Any Ill Will Toward Christians?

[Deva]

The Orthodox Chruch is Tradition with a capital "T". Like the Roman Catholic Church, just do what the priest says, what the church says, and you will be fine. You will go to heaven.

 

Forget that its just a bunch of man-made rules and stuff.

 

 

Again, we never say we will go to heaven.

 

 

OK, omit my sentence about heaven. Isn't it a fact that the rest of it is still true? If not, why are you in the Chruch?

[Vigile]

The smart road is a process of sifting through various outrageous claims and exposing them to critical thinking skills. You OTH are determining what you believe based on a broad range of assumptions about what is true.

 

If if your decisions lead you to Christianity?

 

If after weighing the evidence, weeding out logical fallacies, you find that Christianity withstands the scrutiny, then yes, why not.

 

I have not seen you weighing the evidence though, just appealing to broad assumptions that are not based in fact.

 

I started out with those same assumptions. When put to the test they didn't stand. Others are here for the same basic reasons.

[Drifter]

The Orthodox Chruch is Tradition with a capital "T". Like the Roman Catholic Church, just do what the priest says, what the church says, and you will be fine. You will go to heaven.

 

Forget that its just a bunch of man-made rules and stuff.

 

 

Again, we never say we will go to heaven.

 

 

OK, omit my sentence about heaven. Isn't it a fact that the rest of it is still true? If not, why are you in the Chruch?

 

 

Pretty much. Although "thinking" is my reason for converting to Orthodoxy. And, I'm sure, "thinking" is their reason for remaining Orthodox. I mean, take the priest; I doubt he went through seminary, studied with the monks, etc and so forth, without doing some thinking.

[Vigile]

Pretty much. Although "thinking" is my reason for converting to Orthodoxy. And, I'm sure, "thinking" is their reason for remaining Orthodox. I mean, take the priest; I doubt he went through seminary, studied with the monks, etc and so forth, without doing some thinking.

 

Thinking can oftentimes be wrong. You need to be able to articulate the reasons behind your thinking and show why you have drawn the conclussions you have.

 

Making the assumption that someone came to a reasoned decision based on their thinking is not going to hold up against more careful scrutiny.

 

Why am I wrong to reject christian claims? If you can provide a reasoned answer for that then you might have something.

 

Keep in mind we have given you a great deal of reasons why we reject your faith. Why are these reasons wrong?

 

More concisely: Why is Christianity true?

[brick]

I don't hold ill will towards any who, in my view, are unenlightened. That would be like hating a dog for barking. Just plain dumb.

 

I have to admit though, because of my hatred toward organized religeon, if someone I know begins to preach (followed by a verbal lashing from me) I find my opinion of them goes down for that reason. I find it hard to respect stupidity.

 

Not that I think I am smarter than any and all theists, I just think they've been suckered into swallowing a lot of stupidity.

 

 

So, you believe the only smart road is atheism.

 

 

I never said anything about 'belief', that is your kinds' word. I don't use it. BTW, I promote honest spiritual pursuit, including atheism but not excluding other ideas. How very small-minded of you to assume I am only capable of promoting my own ideaology as the only road.

 

Typical christian dick.

[Drifter]

I don't hold ill will towards any who, in my view, are unenlightened. That would be like hating a dog for barking. Just plain dumb.

 

I have to admit though, because of my hatred toward organized religeon, if someone I know begins to preach (followed by a verbal lashing from me) I find my opinion of them goes down for that reason. I find it hard to respect stupidity.

 

Not that I think I am smarter than any and all theists, I just think they've been suckered into swallowing a lot of stupidity.

 

 

So, you believe the only smart road is atheism.

 

 

I never said anything about 'belief', that is your kinds' word. I don't use it. BTW, I promote honest spiritual pursuit, including atheism but not excluding other ideas. How very small-minded of you to assume I am only capable of promoting my own ideaology as the only road.

 

Typical christian dick.

 

 

Dude, you just said it. "I just think they have been suckered into believing alot of stupidity". Now you're trying to backtrack.

[chefranden]

I started out with those same assumptions. When put to the test they didn't stand. Others are here for the same basic reasons.

 

Ya, but it took me a heck of a long time to get around to testing them. Poor Drifter may be as dumb as me. He needs the school of hard knocks and it takes at least 10 years to get a degree from that school.

[florduh]

"So, you believe the only smart road is atheism".

 

Personally, I think the only smart road is to think, evaluate, and weigh actual evidence before deciding.

 

Again I ask, how do you decide on whose version of things is correct? Tradition is just a way of doing and thinking that was made up at some point in time and has been around for a while, and the Bible is not only at odds with science and history, but conflicts abound within its own pages. There is ZERO evidence that either source is more reliable for explaining the nature of the universe than is the Koran, or the myriad pages of Eastern philosophy and religion. Or "Lord of the Rings" for that matter.

 

So why do you believe what certain people say is fact and not what others assert. Why I believe the Bible god doesn't exist is enumerated in hundreds of examples and arguments in this very website. Support your assertions with some evidence other than, "it's in the Bible" or "it's tradition."

[Guest lenbitme]

I go back and forth, to be brutally honest. Sometimes I despise their inability to think rationally and realistically, but then other times I simply cannot blame them. Had I not been who I am and been exposed to what I was exposed to, I would not have changed. I would have been just like every other christian drone, and I know what that's like. So, I can't knock them, but I can't stand their ideas. I honestly feel they're keeping us in the dark ages. Never the less, the people themselves I mostly feel sorry for, rather than dislike them. Most of them will never get a clue and will waste what we know may very well be their one and only life caught up in a cult.

[Vigile]

I started out with those same assumptions. When put to the test they didn't stand. Others are here for the same basic reasons.

 

Ya, but it took me a heck of a long time to get around to testing them. Poor Drifter may be as dumb as me. He needs the school of hard knocks and it takes at least 10 years to get a degree from that school.

 

I agree Chef. Some of us are just more stubborn and slow to learn. It took me I don't know how many years of questioning before I finally shed the belief.

 

My cousin, OTH, who I discussed this with the other day, was raised almost exactly like me, yet she rejected it from day one. Smart gal she.

[Neon Genesis]

God did not create hell. While hell may be a place {as the righteous and the unrighteous will no coexist in the same place, although all will go into communion with God after death}, it was not created by Him. Hell came into existence when we sinned. God doesn't say "believe this or go to hell". God loves everyone, even those who do not believe in Him.

The bible says god created evil in Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

If god created evil, then god created hell, too. And now you're contradicting yourself/ You say that god doesn't tell us to believe this or to go to hell but earlier you said god is the judge and will take into account all of man's actions and amount of faith. If god doesn't say "believe this or go to hell", then why is god judging the amount of faith we have?

 

His Love is not literal fire. It's emotional, or perhaps spirtual. It hurts like fire, because we will know that we have sinned against divine love; love in its essence. As St. Isaac of Syria said, there is no greater pain that that. God does not torment us. We will go into the presence of God when we die, prepared or not, and God will just be Himself. It is us who will be tormented by His presence, because we will not enjoy doing the things that He does.

Are you saying god enjoys the fact that we will be in hell and are you saying that you will enjoy that fact, too? If you go to heaven but someone you care about goes to hell, will you still be happy in heaven knowing that a person you care about is in hell? How can such a heaven ever be a place of happiness and love? Would you be happy if any of us here went to hell? If you wouldn't, why do you worship a god like that? If you would be happy anyway, then why do you think it's moral to be happy at the expense of somebody else's misery? Why do you have to believe in hell? Do you believe in hell only because you want to see punishment? Didn't Jesus say to love your enemies and forgive those who persecute you? Isn't hell a contradiction to these teachings of Jesus?

 

And we will live eternally in the presence of God's love, which is hated, rejected and despised. It's nothing God does to us, it's our lack of preperation to enter into the full presence of God. Now some people, who do not prepare, may still enter into heaven. Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless. I believe the ignorant will go to heaven because God will have Mercy on those who have never heard of the gospel; save them from their hell, so to speak. Their own hell that they have created for themselves, because of their sins.

Why is disbelief a sin? How is disbelieving in a god that there is no evidence for hurting others at all? How is something that does not cause harm to anyone else deserving of any sort of punishment? God is supposedly all-knowing and knows everything before it happens, so god knows what our eternal fate will be before we are ever born. If god knows who will end up in hell, why bother creating the people who will end up in hell when he already knows who will? Nobody asked to be created. Your god supposedly created us out of his own free will. If god wants us to love it so badly but knew ahead of time that we would go to hell, then it shouldn't have bothered to create us. Don't you think it's cruel and unjust for god to create a being that it knows ahead of time will be punished for disbelieving in it when god is the one responsible for not providing compelling evidence for its creation to believe in it? You say that god will forgive the ignorant and earlier in the thread, you said that god may even forgive those who have heard its teachings but rejected it. If that's the case, how does god decide who is "ignorant" and who isn't? On what basis is god deciding who should be forgiven for disbelieving and who should not be? You still have not explained why should anyone be punished for something as small as disbelieving in god. If your god wants me to believe in it so badly, god can prove itself to me anytime it wants. God hasn't done that yet, so I can only assume that either it doesn't exist or that god doesn't care if we worship it or not.

[bush country]

By the way; this goes to anyone: If I get too "preachy" or come off as such, tell me. In the meantime, I'm enjoying talking about religion.

 

I won't say you are getting preachy but all you have done for your time on here is give Standard Christian Answers - Orthodox Church Version^TM. You are talking about religion but you ain't discussing a damn thing and it has gone on for eleven pages. Quoting scripture has zero credibility here and quoting bullshit that "saints" wrote even less than that. IMO you are as fundy as any fundy but possibly have just enough manners to not come out and tell us we are all going to hell. Clearly the bible says that we are but you want to hide behind the OCA not being a bible only church. Think about it - if a church teaching goes against scripture, then the church teaching is wrong.

 

Well, it's all made up anyway so it's not like it matters.

 

It seems that you have decided to research religion and go with what you perceive to be the oldest version of xianity but you are failing to do a step that should come before that....see if there is any real basis for accepting it in the first place. What I would suggest you do is:

 

Go to the Jews for Judaism and read their reasons for rejecting the Jesus myth.

Read The Bible Unearthed

Read The Jesus Mysteries

Read Lost Christianities

Read the entire what you call The Holy Bible in two or three different translations (NIV, NASB, RSV, KJV) in addition to what your church uses.

Do a little research so you can understand that what you think of as original christianity is about three hundred years after the fact. Look into first century christianity, preferably from a variety of secular sources.

 

I realize you are only 21 years old, but do what I did about a year and a half ago....step out of the box of your "faith" and take a look at it and see if there is any credibility in the story. Once I did that, after over 40 years in the box, I realized it was all just a man-made bullshit myth. No reality in it.

 

As for me:

Male, 50, married.

Christian for over forty years, from age 8 until about four days before my 49th birthday.

Two adult children from first marriage.

Education: BS, Agricultural Engineering, Mississippi State University.

Currently working on my MS in Geology, University of Texas Permian Basin

Work: 26 years in oilfield service industry- pressure pumping

Lived: Venezuela, MS, TX, NM, AL

Foreign countries either visited or worked in: Scotland, England, Uganda, Brasil, South Louisiana

Hobbies: old cars, running - 7 marathons so far, and beer!

[chefranden]

Tradition = Once there was a reason for it, but now we don't know the reason. Therefore we just do it.

 

Once upon a time a mother and daughter who were working together

in the kitchen preparing the Easter dinner.

 

They always worked together to make their special traditional family Easter meal. No matter what the mother was doing, it seemed that the daughter was always watching her intently. The mother could even feel her daughters big brown eyes on her without even turning to see if she was in the room. Yet she continued with her task of preparing the meal without even missing a beat or a blink.

 

As she did every year the mother took the pan out of the cupboard and set it on the counter. Then she went to the fridge and removed the ham that had been defrosting. They had a large ham this year. It was not unusually large or different then last year's ham.

 

She took the wrapping off and then proceeded to cut about an inch off of either end of the ham.

 

Before the mother even put the ham in the pan the daughter stopped her and said:

 

"Mom why did you cut the ends off the ham?".

 

The mother stopped in her tracks and pondered the question. She was rather perplexed since no one had ever asked her why she cut the ham that way before. She had done it that way as long as she could remember.

 

The mother answered her daughter and said: "Well sweetie, I really don't know the answer to your question. Your Grandma always cut the ends off of her ham and I have just naturally done the same thing. I never ever wondered why I did that though. So let's call Grandma and ask her why she cuts the ham that way."

 

So they grabbed the phone and called Grandma. Then the mother asked her mother if she knew why she cut the ends of the ham off before placing it in the pan.

 

The Grandmother stopped and became rather quiet. She hadn't thought about her ritual of cutting the ham being anything different then normal. Then it occurred to her that her own mother had done the very same thing for as long as she remembered. The Grandmother suggested that the daughter call her mother and ask her that very question.

 

So she hung up the phone and dialed the little girl's great-grandmother. After the usual pleasantries she asked her why she cut the ends of the ham off before cooking it. She replied without hesitation and with a smile in her voice along with a little chuckle...... The reason that she cut the ends off of the ham was because back in the early days of their marriage she didn't have a pan big enough to hold the ham. They couldn't afford to buy a bigger pan either. So that was the only way to make the ham fit in the pan.

[hereticzero]

The Orthodox believe that even after death, it is possible for an unbeliever to be Saved.

Please, could you provide a Biblical basis for that statement?

 

 

I thought I mentioned that this Church isn't a "Bible Only" Church. Everything that is believed doesn't necessarily have be in the Bible.

More proof the church made shit up.

 

 

Actually no; that would be the fault of the Protestants. 'Sola Scriptura' was not taught before A.D 1517

Ah Jesus, not another manual!

And Latin writings mean they are true to, right?

[hereticzero]

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

 

It's fruits*. Which is what you Lord tells you to judge by.

 

 

Yes, some people in the Christian faith can be evil. That does not mean all of Christianity is.

Christianity is evil because it encourages people to lay down their lives for a fantasy while believing they will receive special rewards in heaven, martyrs for the faith. Christianity is evil because it encourages law makers to pass laws that deny personal freedoms to those who don't believe in order to protect the beliefs of the religious. Christianity is wicked and deceitful. That makes it evil.

[mwc]

we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."

I got sidetracked with my earlier post but now I remember what I wanted to say about this. Don't forget Justin's reasoning behind this. It's the evil "demons" that knew about his "jesus" that tricked the Greeks (and others) into writing their doctrines so that when the real deal showed up people would then be able to make these very claims. That "jesus" is the copy and not the original that was pre-copied. Pretty sneaky.

 

mwc

[jackbauer]

I see. Well, could you give my some examples? What is it that you can do when you're not a Christian, that you can't do when you're a Christian?

 

You're thinking about it the wrong way. Obviously there are some things that many people won't do as a christian that they might do otherwise. Premarital sex, for instance (lots of Christians do this anyway, it's people like me who take everything seriously that actually didn't), I stopped listening to almost all secular music. However, this isn't really the problem, its not about what you do or don't do, its about the basic attitudes towards life that Christianity fosters.

 

Christianity teaches people to be very pessimistic, to hate themselves, to to dislike the world around them. Christians do all the same basic things that non-believers do, they get up, they go to work or school, they come home. However, it seems to me, as a Christian the entire experience is tainted. If things go badly its ones own fault because we didn't "trust god enough" or "pray enough" but if things go well, god gets all the credit instead, "praise god my surgery went well" Yeah, don't thank the doctor its not like he went to years of school and training to do the surgery.

 

Life here can no longer be enjoyed just for the sake of itself, it is always overshadowed and eclipsed by "the next life." The choices one makes here are based upon how one thinks it will effect their next life, rather than living in the simple enjoyment of the moment.

 

Of course you may not have experienced this at all, but Jeff is right, you are still pretty young, you haven't seen the dark side of religious belief like I have (if you're lucky you never will), when I was 21 I was still "on fire for Jesus," Which is not to say that all older people are wiser, some refuse to learn from experience, and are just old. But when I was 21 I thought I had the world all figured out, 9 years later I am just realizing how much I don't know.

 

 

Ah, About me:

 

30 years old,

B.A. in religious studies from Hendrix College

Hobbies: Guitar, Anime, Video games, Philosophy, reading

Not married, no kids

Currently living in Japan, teaching English at a high school in Kawagoe

 

Quoted for truth!

 

Maybe I was just never that religious and never 'experienced god', but now that I actually have KNOWLAGE about what the Christians believe, I feel perfectly justified in questioning or critiquing it. I cannot base my life on a HUGE claims that have such little support. Christianity demands that one puts their faith in a god and afterlife even though god hasn't revealed themself to several people. Perhaps there is a creator, but to me, there's a difference between believing there's a creator, and 'knowing' the mind of the creator.

[brick]

I don't hold ill will towards any who, in my view, are unenlightened. That would be like hating a dog for barking. Just plain dumb.

 

I have to admit though, because of my hatred toward organized religeon, if someone I know begins to preach (followed by a verbal lashing from me) I find my opinion of them goes down for that reason. I find it hard to respect stupidity.

 

Not that I think I am smarter than any and all theists, I just think they've been suckered into swallowing a lot of stupidity.

 

 

So, you believe the only smart road is atheism.

 

 

I never said anything about 'belief', that is your kinds' word. I don't use it. BTW, I promote honest spiritual pursuit, including atheism but not excluding other ideas. How very small-minded of you to assume I am only capable of promoting my own ideaology as the only road.

 

Typical christian dick.

 

 

Dude, you just said it. "I just think they have been suckered into believing alot of stupidity". Now you're trying to backtrack.

 

 

Oh? Where am I trying to backtrack? What I see is your attempt to discredit and sidetrack me. When did I state that I was against spiritual pursuit?

 

Again, how small-minded of you to assume that free spiritual pursuit will lead a person to an organized religeon or sustain a belief system that was handed down to them since birth.

 

Do you want to expand on your statement above? Who's been suckered into belief? Not me, anything I hold as truth is quantifiable, beyong that I consider things/ideas to be fact in varying degrees, depending on the nature and supportability of them.

 

Your presence here clearly demonstrates that you are looking to discredit or convert despite your easy-going approach.

 

You're nothing new, I've seen your kind before. Until you open your mind, I don't expect anything reasonable to come out of you. Goodbye, get lost.

[Evolution_beyond]

Jesus is the New Adam, so to speak. As, by Adam, death entered the world; so by Jesus, life entered the world. He is the only perfect human. And He is also divine, with all the divine attributes of God.

 

Human beings are finite. God is infinite.

 

So was Jesus finite or infinite? How can the infinite become finite without losing its divinity?

 

Jesus was not divine. Jesus had limited knowledge, limited power. The only way that Jesus could be divine is by being a finite, flawed human being that was full of God's goodness.

 

But that would make him a special human being (an enlightened figure like the Buddha perhaps?) not God in human form. God in human form is impossible. The thing that Christianity preaches (God made flesh) is a logical impossibility unless it refers to God being present in all things (the God within), in which case Jesus is not special but just an example of the best that man can be.