Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 We can't answer the question "Why are humans like humans" until we have figured out why 1 is a 1, and not 2, and why 100 1's are the same as 100! It's a pure mystery. Even more strange is that the letter "a" is the first letter in the alphabet! It must mean something. There must be a why "a" is so more important and more advanced letter than all the other letters, because only the first letter can be the best letter and most intelligently formed and contain most comprehensive symbolics for universal understanding, so why is it "a"? And don't tell me that it just happened like that, or that language evolved and one letter just had to be the first letter in the alphabet, no, no, it must mean something, there must be an answer to "why is best and first"! Silly thoughts... Hans, The thing is though, we are not letters. The human anatomy from what i always understood, correct me if I'm wrong here; is the most complex species known in this world. I could see the letter thing being silly, who cares its just a letter, right? But, were talking about a living, breathing, thinking, species. i would assume that inside the deepest thought of a scientist, evolution advocate, Nasa, astrologists, and all the others participates looking for the process of the human race and how it came to be; someone would know, or have theory to 'why' the human species is so much more complex and advanced in interaction and communication than the other species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Neon Genesis, I may be 'flip flopping' to you; but that is the question I was implying. Are you saying that you think the other species are superior in their advancements than the human species?We are neither automatically "advanced" nor are we automatically "inferior." We are simply different and have different advantages in different settings. Leave a human alone with a lion in a cave without any of their technology and see how long they'll last. In that case, is the lion more "advanced" than the human or is it that the lion simply had the advantage in that setting? This happens even among humans. Put one thin human against another human with muscles and see who lasts but give the thin human a weapon and the tables are turned. In this case, is the human with the muscles superior or is it the human with the weapon, or is it merely the case of who has the most advantageous setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 The question is based on a faulty assumption in my opinion Yoyo. You asked, "Why are humans more advanced?" You also asked, "The daily living of a human, say to an elephant, is more advanced. Agree?" The first question already presupposes that we are "more advanced." It is similar in my view to ask, "Why are all cars green?" This question assumes that all cars are green. And as for the elephant, perhaps I suspect she has an inner peace quite unlike anything I have experienced. So if I value inner peace, I may say the elephant is more advanced. You showed a point to my question though Lr. Maybe I'm coming out wrong with this. But, value You stated that if you valued peace, then the elephant is more advanced. My take is that the fact that you can value something, would approve the notion that we are more advanced than that elephant. As far as I know. Can an elephant have a value on a subject, other than its controller, or infant, or niche? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 ... Apes are NOT primitive or inferior or superior, just different... why is this so hard to understand? Your kidding, right? So their just different. Well, hell Grandpa. I want my own business started and some really cheap help. How about you and I go and gather some apes up and train them to work a cash register, and keep the place running right. We can even appoint one as manager. Then you and I can go chill out and have a few drinks. ...had to add. Or maybe, you are really an ape undercover, tired of your indifferent world, and ran away from home to live a fuller life, more in the likeness of a human. So first thing you did was buy a computer, since you got a cool bagging job a the local grocery store, then you got some jam up internet, and along the way discovered the human writtings of literature, along with an old Dice Clay VHS tape. There's your personality. Just messing with you Grandpa. No hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your kidding, right? So their just different. Well, hell Grandpa. I want my own business started and some really cheap help. How about you and I go and gather some apes up and train them to work a cash register, and keep the place running right. We can even appoint one as manager. Then you and I can go chill out and have a few drinks. Actually, chimps have superior memory skills than humans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7124156.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 We can't answer the question "Why are humans like humans" until we have figured out why 1 is a 1, and not 2, and why 100 1's are the same as 100! It's a pure mystery. Even more strange is that the letter "a" is the first letter in the alphabet! It must mean something. There must be a why "a" is so more important and more advanced letter than all the other letters, because only the first letter can be the best letter and most intelligently formed and contain most comprehensive symbolics for universal understanding, so why is it "a"? And don't tell me that it just happened like that, or that language evolved and one letter just had to be the first letter in the alphabet, no, no, it must mean something, there must be an answer to "why is best and first"! Silly thoughts... Hans, The thing is though, we are not letters. The human anatomy from what i always understood, correct me if I'm wrong here; is the most complex species known in this world. I could see the letter thing being silly, who cares its just a letter, right? But, were talking about a living, breathing, thinking, species. i would assume that inside the deepest thought of a scientist, evolution advocate, Nasa, astrologists, and all the others participates looking for the process of the human race and how it came to be; someone would know, or have theory to 'why' the human species is so much more complex and advanced in interaction and communication than the other species. No, we're not letters. But it demonstrates your argument. Just by the fact that your response is "we are not letters", show that you don't understand where your argument goes wrong. Humans are humans, because humans have defined what humans are. We are what we are, because we became what we are. We didn't become what we are because there was a plan to become the things we are, but because it's just happened and now we're here to discuss our existence. You see, you consider yourself high and mighty, stronger and better, and you think humans "come first in the alphabet", as a human being compared to animals being the rest of the alphabet, and hence you think there must be something special about you and that it was a reason to why you're so special, and that it was planned as such. It's human pride. The center of the universe is always me, and I, and my-self, and there must be a reason to why I'm so glorious and cool. ... wrong. That's not the truth. The most advanced and successful species on this planet are cockroaches. If we have nuclear war or global warming or global winter or what ever, they will survive and be the last species to die. Wait, there's more, sharks haven't evolved much either the last I-don't-know-how-long number of 100,000's+++ years. They don't get cancer... Wait, didn't they get cursed by sickness when Adam fell? I guess not. So in the light of medical viewpoint, sharks are better off than we. 5,000 years from now, when humanity is gone (because we will destroy the planet and wipe out human life), lets talk then about which animal who got the best features and properties to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Kuroikaze. If a human can not speak to a bird, elephant, tiger, lion, and bears oh my! Couldn't help it. Anyway. We can not speak to them yet we can create their niche in a zoo. Correct? Wouldn't that make us more advanced since we can control the species? I don't see why you would think being this entails being more advanced. Again, we build those things a group, our advantage is our ability to work together. You are just going to have to accept that no one here buys into your premise. On another note, believing you are more advanced because you control something is poor logic, this would mean white people are better than blacks because we used to control them. Being controlling may just be a sign our species is a bunch of jerks. We wouldn't even need zoos if we weren't destroying the animals natural habitats. Kuroikaze. Bad analogy. An animal being controlled due to its natural instinct to protect itself, its young, or for food has none to do with human control in the cruel, unfashionable manner, that white people did in controlling the black community. I grew up in a diverse area, and see that as a poor analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your kidding, right? So their just different. Well, hell Grandpa. I want my own business started and some really cheap help. How about you and I go and gather some apes up and train them to work a cash register, and keep the place running right. We can even appoint one as manager. Then you and I can go chill out and have a few drinks. Actually, chimps have superior memory skills than humans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7124156.stm :lmao: :lmao: You guys are killing me. Open your mind up to suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Kuroikaze. Bad analogy. An animal being controlled due to its natural instinct to protect itself, its young, or for food has none to do with human control in the cruel, unfashionable manner, that white people did in controlling the black community. I grew up in a diverse area, and see that as a poor analogy. Apes do show forms of social bounds and regulations, even morality and standards. Animals do have classifications between each other as accepted or denied. What you call natural instinct is what you also have. You have natural instincts, but they're just more advanced. By saying that you have emotions but animals don't, and animals have instincts but you don't, you only intentionally segregate yourself from animals, so you can prove that there is a difference. You're reversing the arguments. Prove first that animal instinct is not the same as human will or emotions, then we can see where that leads, but right now, you assume there's a difference, because you think and want it to be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 We can't answer the question "Why are humans like humans" until we have figured out why 1 is a 1, and not 2, and why 100 1's are the same as 100! It's a pure mystery. Even more strange is that the letter "a" is the first letter in the alphabet! It must mean something. There must be a why "a" is so more important and more advanced letter than all the other letters, because only the first letter can be the best letter and most intelligently formed and contain most comprehensive symbolics for universal understanding, so why is it "a"? And don't tell me that it just happened like that, or that language evolved and one letter just had to be the first letter in the alphabet, no, no, it must mean something, there must be an answer to "why is best and first"! Silly thoughts... Hans, The thing is though, we are not letters. The human anatomy from what i always understood, correct me if I'm wrong here; is the most complex species known in this world. I could see the letter thing being silly, who cares its just a letter, right? But, were talking about a living, breathing, thinking, species. i would assume that inside the deepest thought of a scientist, evolution advocate, Nasa, astrologists, and all the others participates looking for the process of the human race and how it came to be; someone would know, or have theory to 'why' the human species is so much more complex and advanced in interaction and communication than the other species. The most complex anatomy inthe world? Cephalopod... from copper based blood, to very efficient eyes, to a massive brain, more muscles than any paltrey mammal to the conscious control of it's skin colour to being able to adapt to crushing depths... man is not biologically complex, in the wider scheme of things... Being aquatic does have limits since spoken language is hard underwater, and even with intelligence similar to our own stuff like 'metallurgy' simply is not possible underwater... what you're doing is setting us as a an arbitrary benchmark and, since we are the best Homo species on the planet, saying 'we're best'... Now, you can start acting your age not your shoe size or just FUCK OFF... we've answered, you don't like the answer and I personally think you're a cretin... Shouldn't you be out nailing baby Jesus to a tree so he leaves you Eggs on Sunday or some such superstitious claptrap you grinning, pus filled, hydrocephalic, loon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your kidding, right? So their just different. Well, hell Grandpa. I want my own business started and some really cheap help. How about you and I go and gather some apes up and train them to work a cash register, and keep the place running right. We can even appoint one as manager. Then you and I can go chill out and have a few drinks. Actually, chimps have superior memory skills than humans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7124156.stm :lmao: :lmao: You guys are killing me. Open your mind up to suggestions. and with that the pot called the kettle 'nigger'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Yeah Gramps. I am spent. I think Yoyo needs a complete mental and emotional overhaul. Something dramatic. But I lack the ability and willingness to make an attempt. I feel somewhat dissappointed with myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Kuroikaze. Bad analogy. An animal being controlled due to its natural instinct to protect itself, its young, or for food has none to do with human control in the cruel, unfashionable manner, that white people did in controlling the black community. I grew up in a diverse area, and see that as a poor analogy. Apes do show forms of social bounds and regulations, even morality and standards. Animals do have classifications between each other as accepted or denied. What you call natural instinct is what you also have. You have natural instincts, but they're just more advanced. By saying that you have emotions but animals don't, and animals have instincts but you don't, you only intentionally segregate yourself from animals, so you can prove that there is a difference. You're reversing the arguments. Prove first that animal instinct is not the same as human will or emotions, then we can see where that leads, but right now, you assume there's a difference, because you think and want it to be different. Hans, No proof necessary. Do you think 'human will/emotions' are distinct and advanced in human evolution than the apes advancement of animal instinct? I would say yes to that because a will to do something or emotion that enables a human to go beyong the obvious to create the unknown, advances us in technology, intelligence as a species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 The most complex anatomy inthe world? Cephalopod... from copper based blood, to very efficient eyes, to a massive brain, more muscles than any paltrey mammal to the conscious control of it's skin colour to being able to adapt to crushing depths... man is not biologically complex, in the wider scheme of things... Being aquatic does have limits since spoken language is hard underwater, and even with intelligence similar to our own stuff like 'metallurgy' simply is not possible underwater... what you're doing is setting us as a an arbitrary benchmark and, since we are the best Homo species on the planet, saying 'we're best'... This is a good example. Maybe I should better define my question as to Grandpa's entrance of this creature. In what part of evolution, did these creatures evolve to this level of advancement? Did millions die, as the evolution of this creature evolved. Did they start with one heart and evolution said, its needs two hearts? Did they try to hide, killing millions, and evolution say, it needs to the ability to change its color to hide? What part of evolution caused these individual specifications of existence, since this creature as humans, are still well and alive? If evolution is a process, as my comment earlier in regard to humans; did this just happen by chance with these creatures Grandpa pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your kidding, right? So their just different. Well, hell Grandpa. I want my own business started and some really cheap help. How about you and I go and gather some apes up and train them to work a cash register, and keep the place running right. We can even appoint one as manager. Then you and I can go chill out and have a few drinks. Actually, chimps have superior memory skills than humans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7124156.stm :lmao: :lmao: You guys are killing me. Open your mind up to suggestions. and with that the pot called the kettle 'nigger'... Yeah Gramps. I am spent. I think Yoyo needs a complete mental and emotional overhaul. Something dramatic. But I lack the ability and willingness to make an attempt. I feel somewhat dissappointed with myself. Gramps said that apes are just 'different'. In such a simplistic statement I could help myself with that response. Then Ng, in grasping straws for Gramps, pops up a link to the smarts of chimps. So. Yes, Lr. Its getting a little dramatic to assume that an ape and a human are similar in ecological-evolutional advancement, there just different. Big difference, you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Well Yoyo, I am at least pleased that you find us amusing. I just get the impression that pride is often our enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Well Yoyo, I am at least pleased that you find us amusing. I just get the impression that pride is often our enemy. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your kidding, right? So their just different. Well, hell Grandpa. I want my own business started and some really cheap help. How about you and I go and gather some apes up and train them to work a cash register, and keep the place running right. We can even appoint one as manager. Then you and I can go chill out and have a few drinks. Actually, chimps have superior memory skills than humans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7124156.stm :lmao: :lmao: You guys are killing me. Open your mind up to suggestions. and with that the pot called the kettle 'nigger'... Yeah Gramps. I am spent. I think Yoyo needs a complete mental and emotional overhaul. Something dramatic. But I lack the ability and willingness to make an attempt. I feel somewhat dissappointed with myself. Gramps said that apes are just 'different'. In such a simplistic statement I could help myself with that response. Then NG, in grasping straws for Gramps, pops up a link to the smarts of chimps. So. Yes, Lr. Its getting a little dramatic to assume that an ape and a human are similar in ecological-evolutional advancement, there just different. Big difference, you think? No, it's not... simple as that. A Chimpanzee cannot be compared to a human and vice versa such that one is said to be more 'advanced' than the other... I notice you've quietly dropped the assertion we as the most 'complex' organism on the planet, having had your apologist arse handed to you, so you're now just TROLLING to make you feel better... well troll away you stupid little man... doesn't make you right, just loud... Alice? Tell me what there is to 'respect' now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Well Yoyo, I am at least pleased that you find us amusing. I just get the impression that pride is often our enemy. I agree No you don't... you'd not see your own fucking hubris if it bit your protestant ID arse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 The human anatomy from what i always understood, correct me if I'm wrong here; is the most complex species known in this world. Incorrect. Here's a post from elsewhere by a faculty member of Neuroscience speaking of anatomy addressing the question "Are humans the most complex organism" You were confused with good reason - this is what would be called an "ill- posed question." "The most complex" doesn't really mean anything unless you focus it down quite a bit, so I will try and answer this on several levels. If you mean at a genetic level, the answer is clearly no. The genome of an organism consists of the complete DNA sequence, including coding and non-coding genes. Of the number of animals for which is there is good genome data (about 3800 so far), the smallest known genome is about 39 million base pairs (Mb) in Trichoplax adhaerens, a placozoan. Placozoans are very tiny organisms whith only about 20-30 cells. On the other hand, the largest genome is not in an elephant or a whale or a human, but rather in Protopterus aethiopicus, the marbled lungfish (about 130,340 Mb). Mice and humans come in at quite a modest 3000 Mb. A good place to look at this information can be found here: http://www.genomesize.com/summary.htm or here http://www.web-books.com/MoBio/Free/Ch3H.htm If the question meant complexity in terms of physiology, the answer is definitely no. Humans are bipedal primates, adapted for complex manual manipulation and flexible mental and time-binding capacities in a terrestrial environment. While we adapt well to most environments on earth, this is largely because of our cognitive and manipulative abilities, not physiological complexities. You could easily argue that newts, who can adapt their basic physiology to living underwater as well as on land, or cichlid fish that can change their sex when gender differentials become a problem, are more complex. We share most of our basic biological systems with just about every other vertebrate on the planet - each species "tweaks their setup" to be only as complex as they need to be to cope with and take advantage of environmental niches. The only manner in which humans might be considered to be the most "complex" organisms on the planet is in mental cognition and neocortical complexity, and even here it's contentious. Humans do not have the biggest brains on the planet - our brains are about 1.4 kg (3.08 pounds). That honor goes to the Sperm Whale (physter catadon) at 7.8 kg (17 lbs 3 oz). However, whale brains have less neocortex and seem to be laid out on a simpler, less densely interconnected plan. So it's not just size, it's also brain/body ratios, number of layers of cells, number of interneuronal synapses, organization, and a very large host of other factors. Humans do not always come out on top with these types of comparisons (in several elephants and orcas come out way ahead). A good basic web site on this is here: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Home1.html An excellent site comparing mammalian brain neuroanatomy can be found here: http://brainmuseum.org/ Humans also are not the only (or sometimes even the best) problem solvers. Chimps and dolphins use tools, dogs and primates have been shown to be able to lie (a very cognitively complex function, meaning they understand truth and how to manipulate it to get what they want) and african gray parrots show a remarkable ability at language use. All in all, to answer this question you are going to have to reask it in different ways (which is always a valid method of response). Just point out that complexity is a relative and often meaningless term if you don't also ask "complexity of what?" Hope this helps. i would assume that inside the deepest thought of a scientist, evolution advocate, Nasa, astrologists, and all the others participates looking for the process of the human race and how it came to be; someone would know, or have theory to 'why' the human species is so much more complex and advanced in interaction and communication than the other species. Incorrect. See above. So how exactly are humans "more complex"? BTW, they are actually far less well equipped for survival on the planet than other species. Other species are far more well adapted to survive in far wider ranges of environments. The only thing we've really go going for us is our brains and creativity, but that is also our greatest weakness. We destroy our own environments. We're hardly "God's" special jewel. The Holy Dragonfly is far superior to us naked apes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Hans, No proof necessary. Do you think 'human will/emotions' are distinct and advanced in human evolution than the apes advancement of animal instinct? I would say yes to that because a will to do something or emotion that enables a human to go beyong the obvious to create the unknown, advances us in technology, intelligence as a species. Humans are clearly more advanced that Chimps (in the sense of language and inventiveness and some other faculties), but there are strong evidence that Chimps got emotions, a free will, to a certain level even an ability to reason and do rational decisions, and they have social bonds and structures in their groups, and I think I read somewhere they have a level of identity or consciousness too because they know they are "individuals". There are apes that have learned to communicate with sign language and can express love, hate, despise and other emotions and even argue to why they feel that way. Now, do you consider them purely robots or a low level of sentient beings? Again, asking "why?" is asking the "question without answer", or like asking "what is zero divided by zero?", and the answer is that you don't have an answer for it. Even if the answer was "God wanted it", the question is "why did God want it?", and no one can claim to know what this supposed God really wants, and the argument will have to go to emotional opinions. So again, "why are humans humans" is an unanswered question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 If Chimps had needed language, they'd have evolved it... they have a capacity of abstract thought. TBH, the descended larynx seems to be an adaptation for diving, not for speech... Chimps don't swim unless they fall in the water, thus they never needed to develop a descended larynx... and thus don't have the ability to make finely modulated sounds... And as to the complexity of speech, the song of whales seems to contain more information per minute than a single volume of Britannica... and a whales song can last for several days... we don't know what they're saying, but they appear to be communicating *something*... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 So very true. Dolphins have names. Even rats can think using causal reasoning (some recent study showed that rats have a rudimentary logical ability.) I still want to know the answer to what zero divided by zero is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Antlerman, they forgot otters. Otters are tool users too. Not only do they pick up rocks to use as belly supported anvils to crack open shells, they also deliberately wrap themselves in seaweed to keep from floating off when they sleep. "I shall eat your entrails on my belly!" - South Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 YoYo, this is the kind of superiority that you are talking about. To you this idea proves human exceptionalism. Then somehow human exceptionalism proves God directed evolution. God has not been preparing the English speaking and Teutonic peoples for a thousand years for nothing... He has given us the spirit of progress to overwhelm the to forces of reaction throughout the earth. He has made us adept in government that we may administer government among savage and senile peoples... and of all our race He has marked the American People as His chosen nation to finally lead in the redemption of the world. Senator Albert J. Beveridge This is what folks have been trying to tell you. "Life is not a tale of progress. It is, rather, a story of intricate branching and wandering, with momentary survivors adapting to changing local environments, not approaching cosmic or engineering perfection." Stephen Jay Gould. Evolutionarily speaking we are a bud on a twig somewhere in the bush of life. There is nothing special about us except in our own minds. It still remains to be seen if our conquering behavior which is only about 10,000 years old is a good evolutionary idea or not. There is a good bit of evidence that it may not be. This computer may represent an evolutionary direction of survival or it may represent the death throes of an evolutionary oops. You are right right now that we can destroy anything including ourselves. If you want to call that superior then so be it. If this does show that evolution is directed you still have a long way to go to arrive at BibleGod as the director. One thread of theology that evolution directed or not makes ridiculous in the extreme is salvation and a savior, which pretty much leaves out the Christian bit of BibleGod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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