Did God Create hell?

[NotBlinded]

One last comment and then you can shoot me down. You don't know Christianity. You may have been a pretend Christian. I was for the first 21 years of my life. I left the faith for thirty more years and now a believer for 8 years. If you were a Christian you would have learned that it teaches that we are not super important but extremely broken and undeserving of His grace. I appreciate the grace you have shown by telling me where to shove things.

Oh...I just gotta get in on this.

 

I'll ignore the part about being a pretend christian...now on to the good part:

 

You are absolutely correct but, superfically. I just hate that it does teach that you are a broken and undeserving individual. Really...I just hate that. What moral code does one live by that is so vile that it is okay to teach people that they are broken and undeserving? Will you tell me that that only applies to god and not to people?

 

People have a hard time separating reality (phycial) from spiritual (non-physical). You have just shown that you do it too by relating what you are to god with what you are to people. You are broken and undeserving of "HIS" grace, but does that apply to what you are now? Do you consider being a christian the only way to please god? You are a part of the group of idividuals that are chosen and favored by Him amongst others because you are a christian? A little bit of conflicting teachings allow people to get confused. It does and will continue to happen until we are able to teach our children that they are deserving and they are not broken and they can accomplish anything they desire within their situational boundries.

 

How can you teach a child that they are worthy and can accomplish great things here and then turn around and tell them that they are unworthy of god's grace yet they are, being christian and unworthy, part of the ONLY group that is worthy enough to meet god?

 

So, I see you as being both right and wrong because it does teach that you are unworthy, but it also teaches that you are part of an 'elite' group. What's a person to do?

[simonpeter]

Oh...I just gotta get in on this.

 

I'll ignore the part about being a pretend christian...now on to the good part:

 

You are absolutely correct but, superfically.  I just hate that it does teach that you are a broken and undeserving individual.  Really...I just hate that.  What moral code does one live by that is so vile that it is okay to teach people that they are broken and undeserving?  Will you tell me that that only applies to god and not to people? 

 

People have a hard time separating reality (phycial) from spiritual (non-physical).  You have just shown that you do it too by relating what you are to god with what you are to people.  You are broken and undeserving of "HIS" grace, but does that apply to what you are now?  Do you consider being a christian the only way to please god?  You are a part of the group of idividuals that are chosen and favored by Him amongst others because you are a christian?  A little bit of conflicting teachings allow people to get confused.  It does and will continue to happen until we are able to teach our children that they are deserving and they are not broken and they can accomplish anything they desire within their situational boundries. 

 

How can you teach a child that they are worthy and can accomplish great things here and then turn around and tell them that they are unworthy of god's grace yet they are, being christian and unworthy, part of the ONLY group that is worthy enough to meet god?

 

So, I see you as being both right and wrong because it does teach that you are unworthy, but it also teaches that you are part of an 'elite' group.  What's a person to do?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What an excellent point! In my experience with Christianity, there is one central theme that is present in all the various sects. And that is children hold a special place in the heart of God over those of us who are of the age of consciousness, whatever that is. As a child, I don't recall any preacher or Sunday school teacher telling a child they are unworthy. Quite the opposite. Children are taught they are special. The hammer seems to come down when we reach that age of being intellectually equipped to make a choice. For example, most Fundamentalists (I believe) would agree that mentally challenged individuals, whether child or adult, get an automatic pass. It's difficult to substantiate this belief in the scriptures, but it is believed.

 

Now, this is not an issue that Christians should continually beat themselves up with on a regular basis. Rather, this business of being unworthy is a wakeup call or reminder that we're not all that. That, we are not higher rated than anyone around us, whether they are believers or not. We are here on this planet to serve and not be be served. We are here to love and not to judge. We are to forgive, turn the other cheek and all that. However, at that moment when we feel we have achieved righteousness in the eyes of God, we need to regroup and realize that we are a work in progress.

[dogmatically_challenged]

(simonpeter @ Jul 12 2005, 11:00 PM)

 

Suppose you discover that hell is not a creation of God; that, it is a creation of a being, an evil who is only concerned with torturing and murdering mankind. Would your opinion of God change?

 

Simon, have your debate here in this forum. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. jesus invented hell. I already knew that. hehe.

 

 

No Simon. Even the Jewish faith is incoherent..so no it wouldn't change my mind. hehe.

[Vixentrox]

What an excellent point! In my experience with Christianity, there is one central theme that is present in all the various sects. And that is children hold a special place in the heart of God over those of us who are of the age of consciousness, whatever that is. As a child, I don't recall any preacher or Sunday school teacher telling a child they are unworthy. Quite the opposite. Children are taught they are special. The hammer seems to come down when we reach that age of being intellectually equipped to make a choice. For example, most Fundamentalists (I believe) would agree that mentally challenged individuals, whether child or adult, get an automatic pass. It's difficult to substantiate this belief in the scriptures, but it is believed.

 

Now, this is not an issue that Christians should continually beat themselves up with on a regular basis. Rather, this business of being unworthy is a wakeup call or reminder that we're not all that. That, we are not higher rated than anyone around us, whether they are believers or not. We are here on this planet to serve and not be be served. We are here to love and not to judge. We are to forgive, turn the other cheek and all that. However, at that moment when we feel we have achieved righteousness in the eyes of God, we need to regroup and realize that we are a work in progress.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Remember the she-bears who god ordered to rip apart children becuase they were...OMG...being kids!?

 

Oh oh...here is one, remember that little pharoh incident were GOD hardened pharoh's heart just so he could send his death angel to kill the INNOCENT little 1st born baby boys.

 

Yeah, that's a special place in god's heart all right.......

[Ouroboros]

Remember the she-bears who god ordered to rip apart children becuase they were...OMG...being kids!?

 

Oh oh...here is one, remember that little pharoh incident were GOD hardened pharoh's heart just so he could send his death angel to kill the INNOCENT little 1st born baby boys.

 

Yeah, that's a special place in god's heart all right.......

And God didn't do smack when the babies were kill when Jesus was born.

[simonpeter]

Well said.  The hades thing was irking the hell out of me as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Have been preoccupied with work.

 

Not a major point with me but I will address the Hades issue. You are correct that Hades is from Greek mythology. In the original O.T. text the word "Sheol" is used 65 times. In ancient Jewish thought, Sheol is a place of the dead were the wicked are punished. When the O.T. was translated from Hebrew into Greek, the word "Hades" was used. It is not known how seriously the pre-Christ Jews believed in Sheol. However, sacrifices were offered not only for the living but for the dead to purge them from this place. More is known at the time of Christ. We know there was a division among the "religious" Jews concerning afterlife and punishment. The Sadducees believed only in the Torah (the first five books of the O.T.) and did not believe in life after death. The Pharisees believed in Sheol - Hades and the entire O.T. They believed that their good deeds would give them a pass from Sheol and they would live with God.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Have been preoccupied with work.

 

Not a major point with me but I will address the Hades issue. You are correct that Hades is from Greek mythology. In the original O.T. text the word "Sheol" is used 65 times. In ancient Jewish thought, Sheol is a place of the dead were the wicked are punished. When the O.T. was translated from Hebrew into Greek, the word "Hades" was used. It is not known how seriously the pre-Christ Jews believed in Sheol. However, sacrifices were offered not only for the living but for the dead to purge them from this place. More is known at the time of Christ. We know there was a division among the "religious" Jews concerning afterlife and punishment. The Sadducees believed only in the Torah (the first five books of the O.T.) and did not believe in life after death. The Pharisees believed in Sheol - Hades and the entire O.T. They believed that their good deeds would give them a pass from Sheol and they would live with God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is also a jewish belief that sheol opens up every year during sabath. At that time everyone is let out. If I remember right some jews and christians believed in reincarnation as well.

 

Most jews that I talk to don't believe in hell at all BTW.

 

The N.T. that is pushed by many different bibles today describe an eternal place. A place you don't want to go to thats for sure.

 

As far as satan goes I can't see were he created hell according to the tanakh. I could be wrong though, but I don't think so.

 

If there ever was a jesus I think people put words in his mouth and it got written down and kept in tradition. ( our bibles)

[simonpeter]

There is also a jewish belief that sheol opens up every year during sabath. At that time everyone is let out. If I remember right some jews and christians believed in reincarnation as well.

 

Most jews that I talk to don't believe in hell at all BTW.

 

The N.T. that is pushed by many different bibles today describe an eternal place. A place you don't want to go to thats for sure.

 

As far as satan goes I can't see were he created hell according to the tanakh. I could be wrong though, but I don't think so.

 

If there ever was a jesus I think people put words in his mouth and it got written down and kept in tradition. ( our bibles)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right about reincarnation. However, this did not creep into the Jewish and Christian community until the early first century.

 

Every Jew that I have talked to does not believe in hell. I worked in Skokie, Il -- suburb of Chicago -- for three years which is a heavily Jewish community. However, there is a great number of "Chrisitians" that also do not believe in hell.

 

Who created Hell? No one knows. Concerning Satan, there is a number of theologians that believe Satan does (or did) have some creative powers. According to the Bible, he was the most trusted and powerful of the angels and God him in control of the earth before the fall.

 

Can't prove to you that there was a Jesus just as no one can prove there is a God.

All I can say is my life in 100% better as I continue to struggle with his teachings.

[dogmatically_challenged]

You are right about reincarnation. However, this did not creep into the Jewish and Christian community until the early first century.

 

Every Jew that I have talked to does not believe in hell. I worked in Skokie, Il -- suburb of Chicago -- for three years which is a heavily Jewish community. However, there is a great number of "Chrisitians" that also do not believe in hell.

 

Who created Hell? No one knows. Concerning Satan, there is a number of theologians that believe Satan does (or did) have some creative powers. According to the Bible, he was the most trusted and powerful of the angels and God him in control of the earth before the fall.

 

Can't prove to you that there was a Jesus just as no one can prove there is a God.

All I can say is my life in 100% better as I continue to struggle with his teachings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn. What you post here is just so sensible and unassuming. Damn you! hehe.

 

As far as theologians go I think they are glorified spin doctors who are only reasonable when it suits them.

 

If I were you I would continue to look for different takes on jesus that still exist in the world today. Yes they probably evolved since thier earliest traditions, but still you can learn a lot from that I recon. You are probably already doing this huh? After all why believe what the victors say is true?

[simonpeter]

Damn. What you post here is just so sensible and unassuming. Damn you! hehe.

 

As far as theologians go I think they are glorified spin doctors who are only reasonable when it suits them.

 

If I were you I would continue to look for different takes on jesus that still exist in the world today. Yes they probably evolved since thier earliest traditions, but still you can learn a lot from that I recon. You are probably already doing this huh? After all why believe what the victors say is true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I carry the same concerns about thologians as you do. However, they can be interesting and even enlightening at times. From what I have read and heard from most rabbi's, few of them doubt Jesus existed. We have one rabbi in town and he's on TV every week and he firmly believes that Jesus was a real person and a great teacher. Where we part ways is the Son of God, Messiah issue. By faith, I believe Jesus was and is.

 

Here's the deal. Fundamentalists and most exchristians on this sitet get too uptight about specifics in both the O.T. and N.T. Both tomes are riddled with errors: historical and blatent inconsistancies. Fundamentalists refuse to acknowledge or lie about these problems and exchristians take great pleasure in pointing out these problems.

 

I study the bible on a regular basis, looking for patterns. Here's one that hit me in the forehead the other day. During the Last Supper, the night Jesus is arrested, he asks his disciples if anyone is carrying swords. They reply they have two. Jesus says that enough. Later, when Jesus is arrested, Peter pulls out the sword and cuts off the ear of one of the soldiers. Jesus admonishes him saying, "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword," disarming Peter from doing any further damage. Now, if I were Peter, I'd be pissed. I'd say, "Come on Jesus! Earlier you asked us if we had swords. You approved. Then, when I use mine to defend you, you chew me out. What the hell is going on here?"

 

This inconsistancy doesn't discourage me. I'm intregued. Is it possible that my Jesus was inconsistant? Wow! And if Jesus is really God, could God be inconsistant? Wow. Me gots to learn more.

 

I've written too much.

[Ouroboros]

Hold the phone....if this doesn't prove the Satan theory false, I don't know what else does.  If you believe that then, you have just blatantly and inadvertantly pointed out that the Almighty trusted the most EVIL BEAST mankind has ever known.  Do you really think that low of your "creator?

Good point. How can you trust someone, and knowing that they will rise up against you. God knew what Satan would do, and trust is based on expecting someone to be a certain way. So if God trusted Satan, it was only that he trusted that Satan would fall and become evil.

[Vixentrox]

....which therefor must have been god's plan all along. What a miserable piece of shit.

[Ouroboros]

....which therefor must have been god's plan all along.  What a miserable piece of shit.

Yup. It was God divine plan to bring evil to the world, let us have a free choice, and if we choose wrong (even if it was against our knowledge), we would be punished for eternity.

 

Man! Doesn't it sound like someone trying to push every idea as far as it goes?

 

Everything is the super or supreme of something.

 

God is All-powerfull, All-good, all this and all that

 

Evil is all-evil, all-stupid, all bad and stuff

 

We are all stupid, all unknowing, all sinning, not knowing fully what to do to do it right

 

And then the punishment is all time, forever, burning, super-duper-exterme pain. etc

 

And reward is never cry again, all hunky-dory, lalalalala

 

The whole layup is like the old fairytales, "The big, big dog, ate the little little rat, and he walked and walked for days and nights until he came to a big, big house, and the nice nice man in the big big house ... and so on..."

[dogmatically_challenged]

I don't care if jesus existed or not my atheism does not depend on jesus being a myth. If he did exist then I want to know who he really was. I feel that is our right and academia owes us when they find real evidence for him.

 

If we ever find out who jesus really was and he turns out to be a better jesus than what we were given by the victors I'll rub xian noses right in it and claim jesus as my teacher and philosopher even if I do not agree with everything he said. hehe

[simonpeter]

....which therefor must have been god's plan all along.  What a miserable piece of shit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For Hanssolo, Vixen and Thankful.

I am in total agreement that "most" Christians believe the omni-stuff about God. Most Christians believe God is all knowing and the like. However, there are some of us who take a different view of God. There is a line of thought called "Openness Theism" that takes the view that God may not know every detail of the future; that, some is left up to chance. This is not my invention. John Sanders wrote a book on Openness Theism called, "The God Who Risks." I'm not trying to push a book onto anyone but it makes a lot of sense to me. His book has caused a huge unroar in the fundamentalist world. Yet, he documents from the Bible every one of his claims quite carefully. For those who don't think the Bible has any credibility then Sander's book would be a waste of time.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I don't care if jesus existed or not my atheism does not depend on jesus being a myth. If he did exist then I want to know who he really was. I feel that is our right and academia owes us when they find real evidence for him.

 

If we ever find out who jesus really was and he turns out to be a better jesus than what we were given by the victors I'll rub xian noses right in it and claim jesus as my teacher and philosopher even if I do not agree with everything he said. hehe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bump. hehe. What if he never claimed to have "The Truth?" but gave good advise and hated bible worship. hehe.

 

I allow hero's to be fallable and human and do not have to agree with everything they have said and done. I don't see us finding such a jesus as I describe, but I can fantasize can't I?

[simonpeter]

I don't care if jesus existed or not my atheism does not depend on jesus being a myth. If he did exist then I want to know who he really was. I feel that is our right and academia owes us when they find real evidence for him.

 

If we ever find out who jesus really was and he turns out to be a better jesus than what we were given by the victors I'll rub xian noses right in it and claim jesus as my teacher and philosopher even if I do not agree with everything he said. hehe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That aboy! I've got to ask this question of you. Your nameplate describes you as an exchristian evangelist. Does that mean you were once a Christian Evangelist or an evangelist to encourage exchristians? Just curious.

[Vixentrox]

For Hanssolo, Vixen and Thankful.

I am in total agreement that "most" Christians believe the omni-stuff about God. Most Christians believe God is all knowing and the like. However, there are some of us who take a different view of God. There is a line of thought called "Openness Theism" that takes the view that God may not know every detail of the future; that, some is left up to chance. This is not my invention. John Sanders wrote a book on Openness Theism called, "The God Who Risks." I'm not trying to push a book onto anyone but it makes a lot of sense to me. His book has caused a huge unroar in the fundamentalist world. Yet, he documents from the Bible every one of his claims quite carefully. For those who don't think the Bible has any credibility then Sander's book would be a waste of time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course, that gives a Xtian a lot wiggle room to justify or explain away certain things. I've never heard a Xtian accept this line of thought, that god might not know everything. That brings him down a few notches, more on par with your run of the mill god/goddess.

[dogmatically_challenged]

That aboy! I've got to ask this question of you. Your nameplate describes you as an exchristian evangelist. Does that mean you were once a Christian Evangelist or an evangelist to encourage exchristians? Just curious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. I only have my understanding of the bible as well as the conflicting understandings of my parents and relatives. I am nothing special.

 

I do openly reject every scripture that offends me and I also have my favorite scriptures from the bible as well. I also hate bible worship or the notion that the bible is the word of a god. I try to deconvert Christians.

 

Philosophers and teachers are just men and womem. Human beings. If I can find merit in what they have said and done I'll give 'em credit for those things but I will also openly reject what I don't agree with. Same with jesus. I will never accept him as a god or prophet. But a philosopher maybe. It dependes on who jesus really was.

[Ouroboros]

For Hanssolo, Vixen and Thankful.

I am in total agreement that "most" Christians believe the omni-stuff about God. Most Christians believe God is all knowing and the like. However, there are some of us who take a different view of God. There is a line of thought called "Openness Theism" that takes the view that God may not know every detail of the future; that, some is left up to chance. This is not my invention. John Sanders wrote a book on Openness Theism called, "The God Who Risks." I'm not trying to push a book onto anyone but it makes a lot of sense to me. His book has caused a huge unroar in the fundamentalist world. Yet, he documents from the Bible every one of his claims quite carefully. For those who don't think the Bible has any credibility then Sander's book would be a waste of time.

I never heard of that one! Interesting! Seriously!

 

It's like Aristotele then, Deism and God is a demiurge, not necessarely perfect or all-knowing. But I'm sure the fundies won't approve to this theology, it's too softy.

[simonpeter]

Of course, that gives a Xtian a lot wiggle room to justify or explain away certain things.  I've never heard a Xtian accept this line of thought, that god might not know everything.  That brings him down a few notches, more on par with your run of the mill god/goddess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Go on line and look up John Sanders or Openness Theism. According to "Christianity Today" he is rated as one of the top theologians of our age. There are too many incidences in the Bible where it is apparent that God is truly surprised but what has taken place. Openness Theism says that God put certain things in motion, allowing predictability, like the seasons, the tide, etc. But, in order to respond to his creatures he "may" not know every detail of the future.

[Vixentrox]

Go on line and look up John Sanders or Openness Theism. According to "Christianity Today" he is rated as one of the top theologians of our age. There are too many incidences in the Bible where it is apparent that God is truly surprised but what has taken place. Openness Theism says that God put certain things in motion, allowing predictability, like the seasons, the tide, etc. But, in order to respond to his creatures he "may" not know every detail of the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Does that mean sin can enter heaven becuase god might not know? Does it mean he might mistake a satan worshiper for one of his Jesus worshipers?

[Ouroboros]

Go on line and look up John Sanders or Openness Theism. According to "Christianity Today" he is rated as one of the top theologians of our age. There are too many incidences in the Bible where it is apparent that God is truly surprised but what has taken place. Openness Theism says that God put certain things in motion, allowing predictability, like the seasons, the tide, etc. But, in order to respond to his creatures he "may" not know every detail of the future.

I really like that approach! Finally something new in Theology. But truly it does sounds more like a generic Theism or Deism rather than Christianity...

[simonpeter]

Does that mean sin can enter heaven becuase god might not know?  Does it mean he might mistake a satan worshiper for one of his Jesus worshipers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You wish.

[Vixentrox]

Don't you?