Are Christians Welcome On Exc?

[SWIM]

Micheal, that is your reality - not mine.

 

Sorry, but REALITY is simply REALITY, unless you somehow magically live in a parallel universe, OUR reality, meaning EVERYONES is YOUR reality to because you simply have no choice in the matter.

 

Now, were you to say "Michael, that's how you perceive reality, I perceive reality differently" then you are being accurate.

 

Why be stupid ALL THE TIME? Give it a break, shut up and read this site instead of spewing your tired old worn out philosophy on everyone?

[Kelli]

...and help me in the end

 

...

 

[i sought to convey a message - plant seed]

 

I hate to tell you this, but magic beanstalks don't grow here.

[Legion]

I'm not trying to "convert", but to plant the seeds of Spirit.

 

You know, I normally go out of my way to establish a dialogue with the Christians that come here. But the sort of stuff we get from James here really rubs me the wrong way. I have little interest in establishing a dialogue with him. I feel like raking him over the coals.

 

I guess then that for me the degree to which I feel like welcoming a Christian depends on the individual.

 

Open Minded and Sojourner are good examples of those who are welcome. But I think the sooner James leaves the better.

[Grandpa Harley]

Micheal, that is your reality - not mine.

 

Sorry, but REALITY is simply REALITY, unless you somehow magically live in a parallel universe, OUR reality, meaning EVERYONES is YOUR reality to because you simply have no choice in the matter.

 

Now, were you to say "Michael, that's how you perceive reality, I perceive reality differently" then you are being accurate.

 

Why be stupid ALL THE TIME? Give it a break, shut up and read this site instead of spewing your tired old worn out philosophy on everyone?

 

We're entitled to our opinions, but not our own facts... he seems to be unable to see the difference between the two...

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not trying to "convert", but to plant the seeds of Spirit.

 

You know, I normally go out of my way to establish a dialogue with the Christians that come here. But the sort of stuff we get from James here really rubs me the wrong way. I have little interest in establishing a dialogue with him. I feel like raking him over the coals.

 

I guess then that for me the degree to which I feel like welcoming a Christian depends on the individual.

 

Open Minded and Sojourner are good examples of those who are welcome. But I think the sooner James leaves the better.

 

 

 

 

We can always ignore him. Some think if we ignore Christians we are implicitly agreeing with them. I don't think so. If a Christian posts his/her dogma under the banner exChristian and gets zero response, the explicit message is: total indifference to the gospel message.

 

If we get "all het up about it" the preacher thinks "Wow! these people are feeling really guilty. The Spirit is really working. The field is truly ripe for harvest. Let's get the workers out and get some heavy-duty evangelizing done before it rains."

 

That's how some brands of Christians would see it.

[sojourner]

I havent read all the posts yet so this is only in answer to the first responses after my post. I will get to the others.

 

My comment wasnt to do with me perse but in general. It seems that many folks really dont want christians here at all but just tolerate them so I just wondered if you all would be happier if this spot wasnt here.

 

I personally have been treated with the same respect Ive given by the majority of the folks here.

 

now I will get to the other posts.

 

sojourner

[Kuroikaze]

I don't want you to believe in my beliefs, only want you to love unconditional.

 

I don't necessarily see a difference. See I don't necessarily think it is a good idea to love all people unconditionally, I kinda agree with Confucius, who thought that pretending to love all people equally would be an insult to those you actually know and really care about.

 

The first problem is that you commit a logical fallacy by trying to redefine love is some odd spiritual way, but you can't really give us a definition of what it is you are talking about, and when pressed for evidence, or even a concise theory you just say "I don't have any"

 

What does it mean to "love unconditional," how does one behave? does one have to be nice to all people all the time? it seems as if you are saying so, since you interpret our lack of niceness towards you as an indication of our lack of "love"

I'm not interested in being nice to everyone, some people don't deserve it.

 

As far as I'm concerned this makes your ideas about as believable as the tooth faerie or alien abductions, you have the weird new age believe system that seems like a mix of certain parts of Christianity as well as a poor parody of Buddhism (all your talk about ego),

Do you believe in the power of crystals too?

 

See I know people like you, there are quite a few new agers out here in Arizona, your belief may be a bit less annoying than that of fundy christians, but is not any more believable or rational.

[sojourner]

Ok,

 

No Im not married to Kratos. I do know him from a universalist forum. We are very different in personality and views. We are not in some kind of cahoots and I am not secretly evangelizing in some way. I do not see myself as a martyr for Christ. However, I do see that you all being able to vent on Christians can be good in the healing process.

 

As far as the label change goes, I told Ruby a while back that it doesnt bother me to be labeled however the powers here see fit as that bothered her at the time that I had an exc label although I have no idea how I even got it. Whatever seems to fit me best to you all is fine with me.

 

I have really learned a lot here, have made friends and just have to hope you all take me for me and let my own words speak for me.

 

Sojourner

[Legion]

We can always ignore him. Some think if we ignore Christians we are implicitly agreeing with them. I don't think so. If a Christian posts his/her dogma under the banner exChristian and gets zero response, the explicit message is: total indifference to the gospel message.

 

If we get "all het up about it" the preacher thinks "Wow! these people are feeling really guilty. The Spirit is really working. The field is truly ripe for harvest. Let's get the workers out and get some heavy-duty evangelizing done before it rains."

 

That's how some brands of Christians would see it.

I think one of the great things about ex-C is the diversity of people we have here Ruby. I have not detected an over-arching theme behind our responses to the Christians who come here. Sure there are the "heated responses", but there are also those who honestly try to engage them. And some of these kinder members are among our most valued: Alice, Antlerman, and now Hans just to name a few.

[Antlerman]

I am opposed to attacking any person because they have a label. I consider it no different that the ultra-fundamentalist who makes fun of every religion that isn't there's.

 

I try to render to each what there actions, not their labels dictate. If a Christian comes in here and speaks with respect, they get respect. If a Christian comes in here and will not listen after multiple attempts from others to communicate with them, put instead judge and preach self-righteously, then go ahead and "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!'.

 

But one point I want to really drive home is that there are many people who are Christian who come here and defend their faith, but the reality of it is they are doing so to test what has been failing for them. What you should do Ruby is this: start a poll asking how many people came here still considering themselves Christian, and found that through civilized discussion, they were able to sort things out and either left their beliefs behind, or at the least became better people for their exposure to open dialog? I know for a fact quite a few that I put out a hand to when they were being driven off, subsequently did just those things.

 

At the very least, if someone wants to beat the Christian with a board because they are symbolic of something they hate in their past, then the least we can do is follow our own stated rules of the Colleseum and stop with the slashing in there. I admit there's times when a self-righteous fundi spews his garbage that I'll take shots at them for sport myself, but it's not my first impulse and I hope it never will be. If that sort of thing happens from a Christian in the Colleseum, then it should be moved out of there into the Lion's Den, but I don't think we should ever violate our own rules.

 

I hope this gets taken to heart. I've seen too many people driven off simply because of their label, while their actions were showing themselves respectful humans. Rising above that behavior is the best defeat of them we could hope for. Attacking someone for their label Christian is just as offense as a Christian attacking someone for calling themselves and atheist. Here’s what I said to a Christian that did that with me:

 

Atheists love twisting arguments. You obviously cannot prove God does not exist; we all understand this.

"Atheists love twisting arguments".

Isn't that like saying Blacks like to steal? Or Jews like to... (fill in typical negative stereotype here). Prejudice and stereotypes, the gleaming pinnacle of a moron's reasoning ability.

 

I’m not going to do this to someone else becasue they choose to call themselves Christian. I've chosen a better ideal to live by.

[Legion]

Well said Antlerman.

[xandermac]

All this talk about planting seeds and such. Most of us EXC's have blasphemed against the holy spook.

 

Mark 3:28-30, "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

 

So according to your book I can't get forgiveness. What would be the point of planting a seed?

[crazy-tiger]

My comment wasnt to do with me perse but in general. It seems that many folks really dont want christians here at all but just tolerate them so I just wondered if you all would be happier if this spot wasnt here.

Frankly, this is a website/forum with the express purpose of providing help and support for those who have left the Christian faith, no matter what it's flavour. As such, as a general rule, Christians are really not very welcome.

 

Now, that general rule has exceptions... such as those who are here to learn about the myriad people here, the many different views and beliefs of those here. Then there's the ones who who are trying to learn more about Christianity and what makes people leave. (Doing it in a respectful manner is vital for that one...)

Those kinds of Christians are welcome, in a way of speaking... hell, some of us really like having them here.

 

Unfortunately, most Christians we get here are of the "I HAVE THE TRUTH AND YOU WILL FOLLOW WHAT I SAY OR BURN" type, or the "I CAN PROVE JESUS IS REAL/EVOLUTION IS FALSE" ones... and those are the ones who are just barely tolerated and not really wanted by most. (good for sharpening claws, so they have some use)

 

 

The problem is, when you use a single label to describe a very wide-ranging group of people, then ask if the label/group is welcome, you end up asking if they are welcome in general... which misses the whole point.

 

 

 

In short, if you bring something positive to the community as a Christian, then you're welcome... too varying degrees depending on what various members have experienced. And since we've had some real nasty Christians over the years, there's not much welcome left for the nice ones. (blame the people like Goldie/Troy/any of the dozens of arseholes who've been here before you for that)

[crazy-tiger]

All this talk about planting seeds and such. Most of us EXC's have blasphemed against the holy spook.

 

Mark 3:28-30, "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

 

So according to your book I can't get forgiveness. What would be the point of planting a seed?

Hang on... I thought being Gay was the only unforgivable sin? Or was leaving the faith in the first place the only unforgivable sin..?

 

 

Whatever... they're all the only unforgivable sin so if you've done any of them, no seeds for you. (2 out of 3 here, so I'm not gonna be getting impregnated by any seeds any time soon...)

[Grandpa Harley]

Ant... I'll consider my stance...

[Antlerman]

Ant... I'll consider my stance...

Thank you Grandpa. You have an enjoyable wit to be certain, but it's only cutting when the recepient deserves it through their words they express, not by a yellow star stuck on them. Otherwise, it actually hurts me. Sojourner is my friend, and deserves respect because she shows it. In no way is she deserving of scorn.

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm not sure I agree that respect is due if one is not certain that one can trust them.

[upstarter]

I don't usually read posts in the Lion's Den (more on that in a moment) but I thought this survey was important so I did it and read the comments.

 

Since I have been on this site I have steered clear of the Lion's Den, mostly because I have no interest in talking to xtians. I certainly have no interest in debating with xtians.

 

What I'm not clear on is if people don't want to talk to xtians on this site, why do you read the forums where they are invited to post. Just stay away from those and you will have no dealings with xtians here.

 

I've said this to a few people and the response is usually that they enjoy "playing with", "tormenting", "beating up on" the xtians. So if that's the case what's the problem?

 

Why would we consider banning xtians? The people who enjoy the game, play on. Those who are offended or hurt by the comments of xtians, stay away from the forums where they are.

 

My $0.02

 

Heather

[R. S. Martin]

I am opposed to attacking any person because they have a label. I consider it no different that the ultra-fundamentalist who makes fun of every religion that isn't there's.

 

I try to render to each what there actions, not their labels dictate. If a Christian comes in here and speaks with respect, they get respect. If a Christian comes in here and will not listen after multiple attempts from others to communicate with them, put instead judge and preach self-righteously, then go ahead and "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!'.

 

I agree. Perhaps you have not yet had opportunity to read the history of what prompted this poll, and its twin by crazy tiger. Both came out of Kratos's thread about the purpose of the Lion's Den.

[SWIM]

I try not to be openly harsh on anyone really, unless they make it clear right from the start that their "mission" is to re-convert. Then, in the spirit of the den I let em have it sometimes, not all the time. I think for the most part I am not all that hostile a person, but evangelists really bug the crap out of me, and people claiming "great knowledge" or proclaiming the "good news" on a site like this, is basically just asking for it, especially in the den if they had read many of the other threads here.

 

I have been guilty of seeing the yellow ribbion and immediately assuming "asshat" before though... lol not a hard leap to make...

 

What bothers me is the VAST circles they talk in. This is so cause of this, no because of this, back to what I first said... etc etc over and over like a dog trying to catch his tail while on speed... Sometimes being *nice* speeds em up, gets em revved, and before you know it, we are all still at square one in the conversation.

 

I am not saying ALL xtians are like this, they are not of course. But we have been attracting some real loons lately...

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not sure I agree that respect is due if one is not certain that one can trust them.

 

I think there are very many levels of trust. I know a lot of people with whom I would trust my life and my bank account but not my heart. However, most of my life is compartmentalized. I trust people here with certain stuff that I trust no one in real life. I trust my doctor with stuff I trust no one else. Etc.

 

I am friends with individuals no one else likes. Others are friends with individuals I don't like. Friends is very personal. Who we like and who we respect is very personal. These forums are set up so we can participate in a safe place even if there are people we don't like or feel comfortable with. The group is large enough for us to avoid and ignore the people we don't like.

 

For the record, Sojourner, I noticed that your label is changed but I had nothing to do with it. I don't remember the conversation you mention but I trust your memory.

[Alice]

I am opposed to attacking any person because they have a label. I consider it no different that the ultra-fundamentalist who makes fun of every religion that isn't there's.

 

I try to render to each what there actions, not their labels dictate. If a Christian comes in here and speaks with respect, they get respect. If a Christian comes in here and will not listen after multiple attempts from others to communicate with them, put instead judge and preach self-righteously, then go ahead and "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!'.

 

But one point I want to really drive home is that there are many people who are Christian who come here and defend their faith, but the reality of it is they are doing so to test what has been failing for them. What you should do Ruby is this: start a poll asking how many people came here still considering themselves Christian, and found that through civilized discussion, they were able to sort things out and either left their beliefs behind, or at the least became better people for their exposure to open dialog? I know for a fact quite a few that I put out a hand to when they were being driven off, subsequently did just those things.

 

At the very least, if someone wants to beat the Christian with a board because they are symbolic of something they hate in their past, then the least we can do is follow our own stated rules of the Colleseum and stop with the slashing in there. I admit there's times when a self-righteous fundi spews his garbage that I'll take shots at them for sport myself, but it's not my first impulse and I hope it never will be. If that sort of thing happens from a Christian in the Colleseum, then it should be moved out of there into the Lion's Den, but I don't think we should ever violate our own rules.

 

I hope this gets taken to heart. I've seen too many people driven off simply because of their label, while their actions were showing themselves respectful humans. Rising above that behavior is the best defeat of them we could hope for. Attacking someone for their label Christian is just as offense as a Christian attacking someone for calling themselves and atheist. Here’s what I said to a Christian that did that with me:

 

Atheists love twisting arguments. You obviously cannot prove God does not exist; we all understand this.

"Atheists love twisting arguments".

Isn't that like saying Blacks like to steal? Or Jews like to... (fill in typical negative stereotype here). Prejudice and stereotypes, the gleaming pinnacle of a moron's reasoning ability.

 

I’m not going to do this to someone else becasue they choose to call themselves Christian. I've chosen a better ideal to live by.

 

Amen

 

 

I'm not sure I agree that respect is due if one is not certain that one can trust them.

 

A couple of questions Gramps - If one respects someone and later finds it was undeserved ... what has been 'lost'? If one does not show someone respect and later finds out this was not deserved ... what has been lost?

 

Why do you need to 'trust' someone with your respect - if they do not honour the respect you show them - who has lost out and what have they lost?

[R. S. Martin]

I don't usually read posts in the Lion's Den (more on that in a moment) but I thought this survey was important so I did it and read the comments.

 

Since I have been on this site I have steered clear of the Lion's Den, mostly because I have no interest in talking to xtians. I certainly have no interest in debating with xtians.

 

What I'm not clear on is if people don't want to talk to xtians on this site, why do you read the forums where they are invited to post. Just stay away from those and you will have no dealings with xtians here.

 

I've said this to a few people and the response is usually that they enjoy "playing with", "tormenting", "beating up on" the xtians. So if that's the case what's the problem?

 

Why would we consider banning xtians? The people who enjoy the game, play on. Those who are offended or hurt by the comments of xtians, stay away from the forums where they are.

 

My $0.02

 

Heather

 

Heather, possibly you've seen my post to Antlerman by now. I'll summarize the history. It grew out of a pm with Kratos that is posted here regarding the purpose of the Lion's Den. He believed (so I understand) that the Lion's Den is "specifically set aside for Christians to post." I informed him otherwise as you can see if you read it. Two polls grew out of that thread--this one and crazy tiger's. According to the polls, the majority of voters welcome Christians mainly for the entertainment they provide. However, there is a significant minority that chooses other options.

 

My moods change with the weather, so to speak, and so do the Christians we see on here. Some I engage and some I don't. I think most of the time I skirt around the edges of the major threads that go nowhere because I don't see the point of pointless debates. I don't think anyone is asking to have the christians banned. That would defeat the purpose of those who want to "play" with them.

 

Does that answer your questions?

[crazy-tiger]

A couple of questions Gramps - If one respects someone and later finds it was undeserved ... what has been 'lost'? If one does not show someone respect and later finds out this was not deserved ... what has been lost?

 

Why do you need to 'trust' someone with your respect - if they do not honour the respect you show them - who has lost out and what have they lost?

I may not be Gramps, (which could be a good thing... imagine two Gramps posting here ) but I think I can answer it... sort of anyway.

 

It's kinda complicated, depends on the person... For me, if I give respect to someone, over and above the standard respect simply because they're a Human being, then I'm allowing them to have more "influence" than they would normally have. If they do/say something that "abuses" that influence, then I've lost some measure of confidence in my judgement.

On the other hand, if I've withheld that respect from someone who has done nothing to justify me doing so... more, if they've done/said things that would normally garner my respect, then I feel like I've managed to disrespect them... making them, in my mind, less of a person than they really are.

 

If I "trust" someone with my respect, and people know I've trusted them in that way, and then they fail to honour it or portray themselves in such away that is against what I am/stand for, then my image is "tarnished" and some respect others have for me is also lost.

 

If you've had a number of people "earning" your respect, then turning around and doing something that is pretty much disrespectful, then you have had your bad judgement shown to the world... and bad judgement is one thing that does lose you respect and is hard to overcome.

 

 

 

Damn... I feel I've not managed to get across what I mean at all.

[crazy-tiger]

Almost forgot... how can you respect someone you don't trust?