Did God Create hell?

[Ouroboros]

I have never studied or ever even read the Kabbalah.  My unofficial understanding from OT or book of law only Jews is that it is gnostic and mystical, much like Christianity.  To be fair though, my opinion about the Kabbalah is not first hand knowledge.  It would be interesting to look into it though.

The reason why I bring this up is that in the thread about the Pagan roots to Christianity, it struck me that the Kabbalah (I think) is more "Pagan" in a sense, than Judaism, and if the first Gnostics were affected by it, then there might be the link Guacamole want us to provide... Just a thought...

[NotBlinded]

Even if God/Jesus don't exist would following his teachings improve the quality of the human condition?

 

Those teachings aren't unique to Jesus. They are unique to humanity.

[NotBlinded]

Ip's okei. I duh it two!

 

It was just funny seing the word that way... sorry guys... usually I don't crack down on spelling, because of my own bad grammar, but it just didn't see fit in that context.

 

Did you only look at the word with one eye or something? (I'm just kidding!) hehe

[Kryten]

Excellent question. That one bothered me at one time. There are teachings that say that even thinking about sinning is the same as doing the sin. It is my hope that the process of considering a sin -- the temptation process -- is not counted as a sin until it has been committed. I do a lot of sinning in my mind during the day. I have the faith that God understands the human condition and he slaps on a lot of grace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try to see the BIG PICTURE here...

According to Christian dogma, we are born guilty (& destined for hell) because of the sin of Adam, and can gain heaven (& avoid hell) by believing that Jesus rose from the dead. Those are the two most important doctrines, so let's examine them...

We are all going to hell based on the fact that Eve gave Adam some fruit and he-- not knowing the difference between good and evil, wanted to learn more and be like his father, and so ate it. Afterwards he realized he did something wrong, but not before. So we are all going to hell based on the action of one innocent man!

This is despite the promise God made that (Ez 18:20) "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." Also (Dt 24:16) "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin" and (2Kings 14:6) "Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: 'Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins.'" Same thing repeated in 2Chron 25:4.

 

Do you see the problem here? Then in order to be saved from that mess, we are expected to BELIEVE one or all of the ressurection accounts, even though they are all different and contradict each other-- AND there is no physical or historical evidence that it ever happened. (Nobody who was there at the time ever wrote anything about it. No writers, no historians, no Jews, not Jesus, no Romans, nobody. Maybe the 500 undead roaming Jerusalem must have eaten all the writing paper...) But despite that, we must buy into it or burn forever.

 

Now THAT'S greater love!

[Checkmate]

I think the question really is..."Why are Christians so bloody disturbed that we can follow our own conscience without need for a holy book, religion, or preacher, higher power etc. to guide us(?)"

 

 

THERE! Right THERE! THAT'S The question that needs to be answered!

 

Why the FUCK don't Xians believe that humans can be good WITHOUT "god"?

 

Why do they HATE the very notion that we as a race can decide to be good, or do good?

 

Why MUST "god" be given credit for all the good in the world, while we humans get blamed for all evil?

 

Why? WHY? Oh fucking WHY?!?!?!?

[simonpeter]

Those teachings aren't unique to Jesus.  They are unique to humanity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really! I can't think of one major or minor religion that even comes close to similar teachings. However, let's assume you're right that these teachings are not unique to Jesus and he copied them. Once again, why are exchristians so vehemently against these teachings? Would we have people strapping bombs on themselves if they were followed. Would used car dealers be more honest? Would I quit judging people? Good grief. The list is endless.

[white_raven23]

You are a product of your mother and father. If you are caught robbing a bank are your parents responsible?

 

Wow. No one else tackled this one yet.....

 

*cracks knuckles in anticipation*

 

My parents are human. I'm human.

 

Humans are flawed. Our system of justice is sensitive to this. Be thankful.

 

God is not human. God does not have human flaws. God is a supreme being. Thus the being holds the ultimate level of accountability and responsibility for all actions.

 

Comparing parents to a god is belittling to the god in question. But then, christians minimize god all the time. So no surprise there.....after all, you guys think god needs a nappy-poo after six days of work.

God created his angels with free will just as he did humans. In otherwords, His angels can choose to follow Him or they may leave.

 

They may leave, huh? Leave.

 

What a kind way of saying, cast out of heaven into hell.

 

Lucifer, His most trusted angel, rebelled and took one-third of God's angels with him.

 

More god minimizing again. How do you rebel from a supreme being? Just what is going to take him by surprise? A supreme being would know of Lucifer's betrayal the mere moment the supreme being decided to create Lucifer to begin with.

[NotBlinded]

Really! I can't think of one major or minor religion that even comes close to similar teachings. However, let's assume you're right that these teachings are not unique to Jesus and he copied them. Once again, why are exchristians so vehemently against these teachings? Would we have people strapping bombs on themselves if they were followed. Would used car dealers be more honest? Would I quit judging people? Good grief. The list is endless.

I don't think that exchristians are against his teachings. After all, the golden rule is a perfect example of an ethical teaching. What we (I) are against is christians that give credit to Jesus for this teaching when it is humanity that forged it. I personally don't like it, along with others, when anything ethical is internalized, the credit goes to a god and not to the people that feel that way. Put credit where credit is due.

 

What needs to be addressed is the reasons why some people tend to act morally and some don't. That is pretty much relative to the individual and their life experiences.

 

There must be a reason that we (not even christians) can follow these teachings. Maybe it has something to do with self-preservation and the preservation of one's family?

[simonpeter]

In answer to the title of this thread.  No, god didn't create hell, that is only a NT concept.  The Old Testament has no such teaching as a place of eternal torture.  You just simply died and were burried.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Close, but not quite accurate. This is the believe of the Sadduccess of the day. However, the vast number of Jews and the Pharisees believed in the realm of Hades, also known as a river of fire. It was more of a pergatory where you could earn points or credits and escape this realm. It was important to offer sacrifices for your dead relatives to assist them in their efforts to leave this domain. Peter referred to this ancient belief in one of his letters, saying that Jesus decended into Hades and preached, bringing back many who believed.

[Ouroboros]

Did you only look at the word with one eye or something? (I'm just kidding!)  hehe

[simonpeter]

Wow. No one else tackled this one yet.....

 

*cracks knuckles in anticipation*

 

My parents are human. I'm human.

 

Humans are flawed. Our system of justice is sensitive to this. Be thankful.

 

God is not human. God does not have human flaws. God is a supreme being. Thus the being holds the ultimate level of accountability and responsibility for all actions.

 

Comparing parents to a god is belittling to the god in question. But then, christians minimize god all the time. So no surprise there.....after all, you guys think god needs a nappy-poo after six days of work.

They may leave, huh? Leave.

 

What a kind way of saying, cast out of heaven into hell.

More god minimizing again. How do you rebel from a supreme being? Just what is going to take him by surprise? A supreme being would know of Lucifer's

betrayal the mere moment the supreme being decided to create Lucifer to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow. Great responses. One at a time. Jesus used the illustration of the Father on several occasions. In the story of the woman losing a coin, he depicted His Father as a woman. In the story of the lost sheep, God is a Shepherd. In the story of the Prodical Son, God is depicted as a loving father. No, I don't think we have the ability to reduce God.

 

Cast out of heaven -- that was not going to be the place of battle. The warfare is taking place here on earth.

 

Lucifer taking God by surprise. Unlikely. However, God will not interfere with the choices his "beings" make, whether in heaven or on earth. And, he waits patiently for the lost -- perhaps his most beloved and once trusted fallen angel -- to return to Him.

[LloydDobler]

Really! I can't think of one major or minor religion that even comes close to similar teachings.

You need to think harder.

why are exchristians so vehemently against these teachings?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're not. That's a straw man. Nobody here said we're opposed to the good teachings of christ. We're just emphasizing that their origins are secular though. I firmly believe in the golden rule and being merciful and graceful to my fellow man.

[simonpeter]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know, Han. I was typing sooooooooooo fast I didn't even catch it. I'm am absolutely delighted to brighten up your day.

[Ouroboros]

Really! I can't think of one major or minor religion that even comes close to similar teachings. However, let's assume you're right that these teachings are not unique to Jesus and he copied them. Once again, why are exchristians so vehemently against these teachings? Would we have people strapping bombs on themselves if they were followed. Would used car dealers be more honest? Would I quit judging people? Good grief. The list is endless.

Oh no! Now the real battle starts.

 

The teachings are not wrong. The monopoly attitude Christianity has to universal teachings are devastating to progress and adjustments to modern life. It was very popular the first hundreds of years in the Catholic Church to study Greek philosophy, and it was mixed in into the liturgy and dogma. So philosophy was borrowed.

 

About the thought about Christian terrorists, yes Christians would strap bombs to themselves too. IRA is a perfect example of Christian terrorists. How many innocent people were killed in London when they were most active?

 

The teachings of Christianity don’t make people better, its people making themselves better, with or without the teachings from the Bible. The Bible can be used in a diversified teaching including other religious and secular philosophy books. There’s nothing against the Bible per se, but against the Bible Only Theology.

 

There are scriptures from older religions with similar or same teachings. Maybe not one single one, where everything has been compiled, but what does that prove? Nothing! Since I could take all good teachings in this world right now and make one huge compendium of them all. Would it make my newly founded religion the only true one? No, not at all!

 

The Greek philosophy had a lot of moral codes and ethics figured out before Jesus, and most of it is forgotten in the mist of the past, and Christianity has been able to flourish and hijack the ideology of moral and ethics, so today people can’t see past the religious wall to understand that these concepts can be argued and defined on humanistic terms and not necessarily religious.

 

The Golden Rule is documented - with different wordings, but same intention - by older sources, and we have a different topic somewhere on this site (Khan you probably would know) where these are listed.

 

Let’s just start with one example of rules and laws before Jesus:

 

The laws of Hammurabi predate the Torah. Moses and Exodus are considered to happen in the 13th century BC, Hammurabi lived 400 years earlier.

http://www.blackmask.com/acrobook/hammurabi.pdf

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/ED/TRC/MESO/law.html

 

I’ll complement with more later on.

[Ouroboros]

You know, Han. I was typing sooooooooooo fast I didn't even catch it. I'm am absolutely delighted to brighten up your day. 

I know, sometimes the mind goes in 120 mph, and the fingers just taps away on the kybard and th kebord cant kep up!

[simonpeter]

Oh no! Now the real battle starts.

 

The teachings are not wrong. The monopoly attitude Christianity has to universal teachings are devastating to progress and adjustments to modern life. It was very popular the first hundreds of years in the Catholic Church to study Greek philosophy, and it was mixed in into the liturgy and dogma. So philosophy was borrowed.

 

About the thought about Christian terrorists, yes Christians would strap bombs to themselves too. IRA is a perfect example of Christian terrorists. How many innocent people were killed in London when they were most active?

 

The teachings of Christianity don’t make people better, its people making themselves better, with or without the teachings from the Bible. The Bible can be used in a diversified teaching including other religious and secular philosophy books. There’s nothing against the Bible per se, but against the Bible Only Theology.

 

There are scriptures from older religions with similar or same teachings. Maybe not one single one, where everything has been compiled, but what does that prove? Nothing! Since I could take all good teachings in this world right now and make one huge compendium of them all. Would it make my newly founded religion the only true one? No, not at all!

 

The Greek philosophy had a lot of moral codes and ethics figured out before Jesus, and most of it is forgotten in the mist of the past, and Christianity has been able to flourish and hijack the ideology of moral and ethics, so today people can’t see past the religious wall to understand that these concepts can be argued and defined on humanistic terms and not necessarily religious.

 

The Golden Rule is documented - with different wordings, but same intention - by older sources, and we have a different topic somewhere on this site (Khan you probably would know) where these are listed.

 

Let’s just start with one example of rules and laws before Jesus:

 

The laws of Hammurabi predate the Torah. Moses and Exodus are considered to happen in the 13th century BC, Hammurabi lived 400 years earlier.

http://www.blackmask.com/acrobook/hammurabi.pdf

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/ED/TRC/MESO/law.html

 

I’ll complement with more later on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whew! I don't know where the discussion got sidetracked on the origins of Chrisitan belief. And, when I stated that I can't think of a major religion that is similar to the teachings of Christ, I should have said "existing."

 

No questions much of Judeo thought comes from pagan origins. The sacrificial system was not an invention of God but of local pagan religions. I believe most know that. However, the concepts of love, humility and service to others are quite unique to Judeo-Christian tradition. For example, towards the beginning of the first century and beyond, due to the influence of Paul, Christianity flourished because of the churches willingness to care for the needy. Food and clothing were given to the poor. Also, there was no "temple" tax as with all the other religions. Worship was free. My, my , how that has changed for some chrisitian organizations. Also, concept of the invisible God was extremely unique and well accepted by the philosphers in Greek and Rome at the time. No other religion had an invisible, unspecified god.

 

The most obvious is the Creator willingly turning his life over to those that he created. No god suffered and died for their people. And certainly, no God returned and paid a ransom for their salvation.

 

I must disagree with you. I think Christianity is quite unique.

 

About strapping on bombs ... come on. Even an exchristian like you would have to admit this kind of behavior would not be accepted by Jesus. Hitler claimed to be a Christian but I have my doubts.

 

It isn't an accident the Bible has been the best selling book for over 50 years, outselling by millions. It's not a book of answers. Christianity is not a theology of answers. It's not a book of law. It is a book of wisdom that points to the nature of God and His interaction with his creatures.

 

I also disagree that people do just as well making up their own code of ethics rather than using the Bible as a guideline. Good grief, look what happened to East Germany and the Soviet Union. Human rights: I don't think so.

 

Thank you for you comments.

[Vixentrox]

You can have your doubts whether Hitler was a Xtian, but according to "most" Xtian faiths, accepting Jesus brings you to heaven. Hitler and all his SS death camp aparatus could have just before thier deaths accepted Jesus and be in heaven....while the majority of the people they tortured and killed go to hell. Yeah...that's some kind of loving god justice there for yah....

[Antlerman]

Jesus says the way to hell is broad and many find it and that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it. And he means it: you don't get to heaven simply by being born, by being nice, or by oozing into an eternal growth experience. But "few" here does not mean that less than half of mankind will be saved. For God speaks as our Father, not our statistician. Even one child lost is too many, and the rest saved are too few. The good shepherd who left his ninety-nine sheep safe at home to rescue his one lost sheep found even 99 percent salvation too "few". The most important question about hell, as about heaven, is the practical one: What roads lead there? They are interior, of course. In fact, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place—namely God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite souls, just as the same opera or rock concert can be heavenly for you and hellish for the reluctant guest at your side. The fires of hell may be made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God's truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness. Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever. Just as we can attain heaven by implicit as well as explicit faith ("Saint Socrates, pray for us," says Erasmus), so hell too can be reached without explicit rebellion. This is the terrible—and terribly needed—truth taught by C. S. Lewis in The Great Divorce and Charles Williams in Descent into Hell. We can drift, slide, even snooze comfortably into hell. All God's messengers, the prophets, say so.

 

 

from Hell (an excerpt from the book Fundamentals of the Faith by Peter Kreeft from Ignatius Press : (I added the bold for emphasis).

 

-Dennis

Dennis,

 

You seem a sincere Christian, but all I see here is someone's hermeneutics. These sorts of interpretations and explanations say more about the person who accepts them then it does about any sort of real truth. Other Christians may reject this interpretation in favor of an entirely different one. Are they not as smart as someone who likes this spin, or is it pretty open-ended and really about the individual rather than some god?

 

Have you ever found yourself even the least bit shaken in your understandings of "truth" by how many different takes on these sorts of verses there have been throughout history? It's not a trite thing when I say there is a vast number of ways to interpret these things. I have heard and read so many takes on these ideas, that in the end all you have is a picture of people struggling to make sense of their faith. The Bible is not a true revelation about a god, it's a look at people who believe in one.

[Ouroboros]

Whew! I don't know where the discussion got sidetracked on the origins of Chrisitan belief. And, when I stated that I can't think of a major religion that is similar to the teachings of Christ, I should have said "existing."

We always sidetrack! Especially me…

 

No questions much of Judeo thought comes from pagan origins. The sacrificial system was not an invention of God but of local pagan religions. I believe most know that. However, the concepts of love, humility and service to others are quite unique to Judeo-Christian tradition. For example, towards the beginning of the first century and beyond, due to the influence of Paul, Christianity flourished because of the churches willingness to care for the needy. Food and clothing were given to the poor. Also, there was no "temple" tax as with all the other religions. Worship was free. My, my , how that has changed for some chrisitian organizations. Also, concept of the invisible God was extremely unique and well accepted by the philosphers in Greek and Rome at the time. No other religion had an invisible, unspecified god.

I haven’t studied the Gnostic Church much but I think they have very good teachings about love and care, and they claim their true roots are pre-Pauline, that John the Baptist was Gnostic.

 

The Christianity we know today was not the same that existed between 30 CE until 350 CE, when Constantine established the Orthodox Christianity. The teachings the Christian Church had until then was good and in my belief probably much less demanding or political in its structure. It became a power tool after Constantine, and I believe it was a bad move. Faith is personal and should stay that way, and not political.

 

The Gnostic had an unspecified God, and the remnants of the Gnostic Church (Essenes, Nazarites, Mandeans) today don’t admit Jesus being the Son of God.

http://essenes.net/vbelief.htm

 

The most obvious is the Creator willingly turning his life over to those that he created. No god suffered and died for their people. And certainly, no God returned and paid a ransom for their salvation.

 

I must disagree with you. I think Christianity is quite unique.

I think every religion is unique. Taoism is extremely fascinating, or Kabbalah, or Buddhism. Every religion is unique, and actually during one time there was a society with a king that was a Taoist, and they lived in peace and people were happy, but I think his successor screwed up, IIRC.

 

About strapping on bombs ... come on. Even an exchristian like you would have to admit this kind of behavior would not be accepted by Jesus. Hitler claimed to be a Christian but I have my doubts.

You have your doubts, but that’s only because you’ve been adjusted to a complacent version of Christianity, while its history has been rather violent and bloody. There are already Christian terrorists, and has been before too, it’s just that you don’t read about them in our newspapers.

 

Christian terrorists are not a huge group today, but with the increased tension between West and the Arab world, we could see an uprising of lunatics of this kind.

 

A few documented Christian Suicide terrorists:

http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html

TAC: There have been many kinds of non-Islamic suicide terrorists, but have there been Christian suicide terrorists?

RP: Not from Christian groups per se, but in Lebanon in the 1980s, of those suicide attackers, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were Communists and Socialists. Three were Christians.

 

It isn't an accident the Bible has been the best selling book for over 50 years, outselling by millions. It's not a book of answers. Christianity is not a theology of answers. It's not a book of law. It is a book of wisdom that points to the nature of God and His interaction with his creatures.

I thought Harry Potter was the best selling book today?

 

I also disagree that people do just as well making up their own code of ethics rather than using the Bible as a guideline. Good grief, look what happened to East Germany and the Soviet Union. Human rights: I don't think so.

Yeah I know, just look at America. A crazy Constitution based on free speech and freedom of religion, what a crazy idea! I believe in the freedom of though and ideas and I lean more towards the libertarian values. We have a right, and the right to protect it, but we have no right to enforce our ideas on others.

 

I believe Christianity has at least one flaw, proselytizing, to enforce the change of ideas and faiths unto people. That is to me a “mental rape”, and shouldn’t be allowed. We have a right to have a wall between Church and State, and this wall is eroding and that is NOT good.

 

I don’t think the OT law that says that disobedient kids should be killed is a moral law, I think that is disgusting. But on the other hand when Jesus said “love your neighbor” or “do to others”, that’s good examples of good teachings. But don’t make the whole Bible to the moral code for society, because they you’ll bring back the Inquisition, and you might have to join me to the torture chamber because of your loose and heretic beliefs.

 

Thank you for you comments.

You’re welcome.

[Ouroboros]

Han, this may come as a shock to SOME Christians but this teaching is not unique to Christianity.  For if Christians actually read the OT they would know that this AWESOME teaching is from none other than....drum roll please.....

 

Leviticus 19

    18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against ONE OF YOUR PEOPLE, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

 

I capitilized that one section because it suits the OT of offing in any way shape and form those who are not your people.  Well, actually it suits god/jesus threats of those who don't choose to be their people either.

I wanted to love my neighbor, but my wife didn't like the idea.

 

Just kidding!

[Ouroboros]

Alright Han, here is a  , for you, from me inplace of your wife.  LOL.. I get agitated when my husband watches the Charlie's Angels movies and does this face    to intentionally piss me off.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, my husband would absolutely think you were the "bomb" if he ever joins this site.

[white_raven23]

The most obvious is the Creator willingly turning his life over to those that he created. No god suffered and died for their people. And certainly, no God returned and paid a ransom for their salvation.

 

 

Did you read this?

 

"In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever."

 

It appears on the main page of this website. I don't know who the kudos for it goes to though. The webmaster? Well......kudos to whomever, it's a good one.

 

Anyway, that's a rusty merry-go-round I'll stay off of. Thanks.

 

Tetanus shot?

[John]

Ok, you guys are making this more complicated than it really is. God deliberately creates people, so they can fail His ridiculous test (genetics and the environment shape someone’s personality, duh). One just has to look at the ME (or any other regions with few or no practitioners of the Christian faith). simonpeter and God are both sadist since they derive pleasure from pain (bizarre). For instance, Einstein is in Hell being tortured for eternity (with absolutely no justification for this punishment), while simonpeter and God are receiving pleasure from this. ROTLMAO!

 

How bout we put God in Bahrain, and see how well He would do. Of course, He would fail miserably.

 

There is no indication that Adam and Eve were placed on this planet ignorant.

 

Of course, He deliberately created them that way, so they could sin. He could have created them with different personalities.

 

Your other good question is who's finger is on the trigger. Most fundamentalists believe that God is holding the gun and trigger. I happen to believe that Satan carries the weapon and Jesus will disarm him if we ask.

 

No, Satan just does the punishment for God. God creates the asinine rules, duh.

 

How could Adam and Eve know what they were doing was wrong if they had no concept of "WRONG" before eating the apple?

 

Quit arguing about this since the entire apple idea is absurd! Knowledge isn’t gained from eating stuff, duh.

 

His most trusted angel, rebelled and took one-third of God's angels with him.

 

He is all-knowing! You don’t even know your own Bible! Also, God cannot be omniscient since He cannot know an infinite amount of things. He would still be learning. ROTFLMAO!

 

If you are caught robbing a bank are your parents responsible?

 

You already contradicted the Bible since I’m responsible for Eve eating the forbidden fruit!

 

And, when I stated that I can't think of a major religion that is similar to the teachings of Christ, I should have said "existing."

 

Uh, Islam, Buddhism, etc.

 

The most obvious is the Creator willingly turning his life over to those that he created. No god suffered and died for their people. And certainly, no God returned and paid a ransom for their salvation.

 

Jesus never did sacrifice Himself. Of course, He never did feel anything since He is supposedly simultaneously three. LMAO!

 

It is a book of wisdom that points to the nature of God and His interaction with his creatures.

 

The Bible is very ignorant... very psuedoscientific.

 

I also disagree that people do just as well making up their own code of ethics rather than using the Bible as a guideline. Good grief, look what happened to East Germany and the Soviet Union. Human rights: I don't think so.

 

This has nothing to do with moral codes. It has to do with the political and economic systems. The Soviet Union was a totalitarian state, duh! Why is our country so great? Well, this is due to the Enlightenment ideas, which helped encouraged people’s sense of individualism, and the essential belief in equal rights. This led to the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Glorious Revolution in Britain and the Latin American Revolutions.

 

Free Will means that you have the freedom to chose (in the case of this topic) who you will serve.

 

BEAR IN MIND, GENETICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT INFLUENCES SOMEONE’S ACTIONS. LET’S SUPPOSE YOU’RE BORN IN BAHRAIN, YOU WOULD WITHOUT A DOUBT BE MUSLIM. IN FACT, YOU WOULDN’T EVEN HEAR ABOUT CHRISTIANITY!

[NimbusBirdMgp]

(I had some thoughts. Didn't get to read all the Post in this Thread.)

 

I sometimes get the thoughts that we are living Hell now. Cause of all the things we can't work out with other life on this planet.

 

And it's 100 plus + degrees in Sacramento, California now and that is Hell for me!!! Not even getting below 78 at 2:00 AM in the middle of the night morning hours and didn't seem like it was comfortable in the morning hours at 73 (probably.) Yeak!

 

Well? Some Monster is probably causing a stir of trouble in this world and not much from some idea benelovent God in my mind.

 

When its 73 degrees or cooler, with Clouds and not the Sun. And I get to find my chick\gal for intimacy. Then maybe there is a good place for me? But some God has got to do better for us all on these personal things.

[simonpeter]

Ok, you guys are making this more complicated than it really is. God deliberately creates people, so they can fail His ridiculous test (genetics and the environment shape someone’s personality, duh). One just has to look at the ME (or any other regions with few or no practitioners of the Christian faith). simonpeter and God are both sadist since they derive pleasure from pain (bizarre). For instance, Einstein is in Hell being tortured for eternity (with absolutely no justification for this punishment), while simonpeter and God are receiving pleasure from this. ROTLMAO!

 

How bout we put God in Bahrain, and see how well He would do. Of course, He would fail miserably.

Of course, He deliberately created them that way, so they could sin. He could have created them with different personalities.

No, Satan just does the punishment for God. God creates the asinine rules, duh.

Quit arguing about this since the entire apple idea is absurd! Knowledge isn’t gained from eating stuff, duh.

He is all-knowing! You don’t even know your own Bible! Also, God cannot be omniscient since He cannot know an infinite amount of things. He would still be learning. ROTFLMAO!

 

You already contradicted the Bible since I’m responsible for Eve eating the forbidden fruit!

Uh, Islam, Buddhism, etc.

Jesus never did sacrifice Himself. Of course, He never did feel anything since He is supposedly simultaneously three. LMAO!

The Bible is very ignorant... very psuedoscientific.

This has nothing to do with moral codes. It has to do with the political and economic systems. The Soviet Union was a totalitarian state, duh! Why is our country so great? Well, this is due to the Enlightenment ideas, which helped encouraged people’s sense of individualism, and the essential belief in equal rights. This led to the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Glorious Revolution in Britain and the Latin American Revolutions.

BEAR IN MIND, GENETICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT INFLUENCES SOMEONE’S ACTIONS. LET’S SUPPOSE YOU’RE BORN IN BAHRAIN, YOU WOULD WITHOUT A DOUBT BE MUSLIM. IN FACT, YOU WOULDN’T EVEN HEAR ABOUT CHRISTIANITY!

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Thank you for your comments, John. Too many things to respond to so I'll select my favorites. First, you don't know me and yet you have determined that I take pleasure (a sadist) in the suffering of others. I make no pretense of knowing the "fate" of Einstein or any other person. God did not elect me to pass judgement which is a good thing.

 

Islam -- a derivitive of Judeism and Christianity. Mohammad believed and stated Jesus was a prophet and believed him to be a good man. Mohammad, however, developed his "religion" because he felt that Jesus went too far with the freedoms that he offered. Mohammad objected to the equality of woman among a host of other things as well as objected to the simplicity of salvation. Buddhism -- give me a break. Buddhism, and there are countless sects, all have one thing in common: self centeredness and preparation for death. I was a Buddhist for 10 years, have lived in Japan twice and traveled most of East Asia.

 

Don't know why you're responsible for eating the fruit. You don't believe in the story so why use it as your argument? Knowledge not gained from eating? Was it the ingestion or the act?

 

Concerning the Bible, you have accused me of not knowing my Bible. I do admit that I remain a student of the Bible. Many believe that the purpose of the O.T. is God's attempt to reveal aspects of Himself. I think we have a different view of the Bible. Evidence is very strong that God does learn. Jesus brought the new covenant because the old one didn't work. It says that in the Bible. When God flooded the earth God expresses regret and says that he'll never do it again. That implies a learning experience for Him. The God described in the book of Job is quite different than the one in the Book of Jonah. While you may prefer an immovable God I happen to like a flexible God.