Any Ill Will Toward Christians?

[Drifter]

Firstly, Jesus was 100% Human and 100% God.

 

And now we come to one of the many reasons I can't believe, logical contradictions.

 

Besides aren't you aware that this position is not held by all Christians? Indeed this was one of the major points of argument in the council of nicea. The position you just stated was the proto-orthodox position which was voted on by the council. So if you are thinking of becoming Greek Orthodox why are you touting theology that came from the first Catholic council?

 

If my memory serves me, the Greek Orthodox actually differs slightly from the RCC and protestants on this theological issue.

 

To follow Christianity is to follow its teachings. If you don't believe in all the teachings of Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

 

I'm going to become American Orthodox. And the Council of Nicea is the first Christian Council. This was before the East-West Schism of A.D 1054, so both the Catholics and Orthodox follow it.

 

 

No, they don't differ. There are MANY differences, but this isn't one of them. I can't speak for all Protestants {every church seems to be different}, but every one I went to believes this. And it is in the Catholic teaching, as well.

[Drifter]

Firstly, Jesus was 100% Human and 100% God. When Jesus was speaking with the Father in the Garden, asking Him to let the cup pass, He was speaking as a Human. And, even as a Human, He said "You're will be done". Jesus' divine nature, however, is always of the same mind of the Father. Jesus, who is God, wanted to die for His creation because He loves us.

 

So, let me get this straight, god committing the heinous act of child sacrifice is a-okay as long as the child agrees with it and/or willingly becomes the sacrifice?

 

 

Jesus is God Himself, not just His Son. As human, He is God's Son. As divine, He is the fullness of God. Before time began, the divine Triune made the way of Salvation.

[Legion]

Drifter I sincerely hope that you will talk about yourself too, and not merely about your religion.

 

Let the magnificent mammal within you shine through.

[Drifter]

Firstly, Jesus was 100% Human and 100% God. When Jesus was speaking with the Father in the Garden, asking Him to let the cup pass, He was speaking as a Human. And, even as a Human, He said "You're will be done". Jesus' divine nature, however, is always of the same mind of the Father. Jesus, who is God, wanted to die for His creation because He loves us.

 

How can Jesus be both fully God and Human? You can have parts but never full if you have a two. Absurdity!

 

 

It's a funny argument. Jesus was 100% human but not quite as sinful or imperfect as a human. Jesus was 100% God but not quite as all-knowing as God and still prone to human fears.

 

That's not 100% is it? More like 50% human and 50% God.

 

 

Jesus is the New Adam, so to speak. As, by Adam, death entered the world; so by Jesus, life entered the world. He is the only perfect human. And He is also divine, with all the divine attributes of God.

[Drifter]

Christ defeated spiritual death. Before acceptance of Christ and Baptism, we are dead in our sins. Christ is the Resurrection and the Life; He brings us to life.

 

Can you demonstrate how this spiritual life Christians have is a different kind of life from the way everyone else lives?

 

I say there is no such thing as spiritual death and "spiritual" life - which is what I assume you are referring to. Isn't your religion very complicated? If Christians still sin and still must go to confession how are they "alive to Christ and dead to sin"?

 

 

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

[Drifter]

Then why don't yall ban the Christians that come on here, rather than tell them its alright to debate? That's what the Lion's Den is for; ar at least that's what it says.

 

Because it is thereputic for some ex-christians to debate the preaching in the Lions Den. It took some of us many years to escape from Christianity and there we see over and over the same weak arguments for Christianity.

 

Serious debate takes place in the Arena or Colosseum areas, of which we have not seen very many.

 

What's your point Drifter? Do you expect to come on a site like this and present Christianity with no opposition or be treated with kid gloves?

 

 

If you have seen the place I work at, you wouldn't even ask. I have very thick skin, and have no need to be treated with kid gloves. It's just that when I talk to people around here, they seem to have a preconceived idea of what I'm going to say, or what I believe. Most of the people I've seen post around here are exevangelicals or have a real problem with fundies. I'm neither. Yet, people assume my beliefs or guess my "angle" before I even say anything.

I haven't the time to read all the pages of this thread yet, but will post briefly here as the primary moderator of this forum that the Lion's Den is a place for Christians who come here to talk/debate with the membership here without causing disruptions in the other forums where the primary focus is support for ExChristians. It's not per se meant as an open invitation "Come save us", but a place where it is tolerated, and in the case of those who wish to debate encouraged to do so here, outside the other forums.

 

That said, I did notice you're from the Orthodox Church by your cross symbol. I personally don't pre-judge someone's beliefs and I know yours are different than the typical right-wing Evangelical fare. I always enjoy hearing different perspectives on the subject, and as time permits I'll read through what you have to say and possibly engage in discussion with you.

 

To answer your question, no I don't have any ill will towards Christians; only towards people who act badly towards others.

 

 

Alright man, thanks. And I will be converting to the Church. I'm not a member yet.

[Drifter]

The foot thing is where Jesus's feet were nailed to the cross. It's slanted because, traditionally, there were two thieves crucified next to Jesus. One thief was repentant toward Christ, and the other mocked Him and was unrepentant. The repentant thief went to heaven, and the unrepentant thief went to hell; which is indicated by one side up, and the other down on the foot rest.

And you know this, how? Were you there? I never saw written in the babble this was so. There is only two accounts (Matthew and Mark, and it is accepted as tradition that Mark was written first and that someone copied his story) in the babble of Jesus being nailed between two others. Why are the other books silent about this? Why didn't Paul mention this event in his ramblings? Makes me believe this is another passion story in print that did not happen.

 

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Bible for it to be so. What the cross represents is tradition.

[Robbobrob]

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

You state this like it means something....but it just sounds like other people's words that you don't full comprehend.

 

the use of words like alive and dead and the like gets awfully confusing, especially when not used in their proper, biological meanings. Easy to get lost in the words, and think you are answering questions when you really are not.

[Drifter]

First of all, the Orthodox Church doesn't believe we carry around the guilt of Adam's sin. Because of his Christ did die for our sins. But it wasn't an angry God putting to death His Son. Christ came to conquer. The Cross was a victory, not a defeat. By Christ's death, he deafeted death, the devil, and hell.

 

Also, could you please explain how he defeated the devil and hell?

 

Last I heard, that wily guy was still running around, tempting people and planting naughty thoughts in their heads (and God is letting him, at that), and hell is still there and the vast majority of Earth's inhabitants are going to end up there.

 

I'm not sure what you'd call that, but "defeat" is probably the last term I'd use.

 

 

Satan was bound at the Cross, and is no longer able to keep the gospel from the nations. His fate is sealed. Hell is defeated, because God has made a way for Salvation.

[Drifter]

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

You state this like it means something....but it just sounds like other people's words that you don't full comprehend.

 

the use of words like alive and dead and the like gets awfully confusing, especially when not used in their proper, biological meanings. Easy to get lost in the words, and think you are answering questions when you really are not.

 

 

No, I know what I'm talking about. Repentance and holiness are essential to the Christian Way. We have to turn from our sins and to Christ, to try and live like Him. That's really all it means.

[Spiderwire]

Hey, Squiddy, here's a little suggestion that will prevent me from having any more ill will toward you than I already do.

 

Either gather your thoughts (if that's what you want to call them) and respond to the forum member you're wanting to address in one post

 

or

 

Stop quoting the entire fucking exchange of dialogue and choose the parts you're wanting to respond to.

 

You may be a dynamic Christian, but you're cluttering the fuck out of this thread.

 

On a side note, you appeared to start out pretty cool. I'm amazed (well, not really) at how quickly you reverted to being the standard, run o' the mill, shit for brains, "allow me to clarify the finer points of my religion for you" putz we see stopping by every now and again.

[Drifter]

Drifter I sincerely hope that you will talk about yourself too, and not merely about your religion.

 

Let the magnificent mammal within you shine through.

 

 

I thought we were talking about religion...

[Drifter]

Hey, Squiddy, here's a little suggestion that will prevent me from having any more ill will toward you than I already do.

 

Either gather your thoughts (if that's what you want to call them) and respond to the forum member you're wanting to address in one post

 

or

 

Stop quoting the entire fucking exchange of dialogue and choose the parts you're wanting to respond to.

 

You may be a dynamic Christian, but you're cluttering the fuck out of this thread.

 

On a side note, you appeared to start out pretty cool. I'm amazed (well, not really) at how quickly you reverted to being the standard, run o' the mill, shit for brains, "allow me to clarify the finer points of my religion for you" putz we see stopping by every now and again.

 

 

I'm not trying to explain my religion, really. This whole thing started because I simply wanted to know if anyone here has any ill will toward Christians. When someone says something that Christians don't believe, I explain it.

[Legion]

Drifter I sincerely hope that you will talk about yourself too, and not merely about your religion.

 

Let the magnificent mammal within you shine through.

I thought we were talking about religion...

Man, I am just trying to help you out here. I don't know why exactly. I guess it's because I know that you are genuine human being beneath all this socially constructed religion. All we see of you is a standard bearer of Christianity. But I know that you are more than this. Let us put a human face on you. Please tell us something about you.

 

How old are you?

Are you married?

Do you have children?

How do you make a living?

What is your favorite color?

What did you have for breakfast?

Do you have any hobbies?

What was the last book you read for fun?

 

Please include anything that you think is relevant. This is the Lion's Den. We can talk about anything we want.

[chefranden]

Satan was bound at the Cross, and is no longer able to keep the gospel from the nations. His fate is sealed. Hell is defeated, because God has made a way for Salvation.

 

You're so cute. Go preach the Gospel in Saudi Arabia, or Iran. Fuck, I'd write more but I can't stop laughing.

[Spiderwire]

Okay... you're also a bit slow, I see. We're quite aware of your religion. Please don't think that because you throw around words like "coptic" and "orthodox" that we're a group of folks who went to Sunday school as little kids and then bailed out after VBS was over.

 

No one is asking you any questions. By that I mean to say that no one is seeking any clarification or revelation about the simple, average, and quite standard things you're discussing. We get it. What's happening is that they're challenging you. They're encouraging you to think by calling into question the silly phrases you're kicking around. You're not talking about anything we haven't read, studied, and even taught ourselves in the past.

 

We know full well what you're talking about. It's just that we're serving the shit back to you.

[Robbobrob]

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

You state this like it means something....but it just sounds like other people's words that you don't full comprehend.

 

the use of words like alive and dead and the like gets awfully confusing, especially when not used in their proper, biological meanings. Easy to get lost in the words, and think you are answering questions when you really are not.

 

 

No, I know what I'm talking about. Repentance and holiness are essential to the Christian Way. We have to turn from our sins and to Christ, to try and live like Him. That's really all it means.

You really don't see it, do you? All it really means? None of what you said has any practical application.....if I told someone with no knowledge of Christianity what you have said, they would have no idea how to live.

 

Just pointing out that you are using jargon. Jargon is bad. Jargon gives you non-answers where you think you have answers. Seriously, how can I live like him? He was an unmarried, un-child begger in the Middle East. There is no real practical way for me to be like him. But you, as so many other Christians do, spout jargon in the hopes to make people think you have answers, when you don't.

[Deva]

Christ defeated spiritual death. Before acceptance of Christ and Baptism, we are dead in our sins. Christ is the Resurrection and the Life; He brings us to life.

 

Can you demonstrate how this spiritual life Christians have is a different kind of life from the way everyone else lives?

 

I say there is no such thing as spiritual death and "spiritual" life - which is what I assume you are referring to. Isn't your religion very complicated? If Christians still sin and still must go to confession how are they "alive to Christ and dead to sin"?

 

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

 

I was actually hoping for more of an explanation. We don't "strive for repentance and holiness" but a lot of us here do strive to live good lives. Or do you think that is impossible for a nonbeliever? No, we don't get all wound up over our mistakes or so-called "sins" and have to go to confession so some guy in a robe can make it better for us.

[Vigile]

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

 

Striving is right.

 

Oh god, why do I keep doing the things I know I'm not supposed to do? Please give me strength to overcome that sin. I'm such a worm. You are so graceful to forgive such a vile creature as me. I want to be like you. Please wash me of my filth. Please live through me. I'm disgusting.

 

[par4dcourse]

Hey Driftwood, er, SnowDrift, ah, eh, Drifting Off: As a matter of fact, I do have quite a lot against xians and xianity.

My stolen childhood will never be replaced. How could I think about baseball and birthdays when I may be going to hell?

I'm pissed that I was tormented in school for being "the religious kid." But who needs friends when you've got jebus, eh?

I hate the damn xians for being so smug, so Holier-than-thou, and so full of faith (or something) they ignore fact, reason, and logic. I resent them being in my government, on my money, and in my bedroom.

Most of all I'm angry at myself for ever believing the invisible spook in the sky, talking snake, worldwide flood, virgin birth resurection pile of shit story in the first place.

Oh, yeah, and have a nice day.

[Hineni]

I really don't hold ill will against anyone till they give me good reason. But then, I have a soft spot, and I tend to forgive very easily. Though, my eldest sister, being a member of the Church of Christ, does have ill will towards me and mine due to our unbelief. Seems she doesn't want to mingle with those of us who dance with the devil.

 

Also, we, collectively, have an anormous amount of knowledge regarding christianity. With that, I don't think there is anything you can "explain" about the religion/relationship in which we once believed...and I'd say probably the majority of us, believed most fervently....having it be our very Breath.

 

And Drifter, I have to agree with Legion. You do seem to come off as cardboard-like. .. no offense, intended.

 

Hineni

[hereticzero]

We are dead to sin, because we are now striving for repentance and holiness. Before we came to Christ, we didn't do that.

You state this like it means something....but it just sounds like other people's words that you don't full comprehend.

 

the use of words like alive and dead and the like gets awfully confusing, especially when not used in their proper, biological meanings. Easy to get lost in the words, and think you are answering questions when you really are not.

 

 

No, I know what I'm talking about. Repentance and holiness are essential to the Christian Way. We have to turn from our sins and to Christ, to try and live like Him. That's really all it means.

Christians are not holier than anyone else.

 

There is no sin, Jesus did not die for anyone's sins and god does not give a crap to what happens here on earth or what we do in space.

 

Neither you nor any other Christian with The Real Message® have proven beyond a reasonable doubt, that anything you say is true because the story is not true from the day it was forged until today. If Christians can serve on jury duty, then they can swear that the evidence they present is believable beyond the reason of doubt. It is the same means our glorious state will use to prosecute us for just about any reason whatsoever these days. It is only fair that Christians be also called upon to present this same type of evidence that they will swear to in court when prosecuting someone for possessing marijuana. If they swear that what they are presenting is true beyond a reasonable doubt then I'm willing to hear it. But to swear they are telling the truth, they have to present the evidence that proves they are telling the truth. The holy babble does not leave anything proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I want to see the evidence that shows a little girl was given a magical fruit by a talking snake and then we'll dissect your other fairy tales as we go.

[Vomit Comet]

All the ones I left behind I remember as friends, though I gotta say, moving a few hundred miles away and being gone long enough so that they no longer call helps a lot. And Las Vegas (where I now live) is so anonymous and anomic that whatever fundies I was around when I first got here pretty much forgot I existed shortly after I disappeared from amongst them. So I'd say I've gotten off pretty easy. The only one I'm worried about is my brother, who doesn't know yet, and I am avoiding dropping it on him because of his mental health issues -- it might set him off so far that he doesn't come back this time. So I'm happy to let him think that I'm just kind of a fence-sitter half-assed Christian on a Sin City sojourn that'll come back around eventually.

 

I do resent the hell out of the politicized wing of American fundamentalism. The thought of Sarah Palin being a heartbeat away from the Presidency scares the goddamn living dog-shit out of me.

[hereticzero]

It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Bible for it to be so. What the cross represents is tradition.

This is my biggest argument against Christianity: Why do Christians do what they do? Because they have always done it that way. Because it has always been done that way, then it must be the right way. Why do they do it all? Because someone told them to. No real reason why, one day the king's men on horse back road up to the door and demanded we convert to the new kingdom's religion and because we always did it since then, then we should keep on doing it, and why not keep doing it? Tradition without evidence is no proof at all.

 

Matthew and Mark worn of the teachings of the commandments of men as the commandments of men began by 'traditional' teachings that take over as law when no such commandment was ever given. What traditions do the church now teach as law that have no commandments to back them up? There are thousands of web sites on the internet devoting their entire existences to exposing Christianity for the sham that it is.

[chefranden]

No, I know what I'm talking about. Repentance and holiness are essential to the Christian Way. We have to turn from our sins and to Christ, to try and live like Him. That's really all it means.

 

Seriously, what the hell does this mean?

 

Personally I try to live like George Bush, but I find I can't afford a personal 747. However, I do have some secret documents.

 

How about you do you have a Throne next to God? Do you raise people from the dead? Do you go about the hospitals curing cancer, or telling paraplegics, "take up your bed and walk?" When is the last time you busted up a church meeting for hypocrisy? Do you have 12 disciples? Do you count on the largess of strangers to make a living? Can you make a decent chair? Do you pray to yourself and then not answer your own prayer?(Jn17) Have you spent 40 days in the wilderness without food or drink? Do you talk to Satan? Do you hang out with reprobates and prostitutes? Do you have a place to lay your head, or do you sleep under a bridge? Do you order genocide from time to time? Do you know how many legs a grasshopper has? And last, but certainly not least -- Can you beat an Iron Chariot in a fair fight?