Your Opinions On Jesus?

[Abiyoyo]

As a former active Christian, Did anyone here believe that Jesus was actually God when they were Christians?

[Deva]

What is the point of this question? Why does it matter? That was then, this is now.

[Ouroboros]

As a former active Christian, Did anyone here believe that Jesus was actually God when they were Christians?

Eh... yeah, I did. So?

[RevOxley_501]

I did and i would have defended it to the death

 

 

see Hypostatic Union

[Spiderwire]

Of course. Without Christ, ya can't very well have Christianity, now then, can you?

[Brother Jeff]

As a former active Christian, Did anyone here believe that Jesus was actually God when they were Christians?

Yes, but like Han said, so what?

[Abiyoyo]

What is the point of this question? Why does it matter? That was then, this is now.

 

 

I wanted peoples opinions from a "been there" "done that" and currently not perspective. I was thinking about religion, church and just started running scripture in my head, and wondered why alot of church goers say Jesus is God. From what I gathered, He's not.

[Abiyoyo]

I want to add that there are many here that were very deep into Christianity, and I hoped to ask those that "did" believe he was actually God as a man, Why? There is no scripture to absolutely pin that, and much that says otherwise. Just hoped to get some reasoning from a different perspective.

[par4dcourse]

Maybe in a past life, but he's my neighbor's gardner now. He does still work miracles with the fescue, though.

[Spiderwire]

There is no scripture to absolutely pin that...

 

That's not true at all. There are several scriptural references to Jesus calling himself God. By the way, every hear of the name Emmanuel?

[The-Captain]

I often wondered myself when I was a christian, but I still accepted it as true out of necessity to my belief.

[Ouroboros]

I wanted peoples opinions from a "been there" "done that" and currently not perspective. I was thinking about religion, church and just started running scripture in my head, and wondered why alot of church goers say Jesus is God. From what I gathered, He's not.

Ah, I see. I respect the frank and honest approach from you.

 

I think the Gospels give the image of Jesus as a man only, and that God is inside him, rather than he is God. One of the quotes have Jesus say that we all are gods too.

 

The first couple of centuries after the rise of Christianity, there were many conflicting opinions and competing cults. Some did not consider Jesus as God, and some did not believe in the trinity, etc. Later, only one were made to be the orthodox belief, and the other ones had to be destroyed. Amazing how God's word, with absolute knowledge and truth, was forced into the churches, and that they even could disagree on such fundamental "truths" of their own religion...

[Ouroboros]

That's not true at all. There are several scriptural references to Jesus calling himself God. By the way, every hear of the name Emmanuel?

It's such a long time ago I read the Bible, so I don't remember. Do you know which verse?

 

Emmanuel means something like "God with us", if I recall correctly, and doesn't really point to a father-son relationship.

[BlueGiant]

Ok, you asked a serious and valid question.

 

Yes, I believed Jesus was God (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit). At one point I believed the whole Nicene Creed, though pieces of that were the first to fall on my way out. I knew I was saved. I knew that I was an Instrument of God, that Jesus had a plan for me, and that the whole Trinity loved me. The Holy Spirit would give me strength. I was patently offended at those who went through the motions of being religious (and I still am, strangely for similar reasons, I can't stand the fakery).

 

I still remember the feeling I would get focusing on my relationship with Christ. I knew that there was an inevitable good that would win.

 

In short I bought it hook, line, and sinker. Made it a central part of my identity. Suffice it to say, that when I realized that it was the greatest story ever sold, it hurt a bit. When I realized that Christianity, particularly conservative evangelical forms along with the RCC form was demonstrably false, well, that hurt a bit. There was a lot I had used Christianity to hide from myself, a lot of questions I didn't ask.

 

I only freed myself when I asked honestly, when I did research asked hard questions and was willing (though I will not say I was entirely prepared for what ensued) to accept the truth. After all, the ultimate truth can stand up to scrutiny, ne?

 

At the time the fully God and fully man aspect of Jesus was plausible to me, after all if God is indeed all powerful, he should be able to do something like that. Restricting God to just God was too small, if that makes sense.

 

Does this help to answer your question?

[Deva]

Yes, I certainly did believe it when I was a Christian. I was raised Baptist and that was a part of the package. It was only many years later that I learned that the Chruch fought over the question of the true nature of Christ for centuries.

[Neon Genesis]

Yes, I believed that Jesus was god in the flesh. There were two main reasons why I accepted this. The first was because of John 8:57-59,

So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

 

58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, (CW)I am."

 

59Therefore they (CX)picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus (CY)hid Himself and went out of the temple.

When Jesus said he was "I am" before Abraham was born, I always had interpreted this to mean that Jesus was Yahweh himself because Yahweh often referred to himself as "I am" in the bible, such as in Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, "[a](A)I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

That was why I believed the Jews were so pissed off at Jesus because he was calling himself god. The other reason I believed it was because in Genesis 1:26, Yahweh says

Then God said, "Let (AE)Us make (AF)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (AG)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

I used to interpret the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 to be referring to the Trinity and that Jesus was there as God simultaneously when he created the universe.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, I believed that Jesus was god in the flesh. There were two main reasons why I accepted this. The first was because of John 8:57-59,

So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

 

58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, (CW)I am."

 

59Therefore they (CX)picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus (CY)hid Himself and went out of the temple.

When Jesus said he was "I am" before Abraham was born, I always had interpreted this to mean that Jesus was Yahweh himself because Yahweh often referred to himself as "I am" in the bible, such as in Exodus 3:14.

 

God said to Moses, "[a](A)I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

 

That was why I believed the Jews were so pissed off at Jesus because he was calling himself god. The other reason I believed it was because in Genesis 1:26, Yahweh says

Then God said, "Let (AE)Us make (AF)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (AG)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

I used to interpret the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 to be referring to the Trinity and that Jesus was there as God simultaneously when he created the universe.

Here's the weird thing though, I did a look into the Greek words, and the combination ego eimi is used several other times in the NT, like Mat 3:11, so the phrasing in itself "I AM" isn't unique, and not used that time only, but in the other cases there were no rocks picked up to throw at him.

 

I suspect that the first quote is really about the idea that someone could have a soul even before they were born. In other words, the idea that a soul wasn't created in the womb, but from eternity to eternity, could have been a heresy to the scribes, because it would give you similar qualities as God, but not necessarily would it mean that you would have to be God. (Just some thoughts)

[florduh]

Standard Christianity requires belief in the deity of Jesus.

 

My former pastor (who is intelligent and learned) was a Jehova's Witness until his studies led him to the conclusion that Jesus was part of the Triune God. He got excited about that discovery and went to seminary.

 

The version of the Bible we currently have in popular usage does support that idea strongly. In my own studies, it seemed quite obvious that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were aspects of one god.

[Abiyoyo]

Here's the weird thing though, I did a look into the Greek words, and the combination ego eimi is used several other times in the NT, like Mat 3:11, so the phrasing in itself "I AM" isn't unique, and not used that time only, but in the other cases there were no rocks picked up to throw at him.

 

I suspect that the first quote is really about the idea that someone could have a soul even before they were born. In other words, the idea that a soul wasn't created in the womb, but from eternity to eternity, could have been a heresy to the scribes, because it would give you similar qualities as God, but not necessarily would it mean that you would have to be God. (Just some thoughts)

 

Thanks for the good responses everyone. This is my mind bender, the scripture that is on that thin line of declaring Jesus God. The "I Am" scripture used to be my foundation, yet after looking further and learning more about the characteristic and MO of the Holy Spirit, I started questioning Jesus being God. Especially after I became friends and still am friends with a Muslim which also shed light on the idea.

 

The Muslim do make sense in one thing, they worship God, Allah, and Him alone. They even include Jesus in there belief, they just don't worship Him, and they don't think He is the ONLY way to everlasting life.

 

Here's some scripture that queried my mind to explore this.

 

Matt 10:20

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. (KJV)

 

Matt 12:18

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. (KJV)

 

 

John 3:34-35

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

(KJV)

[RevOxley_501]

i had some hangups on this whilst i was coming out of the faith YoYo...one of many questions your faith will either stand up to or fail against.

 

Either way, this is seen as a Cardinal Doctrine, as I am sure you and everyone here is fully aware of, and denying this is as good as denying that god exists in the eyes of The Nicaean Creed (seemingly all that matters to the modern church anyway)...so either you keep pushing for Truth, or you stop now and forever keep your peace---this is where it gets really rocky if you choose the former...its dangerous territory from here out.

 

 

One of my conclusions about this issue was that God, if existent... would be defiling his status as "love" (God is Love) if he were to leave questions like this, that may be make or break for us, up for discussion. It requires more than a grain of faith to believe Christ is God, and now since Deity of Christ is considered Cardinal, it takes alot of balls and faith to believe that Christ is not God. No matter what the answer is, God is a cruel bastard to leave us with these sort of insecure answers.

[Abiyoyo]

Also wanted to add these

 

 

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (KJV)

 

 

Luke 17:21

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (KJV)

[Abiyoyo]

i had some hangups on this whilst i was coming out of the faith YoYo...one of many questions your faith will either stand up to or fail against.

 

Either way, this is seen as a Cardinal Doctrine, as I am sure you and everyone here is fully aware of, and denying this is as good as denying that god exists in the eyes of The Nicaean Creed (seemingly all that matters to the modern church anyway)...so either you keep pushing for Truth, or you stop now and forever keep your peace---this is where it gets really rocky if you choose the former...its dangerous territory from here out.

 

 

One of my conclusions about this issue was that God, if existent... would be defiling his status as "love" (God is Love) if he were to leave questions like this, that may be make or break for us, up for discussion. It requires more than a grain of faith to believe Christ is God, and now since Deity of Christ is considered Cardinal, it takes alot of balls and faith to believe that Christ is not God. No matter what the answer is, God is a cruel bastard to leave us with these sort of insecure answers.

 

I know your point oh to well. Definitely, most church goers usually detach themselves from this logic. Satanic or misunderstood, is the usual blame for what I refer to as, Researching the truth of my faith. I hate that, when you KNOW something to be true, try to convey the message, to be looked at as a crazy, a "little off".

 

My general overview is this. Jesus was the Messiah, had the Holy Spirit on Him without measure, and fulfilled God's word. Also, according to the scripture saying the Holy Spirit will give us the words to say; Jesus being with the Holy Spirit unmeasured tells me that the Holy Spirit possibly could have said the I Am, referring to It, not Jesus.

[Antlerman]

The Gospel of John is the big one of the divinity of Jesus. I think it's emphasis is a much later take on the Jesus figure than what you see in the synoptic Gospels when Jesus is much more "the son of man". John is the one the pretty clearly lays out an adapting of Trinity theology in relation to Christ, making him an eternally existent person in relations with God as a equal, of the same essence of God in the first 14 verses of his Gospel. Its Logos is tapping into both the Greco-Roman understanding of God as invisible and untouchable being manifest through an agent of himself, "Through him all things were made that were made", and the Memra of Jehovah in Jewish thought as the personification or manifestor of God. The Memra would be God in the form of an angel for instance, or Wisdom personified. John deliberately using these existing concepts about God as a vehicle to communicate the Christian message, making Christ this divine Revealer of God. "And the Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us".

 

The rest of John keeps coming back to this, "I and the Father are one". "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Before Abraham was, I AM", "The Holy Spirit shall come to you and I shall be in you", etc.

 

However, I don't see the writers of the synoptic Gospels viewing him this way. There's a definite evolution of Jesus that occurs, so it is a problem to consider it to be a single message. It's not.

[Spiderwire]

That's not true at all. There are several scriptural references to Jesus calling himself God. By the way, every hear of the name Emmanuel?

It's such a long time ago I read the Bible, so I don't remember. Do you know which verse?

 

Emmanuel means something like "God with us", if I recall correctly, and doesn't really point to a father-son relationship.

 

This might be a long post. Read it if you like. I'm certainly not claiming to be a Bible scholar, but I can read. The first example I'll use is from John 10: 22-38

 

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

 

There's a lot that can be read into that and discussion of context can be given (which I believe would make the argument stronger), but in this passage, Jesus is clearly saying that he is, indeed, God. In addressing what I have put in bold print, Jesus says that he had already told them he was the Christ - the chosen one, the anointed king, their spiritual leader - and then went on to up the ante even more when he claimed that he and God were "one". The Jews pick up on the significance of what he's saying immediately and prepare to dish out a good ol' fashioned Hasidic ass whoopin'. In attempting to defend himself, he only makes matters worse by saying God is in him (not that bad) and that he is in God (now they're really pissed). One can dance around the issue quite a bit, but it's very clear what Jesus is implying and what he's actually saying (according to scripture, that is).

 

In John 14:6,7 (right after the foot washing thing where Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and, boys, you're right on the money because I AM."), Jesus is telling the fellows to trust in him just like they trust in God himself. The scripture: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

 

Jesus is speaking plainly (not in parables) when he says that he is the way to God, the truth of God, and in him lies the power of eternal life. He's being very plain when he states that in order to get to God himself, they gotta go through him first and he hammers the point of being God home even further when he tells them that if they know him, they know God. In his usual one upmanship, he tells them because they've been hanging out with him, they actually know God and have seen him because... well, he's standing right there!

 

The next two examples are of Jesus accepting being addressed as God and accepting worship (certainly only reserved for God). There are many examples of him being called "Lord", but I'm not going to touch those because of the implications for and against that word as being official deity. In John 20: 26-29, the scriptures read: A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." In this example, Jesus didn't say, "I'M GOD." But when someone else said it, he didn't object, correct him or say, "Well, thanks, but I'm not the guy." Nope. He accepts the title willingly. In Matthew 14:32, the disciples in the boat worship Jesus. It doesn't mention how they worship him, but it does say they did. It doesn't say Jesus said, "Hold up, fellers, all I did was stop a storm and, aw shucks, get up off your knees." He accepted the worship.

 

Emmanuel does, indeed, mean "God With Us"... as in Jesus is God and he's with us.

 

I think these are clear examples of Jesus, himself, saying he's God or strongly encouraging someone's belief that he thought he was. Someone with a lot more knowledge or experience with the Bible could probably shred me and make me look stupid, but in my experience with Christianity, it was preached and taught with great emphasis that Jesus was 100% God incarnate.

[Ouroboros]

I still don't think "Emmanuel" is a word the defines Jesus as God, since Immanuel was a declared in the old testament for the nation of Israel.

 

However, I agree that those verses in John makes Jesus declare himself as God. It was a while ago I read the Bible, and I'm not making any effort to remember it. I consider it mostly bullshit (like Paul would have said if he lived today).

 

One thing I wonder about is when did the concept of God as a Father start? Did it exist in the Jewish tradition before the Gospels? I don't remember of that concept was very clear in the OT.

 

In which of the Gospels does Jesus refuse to be praised? Doesn't he rebuke the disciples for praising him or even calling him good?

 

If we look at the Gospels, like Antlerman suggest, as a progression of developing ideas, then Jesus wasn't considered God in the early beliefs. Gospel of John, which was written last of the four, does have a more of mystical/gnostic/divine touch to it--something the first Gospels don't have.