Any Ill Will Toward Christians?

[Drifter]

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

Drifter I don’t believe everything I absorbed from Christianity was horrible. For instance, Proverbs says to seek understanding for she is more precious than gold. And Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you (he wasn’t the only one saying this). Both these things seem like sound advice to me still.

 

I think you could adhere to Christianity all your life man. And if that’s the best thing for you, then I say go for it. But I know that had I remained a Christian I would have gone crazy (or crazier). I was learning too many other things that conflicted with it. I also suspect I would not have been as receptive to other good ideas that I encountered later in life had I remained a Christian.

 

I think Christianity would only be horrible for you if it kept you from reaching your full potential. I suppose the question to ask is… Will it?

 

 

I dont think it will. How has it kept you from reaching your full potential?

[Legion]

How has it kept you from reaching your full potential?

Oh I don't think it has. But then, I left Christianity behind when I was about 17. I was a Christian from the ages of about 7 - 17.

[centauri]

Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless.

 

Well, that pretty much pushes St. Paul out of doctrinal caravan, splattering one of his primary teachings all over the highway.

 

 

Such as?

 

The sin of Adam tainted all of humanity, resulting in death for all humans.

Rom 5:12,19

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

Babies are also not universally sinless because some of them are wicked from conception.

Psa 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

Psa 58:3(NLT)

These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

[Legion]

Drifter I know that you are being bombarded with questions, and so I am reluctant to burden you with another one. But let me ask.

 

Why did you come here?

[mwc]

And we will live eternally in the presence of God's love, which is hated, rejected and despised. It's nothing God does to us, it's our lack of preperation to enter into the full presence of God. Now some people, who do not prepare, may still enter into heaven. Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless. I believe the ignorant will go to heaven because God will have Mercy on those who have never heard of the gospel; save them from their hell, so to speak. Their own hell that they have created for themselves, because of their sins.

So "god," even though he knows that having some in his presence "hurts" them stills forces them to be in his presence? Out of "love?" How is that any type of "love?" Even if that is simply what this "god" is how does that matter? If "god" was acid and the acid burns wouldn't it be best to put those who were being burnt (even though you may have forewarned them, let's say 70x7 times) away from you? Or find a way to shield them from being burned? I know I would. I could simply throw up my hands and say "I tried to tell you" but that attitude solves nothing now does it? "God" should be above that anyhow. Humans are petty so it makes sense we'd be "snotty" to those who did not listen but that fails when applied to this "god." If the "mercy" you speak of can "protect" some then it can then be extended to all. If "justice" demands a punishment then so be it but how long must "god" require torment before he proclaims "Enough" and stops the suffering? The Apocalypse of Peter says it will end. You seem to accept "tradition" (ie. non-biblical sources). Do you accept this is an eternal situation or that it will end?

 

mwc

[Taphophilia]

Drifter,

 

The Adam and Eve story is taken from the Sumerian myth of Enki and Ninhursag. It's much older than the culture that retold it. Just as the story of Noah is taken from Gilgamesh.

 

This is what Vigile has tried to explain to you. The stories that you believe to be from the Bible are from much older bronze age myths that the Hebrews incorporated from the Canaanites and the Canaanites from the Sumerians.

 

I should point out the the myth of Enki and Ninhursag ends on a happy note. It's an amusing tale from very ancient history. While the Bible's version of the story ends in suffering, pain and death.

 

Even the writers of the New Testament incorporated many beliefs of ancient god's and religions into Jesus and Christianity.

 

Justin Martyr in his First Apology:

 

CHAP. XXI.--ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

 

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."

[ghostchild]

On the subject of the Orthodox Church of America... just so you know.

 

The ROCA and some branches of the greek orthodox church hold that the OCA has broken holy cannon, because the OCA is more than willing to accept non-triple immersion baptisms from non-orthodox backgrounds and has actually had a history of punishing priests for rebaptising converts who come from other, non orthodox churches. unlike the ROCA, which the OCA was part of but split off from in the fifties, the OCA has actually held the belief that any baptism by any form of xtian church is valid, though they only practice triple-immersion themselves.

 

the OCA and ROCA mostly ignore each other now, but keep in mind that they used to be one church, and split due to a theological argument. which one is right? they aren't in communion with each other. the ROCA thinks the OCA is heretical. The OCA thinks that the ROCA needs to change to meet the times, and that its ridiculous to expect anyone to convert if you make them get rebaptised. in the sixties, the two groups fought a financial war for control of properties across north america.

 

ultimately, you want to pick the church that holds apostolic succession. of these two, which do you think it is?

 

both churches descend from the people who fled russia after the russian revolution. meanwhile, the actual russian patriarchate thinks both the ROCA and OCA are insignificant, while the ROCA and many members of the OCA fear the moscow patriarchate because the head of the church is an ex-kgb agent and because the Moscow-controlled orthodox have literally and figuritively attacked individuals and groups from both churches in attempts to gain political control over the parishes in north america...

[chefranden]

I suppose I should do this too:

 

58 9/12ths years old

School 2 years of collage for music; 4years for ministry/theology.

Married 35 years 2 kids; 1 and 7/9ths grandchildren

Favorite color blue/green like my sweeties eyes.

Retired Chef/minister/business owner/cook/chicken farmer/soldier/paper boy.

hobby Photography; reading; arguing religion and politics over coffee.

Reading "The Fall of the House of Labor."

[Emme]

Hi, Drifter.

First, to answer your question, no, I don't wish anyone ill, christian or not. Sometimes I get very irritated watching people live in a fantasy world with arbitrary rules, but if it doesn't hurt anyone I'm ok with it. That goes for all religions, political views, opinions. However, if a religious behaviour/attitude/conception of life hurts people, I will react.

For example, if you deny my gay/bi/transgendered friends their rights or judge my sexually liberated entourage, yeah, I'll probably scratch your eyes out (verbally, that is, I'm not a violent person).

In general, though, I try to treat people as people. Prosper and be hanged to you, as the Irishman said.

 

God did not create hell. While hell may be a place {as the righteous and the unrighteous will no coexist in the same place, although all will go into communion with God after death}, it was not created by Him.

 

This does not make sense. God is the creator of everything, according to the bible. He must have created everything, including sin, hate, misery, and hell. Is god not your creator? Is there another creator as powerful as god? What do you think of that?

[Onyx]

I will not argue in this post.

 

Here is my profile.

 

Onyx

19 years old

School: In transition to University.

Favorite colour: Any colour except brown.

Occupation: Student/Volunteer worker

Hobbies: Writing, History, philosophy, languages, coin-collecting, antique books, drawing, painting, clubber, man chasing, swimming, politics, travelling and reading.

Currently Reading: Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco, Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner, To Love this Life: Quotations by Helen Keller and Last Kabbalist of Lisbon by Richard Zimler.

[mwc]

Since Taph started with Justin I thought I'd have some fun with words (so to speak).

 

Here Justin quotes from Isaiah:

"And that expression, “The sword shall devour you,” does not mean that the disobedient shall be slain by the sword, but the sword of God is fire, of which they who choose to do wickedly become the fuel." (Apology I, 44)

We're told that "sword" is not "a sword" but "a fire." And those tossed into said "fire" are the "fuel." Sounds bad.

 

But it's a good thing Justin came along to explain that this sword of "god" was really not a literal sword that he was going to use to strike down those who disobeyed him but a literal fire that he was going to fuel with those same people. The sword thing is just stupid.

 

Now, in this thread we have learned this:

"His Love is not literal fire. It's emotional, or perhaps spirtual. It hurts like fire, because we will know that we have sinned against divine love; love in its essence. As St. Isaac of Syria said, there is no greater pain that that. God does not torment us." (Drifter)

Turns out that "fire" is not "fire" but it's an "emotion or spirit" that "burns" like "fire." It's also relayed that this "fire" is "god's love." Sounds...strange.

 

It's a good thing we now know that the literal fire that Justin speaks about isn't really a literal fire at all but is really "god's love" and it only feels like a "fire" to those who die in some unprepared "sin" state (like an unwanted hug from that creepy relative I guess). So that means "god's love" is like a sword that isn't a sword too. It burns and is all pointy? (I guess it really is like that creepy relative).

 

What we have here is a case of the orthodox simply re-interpreting things to suit their needs. Justin didn't care for the Jewish view (rather the Jews didn't care for the xian nonsense, here he speaks on the LXX in ch31):

"They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man’s estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God."

I can't imagine the Jews not jumping at the chance to hear the xians take on the Jewish religion. Especially when it's so...Jewish.

 

And it doesn't involve redefining words like "sword" into "fire" or "fire" into "love" at all.

 

mwc

[chefranden]

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

 

It's fruits*. Which is what you Lord tells you to judge by.

 

You will perhaps argue that the Church is merely people and does the horrors that people do. However, you can not claim on the one hand that the Church is the dispenser of God's grace and on the other hand that it is no different then any other human organization. It is no different than any other human organization and that is exactly the problem.

 

*Some Orthodox fruits include Ivan the Terrible, and the recent ethnic cleansings in the Balkans which I suppose you are too young to remember.

[hereticzero]

Neon Genesis,

 

No one chooses to go to hell. I understand that. God is the judge. On the Day of Judgement, He will take into account all of man's individual actions, his amount of faith, etc and so forth. I don't know who's going to hell. I could meet a Devil worshipper on the street, and still not know. That is God's Judgement alone.

 

God did not create hell. While hell may be a place {as the righteous and the unrighteous will no coexist in the same place, although all will go into communion with God after death}, it was not created by Him. Hell came into existence when we sinned. God doesn't say "believe this or go to hell". God loves everyone, even those who do not believe in Him.

 

His Love is not literal fire. It's emotional, or perhaps spirtual. It hurts like fire, because we will know that we have sinned against divine love; love in its essence. As St. Isaac of Syria said, there is no greater pain that that. God does not torment us. We will go into the presence of God when we die, prepared or not, and God will just be Himself. It is us who will be tormented by His presence, because we will not enjoy doing the things that He does. And we will live eternally in the presence of God's love, which is hated, rejected and despised. It's nothing God does to us, it's our lack of preperation to enter into the full presence of God. Now some people, who do not prepare, may still enter into heaven. Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless. I believe the ignorant will go to heaven because God will have Mercy on those who have never heard of the gospel; save them from their hell, so to speak. Their own hell that they have created for themselves, because of their sins.

No, this is proof the Christian church made shit up as time went.

[hereticzero]

The Orthodox believe that even after death, it is possible for an unbeliever to be Saved.

Please, could you provide a Biblical basis for that statement?

 

 

I thought I mentioned that this Church isn't a "Bible Only" Church. Everything that is believed doesn't necessarily have be in the Bible.

More proof the church made shit up.

[florduh]

Hence the refusal to answer my questions.

[Deva]

The Orthodox Chruch is Tradition with a capital "T". Like the Roman Catholic Church, just do what the priest says, what the church says, and you will be fine. You will go to heaven.

 

Forget that its just a bunch of man-made rules and stuff.

[Drifter]

The Orthodox Chruch is Tradition with a capital "T". Like the Roman Catholic Church, just do what the priest says, what the church says, and you will be fine. You will go to heaven.

 

Forget that its just a bunch of man-made rules and stuff.

 

 

Again, we never say we will go to heaven.

[Drifter]

The Orthodox believe that even after death, it is possible for an unbeliever to be Saved.

Please, could you provide a Biblical basis for that statement?

 

 

I thought I mentioned that this Church isn't a "Bible Only" Church. Everything that is believed doesn't necessarily have be in the Bible.

More proof the church made shit up.

 

 

Actually no; that would be the fault of the Protestants. 'Sola Scriptura' was not taught before A.D 1517

[Drifter]

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

 

It's fruits*. Which is what you Lord tells you to judge by.

 

 

Yes, some people in the Christian faith can be evil. That does not mean all of Christianity is.

[Vigile]

Yes, some people in the Christian faith can be evil. That does not mean all of Christianity is.

 

Christianity teaches that man is evil. Biblegod ordered and presided over genocidal events. Christianity has been used throughout the ages to justify the most heinious of crimes against humanity. Christianity has impeded science. Christianity dwells strongest where ignorance reigns supreme.

 

As Chef points out, you can judge the religion based on its fruits. Its rotten fruit is born out of its rotten teachings. So to answer your question, yes.

[brick]

I don't hold ill will towards any who, in my view, are unenlightened. That would be like hating a dog for barking. Just plain dumb.

 

I have to admit though, because of my hatred toward organized religeon, if someone I know begins to preach (followed by a verbal lashing from me) I find my opinion of them goes down for that reason. I find it hard to respect stupidity.

 

Not that I think I am smarter than any and all theists, I just think they've been suckered into swallowing a lot of stupidity.

[chefranden]

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

 

It's fruits*. Which is what you Lord tells you to judge by.

 

 

Yes, some people in the Christian faith can be evil. That does not mean all of Christianity is.

 

Please don't be a ding bat. The point is there is nothing special about Christianity. It does nothing special, except give people a divine reason for killing and oppressing others. If this all loving God you claim were in it, this wouldn't happen. Yes the Church does a few good things, so does Lions International. But Lions International, can't give sanction to genocide like the Church has, can, and does. The Church can give sanction to genocide because it's imaginary leader is genocidal.

 

1sam15:1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the

LORD

Jesus sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the

LORD

Jesus. 2 This is what the

LORD

Jesus Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

 

This ability to sanction genocide and oppression is what is so bad about Christianity. However, to be fair it is what is so bad about any religion.

[Drifter]

I don't hold ill will towards any who, in my view, are unenlightened. That would be like hating a dog for barking. Just plain dumb.

 

I have to admit though, because of my hatred toward organized religeon, if someone I know begins to preach (followed by a verbal lashing from me) I find my opinion of them goes down for that reason. I find it hard to respect stupidity.

 

Not that I think I am smarter than any and all theists, I just think they've been suckered into swallowing a lot of stupidity.

 

 

So, you believe the only smart road is atheism.

[Vigile]

The smart road is a process of sifting through various outrageous claims and exposing them to critical thinking skills. You OTH are determining what you believe based on a broad range of assumptions about what is true.

[Drifter]

The smart road is a process of sifting through various outrageous claims and exposing them to critical thinking skills. You OTH are determining what you believe based on a broad range of assumptions about what is true.

 

If if your decisions lead you to Christianity?