke, lol. On a serious note, Harely who thinks I'm an idiot. Suffering isn't only wishing things were different than the way they are. Suffering is also anger, and bitterness, and pride, and jealousy, and envy, and greed, and insecurity, etc. Suffering comes from ego, but what causes suffering is life and how we allow ourselves to react to it. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 OK don't prove it then. How about a sound logical "theory" that makes common sense? Can you cough that up? All vice/sin/suffering stems from lack of love for either life, self, or humanity. Suffering ends when one can truly love all that exists. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 On to the meat: Pain is pain. It's how you deal with it defines whether you 'suffer' with it. And on the subject of truth and reality, PAIN is an indicator in your brain, like a "warning lamp" that something is wrong and needs addressed. If we had NO pain, then we would not stop lifting or exerting ourselves if muscles in out back started to tear. We get "pain" in order to "know" we should stop lifting for now, because our back hurts. It serves a meaningful purpose. Pain is meant as a warning signal, take a few oxcotin and go about your day to see. Stub your toe? You don't feel a thing so you do nothing. Nothing at all. Now, the next day when the drug wears off, you discover that you in fact BROKE your toe, and since there was no pain you ignored it, and guess what? It got infected because the "pain" was not there to warn you to take action. Pain is *needed* within our biological system. Pain is not evil, in fact pain can save your life in situations in the spirit of the above example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 James, I am struggling here with what to say to you. How do I kindly tell you to fuck off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 OK don't prove it then. How about a sound logical "theory" that makes common sense? Can you cough that up? All vice/sin/suffering stems from lack of love for either life, self, or humanity. Suffering ends when one can truly love all that exists. James No this is not true. vice, sin and suffering are all varing things. Vice is done due to self-indugence, and lack of self control. Sin is a perception of mis-behaviour, and suffering are by-products of pain or poor situations. The EMOTION of love can be "helpfull" granted, love the addicted person and you can help them with their vices, love the sinner and maybe they will stop doing bad things (as you precieve bad to be) and love can cause you to give medical, or psychological help to those suffering. You cannot stop suffering with love, firstly because suffering is *needed* as it tells you something is wrong and needs corrected. If injured people did not suffer, they would die untreated because they would not seek help. Period. Love is not spirit. Is plain ole reality THAT boring that you have to complicate it with strange philosphies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 I wanted company, and to test my ego to see if I could resist getting offended. I've found humility and turning the other cheek to be a kind of "pride" or ego in christian circles. Humility, submission, self sacrifice, considering others...etc., these are all accomplishments that christians work towards. In spite of your differing theology, you really are not too far away from your roots. I see you coming her to exercise your "self control", "humility" and "turning the other cheek" no different than a runner who has pride in his skill, going to the track to hone his skill further. If one is consciously working towards humility are they free from the pitfalls of their ego? Is humility really humility if it is consciously done or is one only truly humble when they do so without premeditation and forethought, when it comes naturally without the individual being conscious of it? I needed, and counted on the reply's I recieved. So you were goading us, to solve your own issue of lonliness? Doesn't humility consider others before oneself. Why upset others on a board to fill your own need to test your ability to "resist offense". Are we not people too, or just play things to help you on your spiritual quest? I already mentioned that if you wanted dialogue, then there was a different way to approach our board. But you wanted quantity of replies over "quality". Therefore you were not seeking frienship with us on the merits of our own selves, but merely using us in a way you knew would cause aggitation and outpouring of negative emotions to benefit yourself. How is that "loving"? It's not I wasn't looking to be humble, only seeking challange formy ego, and comfort for self need. I have friends I can have friendly chat with - I'm not looking for friendship, here. I am a Christian and that in and of itslef makes me an enemy. I didn't upset anyone here; everyone acted the same way you always act when [fresh meat] is on the menue. Don't try to play guilt with me, I'm not biting. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 It was a joke, lol. On a serious note, Harely who thinks I'm an idiot. Suffering isn't only wishing things were different than the way they are. Suffering is also anger, and bitterness, and pride, and jealousy, and envy, and greed, and insecurity, etc. Suffering comes from ego, but what causes suffering is life and how we allow ourselves to react to it. James Anger - its cause is wishing something to be different to how it is... there is no other cause, unless one has some form of brain injury Bitterness - Wanting the past to be different to how it was... it's a delayed form of anger Pride - conceded... based on your arrogance, I'd say you knew something about that. It must be hell being you. Jealousy - Wanting something that belongs to someone else and not you. Reality gap again Insecurity - the opinion that you're not as good as you 'should' be... thus a perceived reality gap, which you choose to see as real but not how you want it... basically you're agreeing with me, and you can't see it, thus you're an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Spirits?! Spirits?! The spirit of incredulity has control of my being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 M, Thanks for the kind words, but I wasn't after sympathy... it was to illustrate that 'suffering' is a state of mind... That's not to throw your innate kindness back in your face, you understand... x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts