Any Ill Will Toward Christians?

[florduh]

It is interesting to me how so many people will believe, and even live by, the outrageous things other people think up. How does one decide that this one is right and that one is wrong, when none have any evidence at all of their extraordinary claims?

[Vigile]

It is interesting to me how so many people will believe, and even live by, the outrageous things other people think up. How does one decide that this one is right and that one is wrong, when none have any evidence at all of their extraordinary claims?

 

They haven't learned to stop thinking with their guts.

 

Casinos are full of these rubes who willfully hand over their hard earned cash to those more intelligent.

[Brother Jeff]

This life is preparation for the afterlife. If we have faith and do good works, we may be Saved. For those that don't follow God, they may not be. It's like the Sun. If someone puts on sunscreen, they don't get burnt and they may get a nice tan. If someone doesnt put on any sunscreen, they'll get burnt. Is the Sun doing anything wrong? No. Neither is God. Faith and works in this life is our putting on of the "sunscreen".

I've been reading this thread with some interest, and I think it's time I joined the discussion.

 

Drifter, I was converted to Christianity - Baptist and then the Charismatic Movement - in 1985 when I was 19 years old. I had my doubts over the years, but the fact that religion is just a bunch of mythological nonsense really hit home in early 2000 after I did a lot of research from the skeptical side on the Net. I now regret having devoted 15 years of my life to a demonstrably false religion, and I regret losing some of the best years of my life - my youth - to religion. When I should have been enjoying being young and when I should have been building a real life, I was instead totally wrapped up in religion. I used it to escape real life, and I'm paying for it now. I hate to see young people caught up in religion, because I know what it did to me. I hope you come to the realization that religion - Orthodox or Protestant or Catholic or whatever - is nothing but ancient mythology with no basis in reality - at a much younger age than I did. You'll be better off for it. Don't walk away from religion - RUN FROM IT!

 

This life is the only one you will ever have. There is no evidence that there is an afterlife of any kind, and scientific and medical evidence points strongly to the apparent fact that there isn't one. So, spending this life preparing for some magical afterlife that you will almost certainly never have equates to a wasted life. You should enjoy THIS life. Life is for the living, and it is to be cherished and enjoyed to the fullest extent possible.

[Legion]

Drifter thanks for answering those questions man.

 

Me?

 

I am 36. And man let me tell you. It sneaks up on you. At 21 I was in college. Next thing I knew I was 36.

I am also single, and I haven’t decided if I ever want to get married either.

I don’t have any children.

Currently I’m a plumber, and have been for five years. Most all of my jobs since I was 15 have been in construction. But I do want to go back to school and finish my degree in mathematics and perhaps double major in biology.

My favorite color is purple. And if I were a black man, I would wear purple all the time.

I didn’t have breakfast either.

I guess my main hobby is theoretical biology.

I read a lot too. The last book I read for fun was The Stainless Steel Rat.

 

I don’t know why you came here Drifter. I think it’s absurd that you speak with such certainty about this religious stuff. The only thing I seem to be certain of is how little we can be certain of. But you are young, and I am glad for it. There is hope for you yet I think.

[chefranden]

This life is preparation for the afterlife. If we have faith and do good works, we may be Saved. For those that don't follow God, they may not be. It's like the Sun. If someone puts on sunscreen, they don't get burnt and they may get a nice tan. If someone doesnt put on any sunscreen, they'll get burnt. Is the Sun doing anything wrong? No. Neither is God. Faith and works in this life is our putting on of the "sunscreen".

 

What is it about the next life that needs preparation?

 

I'm an old combat soldier. Training is an attempt to prepare you for battle. They make you miserable and scared for several months so that you will be prepared for being miserable and scared and yet able to function after a fashion.

 

Considering the hell of this life that I've witnessed, heaven must be one fucked up place. Or perhaps you mean that this life is a preparation for hell. If this is so what you say makes some sense to this old man.

 

If you mean preparation for heaven, then this is just unexamined nonsense. No preparation is needed for a perfect place for a perfect life in which nothing goes wrong because it can't go wrong.

 

However, if you are correct then a baby that dies can't go to heaven, because it certainly can't have had sufficient preparation. But if it can go to heaven then no preparation is needed. Therefore your assertion is nonsense. Do you ever take these assertions to their logical ends to see if they are absurd or not?

 

To use your analogy, one puts on suntan lotion because the sun is dangerous. Is heaven dangerous? Perhaps heaven and hell are the same place? It's just that some have lotion on and others don't?

 

Here again you have to have a care, because most sunscreens are useless or dangerous. Orthodoxy may be the wrong sonscreen(sic).

[ghostchild]

ghostchild,

 

The Church is the 'Ark of Salvation'. Going to church, taking part in the Eucharist {etc}, is how we "work out our own Salvation". Salvation is hard work. It is acheived by faith and works {above all, the Mercy and Grace of God}. I didn't say that simply by living a good life you'll go to heaven. I said it's up to God. I don't know. No one but Him knows.

 

 

So, just so i understand you properly, you believe that you don't really know (or care) about the rest of the world, but the orthodox faith is the method, handed to you by god, of working your way into heaven. the rulebook, so to speak.

 

Let me ask you this: do you believe it's the best way? do you think that it is the way god wants everyone to follow to get into heaven? or do you believe that it is just one path among many, all of which are equally valid?

 

I ask this not because i don't know, but because i know that orthodox christianity ("true" christianity is what the name even means) has always made the claim that they are *right* and nobody else is right, or at least nobody else has the "fullness of the faith," and i want to make it clear to you and to everyone else that in this church, despite claiming to not be judgmental and to not know whether other people can make it into heaven, the orthodox faith is all about being *the* way into heaven. the best, the most likely to succeed, and that non-orthodox people have comparatively little chance of making it.

 

This is an important point to make, because orthodoxy sells itself as being different from all those others. "we don't tell people not to think" "we have apostolic succession" "we don't judge non-orthodox people"... most churches say all or many of the same things as orthodoxy. the catholics do, the anglicans do, the coptics in ethiopia do as well. there are minor differences in theology between these faiths, but if you look closely, they're pretty minor. for the coptics and the catholics, the history there is incredibly similar, and just as ancient.

 

In actual fact, the orthodox faith is like any of the non-biblical branches of xtianity. a group of people with old books claiming to know the "best" way into heaven is no different than a group of people with ONE book claiming to know the same thing. why are you planning to join orthodoxy, drifter? 'cuz it's the oldest? two other existing churches can make that exact claim. and look at it from another angle: there are dozens of splinter orthodox churches, all of which claim to be the true one, and they all have some differences in practice from each other. most of them hate the OCA, the Orthodox Church of America, because of its recent modernisation and the changes the OCA has made to the rules surrounding baptism. some groups, like the ROCA, (russian orthodox church abroad) think the OCA is completely heretical and has no apostolic succession at all.

 

there is no consensus on history or apostolic succession or truth. do you really believe that this church is the one that is *right*? why? what makes them different from the rest of orthodoxy? what makes them truly different from catholicism or the coptics? please let us know your thoughts.

[Deva]

DevaLight,

 

1. No, it's saying every church may have some truth, but the Orthodox have the "fullness" of the truth.

 

So what do you think that means, the word "fullness"?

 

2. Yes, the Catholics do believe that, although I think with some differences. If it's the actaul Body and Blood of Christ, it's bound to be powerful.

 

I doubt the differences are very much, if any. I recommend you study up on Roman Catholicism. They believe its the actual Body and Blood too.

 

3. It's not Purgatory. It's just the fact that all things are possible with God. Some people may be ignorant or have never heard of the gospel when they die. Then again, with unbelievers, God may take our prayers for a certain period of their life, and apply it to that time, even after their dead. Nothing at all is impossible for God

.

 

Its interesting that you cannot supply a quote from either scripture or one of the Chruch Fathers to back up this idea. There may be one, but I don't know. You just make statements as if its the self-evident truth, which it is not.

 

4. I assure you, the Orthodox Church is not against thinking. And by the way, they don't believe in 'eternal security'.

 

You may think so now, but you may find out differently later. The hard way.

 

We need the Church because God's grace flows from it. God's grace is in the Church, but nor confined in it.

 

I assume you mean "God's grace is in the Church, but not confined to it." If so, again I say, why bother with the Chruch? You just brush this aside, and are now just making statements again.

 

6. Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. Simple answer; I would leave it. Which is one of the reasons I'm leaving Protestant evangelicalism for Orthodoxy.

 

And one of the reasons I left Christianity all together.

[Drifter]

Brother Jeff,

 

So, you think Christianity doesn't let you enjoy life to the fullness? I haven't experienced this.

 

 

chefranden,

 

Heaven and Hell are the same place, in the sense that we all go into communion with God when we die, prepared or not.

 

Babies can go to heaven because they are sinless. The preparation, which is work and faith, is shedding the passions on earth, before we enter into the presence of God.

 

ghostchild,

 

Good questions. I want to join Orthodoxy because I believe it is the ancient Church of the Apostles. granted, I have some studying to do on such churches as Roman Catholicism before I make that decision.

 

 

From my experience, they don't even touch on who will make it or who will not. They leave it completely up to God, as it should be. We need to worry about our own sins, rather than making judgments about the souls of other people.

 

 

The Orthodox Church IS the Biblical Church. It just doesn't believe in 'Sola Scriptura'.

 

I haven't heard of this. How did OCA change the teachings about Baptism? They believe in the Triple emersion; they hold the belief that Baptism unites us to Christ, washes away our sins, and that Christmation fills us with the Holy Spirit, as all Orthodox do.

 

 

DevaLight,

 

Fullness means... Fullness. They have the correct worship and the correct teaching. Some churches may have some truth, but not all of it. Granted, even the Orthodox claim there are some things we just can't know.

 

I know the Catholics believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I think East and Weat have different views on how it's done though.

 

There is a Scripture to back this up. All things are Possible with God, as Jesus said.

 

You know...having faith does not cancel out the thinking process.

 

Becuase, as the Church is the 'Ark of Salvation', it is the Way to Salvation. This is not to say other nonOrthodox people will go to hell. How could anyone know?

[Drifter]

Drifter thanks for answering those questions man.

 

Me?

 

I am 36. And man let me tell you. It sneaks up on you. At 21 I was in college. Next thing I knew I was 36.

I am also single, and I haven’t decided if I ever want to get married either.

I don’t have any children.

Currently I’m a plumber, and have been for five years. Most all of my jobs since I was 15 have been in construction. But I do want to go back to school and finish my degree in mathematics and perhaps double major in biology.

My favorite color is purple. And if I were a black man, I would wear purple all the time.

I didn’t have breakfast either.

I guess my main hobby is theoretical biology.

I read a lot too. The last book I read for fun was The Stainless Steel Rat.

 

I don’t know why you came here Drifter. I think it’s absurd that you speak with such certainty about this religious stuff. The only thing I seem to be certain of is how little we can be certain of. But you are young, and I am glad for it. There is hope for you yet I think.

 

 

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

[Neon Genesis]

Could christianity exist without the concept of hell? What's the point of having a saviour if there's nothing to be saved from? The Jesus myth had to have him be more than a nice guy who talked about the Golden Rule, giving to the poor, etc. because these ideas were around for centuries before he supposedly lived. So, to scare up membership (literally), the founders of christinsanity had to invent a mythical godman to save people from a horrendous fate and their scary stories could not be falsified because that fate was not supposed to occur until after death. What a scam!

The way I see the bible is that Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21 that the kingdom of God is within us, not in some alternate dimension we can only get to if we follow the bible correctly and believe in god. In Mark 12:29-34, Jesus says that loving your neighbor as yourself is greater than all the rituals and traditions and those that love their neighbor are closer to the kingdom of god. If we don't have love for others and only live our lives filled with hatred and go around hurting others, then we end up creating our own "hell" on Earth, so to speak. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, then all the most important values should logically follow and we can create the kingdom of god within us, thus by following Jesus' teachings of loving your neighbor, we end up saving ourselves from our own "hell." At least that's the way I look at the bible and it makes more sense to me that way. Yes, Christianity has used the doctrine of hell to brainwash it followers throughout history, but just because it's used something evil before doesn't mean they still have to use it. Christians used to believe in slavery and even used the bible to justify it, but now the majority of Christians agree that slavery is immoral, yet Christianity is still surviving. Hell is pretty much a form of spiritual slavery, so if Christianity can survive without physical slavery, I don't think it's impossible for them to survive without spiritual slavery, too. They might have less denominations and not as much of an impact on politics, but that's a good thing, I think.

 

Neon Genesis,

 

God doesn't "send" people to hell. In fact, hell is not simply a place, but a state of being. The Saved will enjoy God's loving presence as a nice warmth. The unSaved will experience it as fire.

 

 

Those who find themselved in Hell will be chastized with the scouge of Love. How cruel and bitter this torment of Love will be! The sorrow which takes hold of the heart which has sinned against Love is more piercing than any other pain. St. Isaac of Syria.

 

So, the Saved will eternally enjoy God's Love, and the lost will spend eternity in the presence of a Love that is hated, rejected, and despised.

 

 

This life is preparation for the afterlife. If we have faith and do good works, we may be Saved. For those that don't follow God, they may not be. It's like the Sun. If someone puts on sunscreen, they don't get burnt and they may get a nice tan. If someone doesnt put on any sunscreen, they'll get burnt. Is the Sun doing anything wrong? No. Neither is God. Faith and works in this life is our putting on of the "sunscreen".

I thought you were supposed to be different from fundies, but so far besides having a temporary torture chamber instead of an eternal one, you differ very little from them. The whole "God doesn't send you to hell, we choose to go there are ourselves" rhetoric is the same old cliche fundies use in their arguments all the time. Your beliefs might differ slightly, but you're still working from the same "us vs. them", "black and white", "good vs. evil", "saved vs unsaved" tribal mentality that the fundies have. Your version of hell makes no sense. First, you claim that hell is a state of being, not a physical place yet we'll experience pain as fire? That makes no sense. Fire is something that is physical, so how can we experience something physical as a state of being? Using the scouge of love as a form of punishment is nonsense and frankly, I find it to be very childish.

 

It's like how in high school, you have the popular kids and the nerdy kids and the popular kids teach the nerdy kids a lesson for not giving them all the answers on a test to cheat with by alienating them in class. That's what your god is, he's nothing more than a schoolyard bully. He's hardly the definition of a loving god. Your sunscreen analogy also doesn't make any sense. For one thing, we actually have evidence that the sun exists and that it causes us damage to our skin. We have no evidence that god exists nor that hell/sin/Satan/whatever is damaging our skin. Besides, god is the one who created the sun in the first place, so god is the one who is causing damage to your skin. Likewise, god is the one who created hell, so god is the one who is sending you there. I think a more accurate analogy is that it's like a kidnapper who puts a gun to your head and tells you to choose between doing what he tells you to or dying, and then telling the victim that it's not his fault, you're the one who made the choice. Now replace the kidnapper with god and the gun with hell and the argument is the same.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

This is where I get to answer a question from a Christian with a typically Christian response. No, I don't have any ill will toward any Christian (generally), but I do harbor ill will toward Christianity. So it's your "love the sinner, hate the sin" bullshit spun back around at ya.

[Brother Jeff]

Brother Jeff,

 

So, you think Christianity doesn't let you enjoy life to the fullness? I haven't experienced this.

 

I don't mean this to be offensive, but you're not old enough yet to have experienced it. I hadn't experienced it either at your age, and I had been a Christian a couple of years then. Of course Christianity doesn't allow followers to enjoy life to the fullest. How can they when they are wrapped up in the guilt, fear, shame, etc. that is so much a defining part of religion? Religion doesn't free people, it imprisons them! If you really want to be free, then throw off the shackles of religion! All of the dogma you are spouting is just that - dogma - with no demonstrable basis in reality. There isn't any evidence that there is a God or that heaven or hell actually exist. There isn't any evidence that the Bible is the "word" of a God. There isn't any evidence that we survive physical death. All you've got is a bunch of ancient mythology and dogma, nothing more. We know that. You have yet to realize it. I just hope you do before you waste too much more of the only life you are ever going to have devoting it to religious mythology and nonsense.

[Drifter]

Neon Genesis,

 

No one chooses to go to hell. I understand that. God is the judge. On the Day of Judgement, He will take into account all of man's individual actions, his amount of faith, etc and so forth. I don't know who's going to hell. I could meet a Devil worshipper on the street, and still not know. That is God's Judgement alone.

 

God did not create hell. While hell may be a place {as the righteous and the unrighteous will no coexist in the same place, although all will go into communion with God after death}, it was not created by Him. Hell came into existence when we sinned. God doesn't say "believe this or go to hell". God loves everyone, even those who do not believe in Him.

 

His Love is not literal fire. It's emotional, or perhaps spirtual. It hurts like fire, because we will know that we have sinned against divine love; love in its essence. As St. Isaac of Syria said, there is no greater pain that that. God does not torment us. We will go into the presence of God when we die, prepared or not, and God will just be Himself. It is us who will be tormented by His presence, because we will not enjoy doing the things that He does. And we will live eternally in the presence of God's love, which is hated, rejected and despised. It's nothing God does to us, it's our lack of preperation to enter into the full presence of God. Now some people, who do not prepare, may still enter into heaven. Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless. I believe the ignorant will go to heaven because God will have Mercy on those who have never heard of the gospel; save them from their hell, so to speak. Their own hell that they have created for themselves, because of their sins.

[Drifter]

Brother Jeff,

 

So, you think Christianity doesn't let you enjoy life to the fullness? I haven't experienced this.

 

I don't mean this to be offensive, but you're not old enough yet to have experienced it. I hadn't experienced it either at your age, and I had been a Christian a couple of years then. Of course Christianity doesn't allow followers to enjoy life to the fullest. How can they when they are wrapped up in the guilt, fear, shame, etc. that is so much a defining part of religion? Religion doesn't free people, it imprisons them! If you really want to be free, then throw off the shackles of religion! All of the dogma you are spouting is just that - dogma - with no demonstrable basis in reality. There isn't any evidence that there is a God or that heaven or hell actually exist. There isn't any evidence that the Bible is the "word" of a God. There isn't any evidence that we survive physical death. All you've got is a bunch of ancient mythology and dogma, nothing more. We know that. You have yet to realize it. I just hope you do before you waste too much more of the only life you are ever going to have devoting it to religious mythology and nonsense.

 

 

I see. Well, could you give my some examples? What is it that you can do when you're not a Christian, that you can't do when you're a Christian?

 

 

By the way; this goes to anyone: If I get too "preachy" or come off as such, tell me. In the meantime, I'm enjoying talking about religion.

[white_raven23]

Babies can go to heaven because they are sinless. The preparation, which is work and faith, is shedding the passions on earth, before we enter into the presence of God.

 

 

So....going along with the MEANING of preperation that chefranden was getting at.....we have to shed out passions now because there is no place for them in heaven.

 

Passions.

 

Think of what that means you are getting rid of... no doubt, you are cherry-picking the "negative" definitions of the word.

 

It means expunging yourself of love, enthusiasm, hope, motivation, and altruism....along with the definitions you are focusing on.... sexual desire, rage, and suffering.

 

I'd rather go to hell than give up the aspects of passion you are choosing to overlook. To be prepared for a place absent of enthusiam, hope, motivation, and only a singular selfish love??? Your Heaven sounds like Hell to me.

[Jeff H]

Drifter,

 

Being a young'un myself (turning 21 in just over a week), I know at least in some way what you're going through. This time in our lives is already filled with plenty of turmoil and big choices that we must make. Choices about school, careers, and all sorts of crazy other ones is all compounded by a need to figure out what we believe. For me, at least, it's a time when I just want to nail down what I believe and just be done with it. And so the past nine months or so for me has been nine months of research and reading, as I'm sure you have been doing as well.

 

During that period of doubt for me, I was in contact with a Catholic group, and thus did a lot of research on Roman Catholic beliefs. While they differ in some ways from Orthodox, they are also very similar in many ways.

 

One of the questions that I posed to my Catholic friend was this:

If God saves (or can save us) as a result of our good deeds and our belief....(and in your case, if we are not stained with Adam's sin).....then why the hell did God need to send Jesus down here to have himself killed?

 

This sort of thing makes no sense. Sure, you can say that the Orthodox church is the "Ark of salvation" and all that stuff, but why then was Jesus' gruesome death necessary at all? If it's just up to God as to who gets into heaven and who doesn't, then why the heck would he go through that whole process?

 

This, to me, is one of the biggest impediments to a "faith-and-works" type salvation. It seems to indicate that Jesus didn't have to die, but for some reason he did anyways. Was it just for kicks? Or does God get some sick twisted pleasure from seeing his kid die? I don't know. It never made sense to me, even as a Christian.

[white_raven23]

Drifter,

 

A special note from me at this time.

 

We are not ganging up on you.

 

It probably feels like it because so many people are trying to get you to THINK about all the different aspects of the things you've been bringing up. A sculpture or an idea can look absolutely great from the front....but if you look from the side or the back, maybe that sculpture is off-kilter, or that great idea only benefits some people, while putting duress on many others.

 

We can be pretty overwhelming, as a group when we try to encourage thought...and some of us can be more insistent on how far open your mind should be than others.

 

About me (Yeah...I liked your idea Legion!):

 

31 years old.

College graduate - B.A. in Psychology

Hobbies include - reading, world travel, writing, watching movies, and a little gaming.

Countries I've been to outside of USA: Japan, China, Greece, Spain, Monaco, France, and Italy

Currently reading: Bloody Mary by Carolly Erickson

Unmarried, In a relationship, no kids and no desire for them

[Kuroikaze]

I see. Well, could you give my some examples? What is it that you can do when you're not a Christian, that you can't do when you're a Christian?

 

You're thinking about it the wrong way. Obviously there are some things that many people won't do as a christian that they might do otherwise. Premarital sex, for instance (lots of Christians do this anyway, it's people like me who take everything seriously that actually didn't), I stopped listening to almost all secular music. However, this isn't really the problem, its not about what you do or don't do, its about the basic attitudes towards life that Christianity fosters.

 

Christianity teaches people to be very pessimistic, to hate themselves, to to dislike the world around them. Christians do all the same basic things that non-believers do, they get up, they go to work or school, they come home. However, it seems to me, as a Christian the entire experience is tainted. If things go badly its ones own fault because we didn't "trust god enough" or "pray enough" but if things go well, god gets all the credit instead, "praise god my surgery went well" Yeah, don't thank the doctor its not like he went to years of school and training to do the surgery.

 

Life here can no longer be enjoyed just for the sake of itself, it is always overshadowed and eclipsed by "the next life." The choices one makes here are based upon how one thinks it will effect their next life, rather than living in the simple enjoyment of the moment.

 

Of course you may not have experienced this at all, but Jeff is right, you are still pretty young, you haven't seen the dark side of religious belief like I have (if you're lucky you never will), when I was 21 I was still "on fire for Jesus," Which is not to say that all older people are wiser, some refuse to learn from experience, and are just old. But when I was 21 I thought I had the world all figured out, 9 years later I am just realizing how much I don't know.

 

 

Ah, About me:

 

30 years old,

B.A. in religious studies from Hendrix College

Hobbies: Guitar, Anime, Video games, Philosophy, reading

Not married, no kids

Currently living in Japan, teaching English at a high school in Kawagoe

[florduh]

I just can't get past wondering why people believe the unproven and illogical things they do. Where do they get these bizarre beliefs and why do they lend any credence to them?

 

Random example (there are dozens so far): His Love is not literal fire. It's emotional, or perhaps spirtual. It hurts like fire, because we will know that we have sinned against divine love; love in its essence.

 

On what authority is this notion true? Somebody makes an unfounded statement like this and people go, "Ah, yes. That is exactly how it is." Why believe another man's made-up story? Why, why why?

 

Could it possibly be better and more honest to look for EVIDENCE of things, use logic and common sense, and prove them to be true before believing them? Otherwise, it is just a matter of randomly choosing one man's "revelation" over another man's "revelation" to adopt as your own. If you had been born and raised in Iran you would be searching for the sect that best represents Allah rather than searching for the "true" Christian church.

[Vigile]

What's the deal Drifter? I'm not playing along by discussing the details of your religion so you have me on ignore? I've asked you some hard questions and haven't gotten one response.

 

If what you believe is real it should be able to stand up to tough questions no?

[Brother Jeff]

I see. Well, could you give my some examples? What is it that you can do when you're not a Christian, that you can't do when you're a Christian?

 

You're thinking about it the wrong way. Obviously there are some things that many people won't do as a christian that they might do otherwise. Premarital sex, for instance (lots of Christians do this anyway, it's people like me who take everything seriously that actually didn't), I stopped listening to almost all secular music. However, this isn't really the problem, its not about what you do or don't do, its about the basic attitudes towards life that Christianity fosters.

 

Christianity teaches people to be very pessimistic, to hate themselves, to to dislike the world around them. Christians do all the same basic things that non-believers do, they get up, they go to work or school, they come home. However, it seems to me, as a Christian the entire experience is tainted. If things go badly its ones own fault because we didn't "trust god enough" or "pray enough" but if things go well, god gets all the credit instead, "praise god my surgery went well" Yeah, don't thank the doctor its not like he went to years of school and training to do the surgery.

 

Life here can no longer be enjoyed just for the sake of itself, it is always overshadowed and eclipsed by "the next life." The choices one makes here are based upon how one thinks it will effect their next life, rather than living in the simple enjoyment of the moment.

 

Of course you may not have experienced this at all, but Jeff is right, you are still pretty young, you haven't seen the dark side of religious belief like I have (if you're lucky you never will), when I was 21 I was still "on fire for Jesus," Which is not to say that all older people are wiser, some refuse to learn from experience, and are just old. But when I was 21 I thought I had the world all figured out, 9 years later I am just realizing how much I don't know.

 

 

Ah, About me:

 

30 years old,

B.A. in religious studies from Hendrix College

Hobbies: Guitar, Anime, Video games, Philosophy, reading

Not married, no kids

Currently living in Japan, teaching English at a high school in Kawagoe

What Kuroikaze said. Plus if you aren't shackled by religion, you can think for yourself and make your own choices in life, and take responsibility for those choices as well.

 

About me:

 

42 years old

Intermittently in college, studying Occupational Therapy

Hobbies: Websites, reading, football, hiking (not necessarily in that order)

Not married, no kids now, but would love a kid or two in the future

I live in Alaska, and I love it! Glory!

[centauri]

Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless.

 

Well, that pretty much pushes St. Paul out of doctrinal caravan, splattering one of his primary teachings all over the highway.

[Drifter]

Babies have no need for this, because they're sinless.

 

Well, that pretty much pushes St. Paul out of doctrinal caravan, splattering one of his primary teachings all over the highway.

 

 

Such as?

[Drifter]

What's the deal Drifter? I'm not playing along by discussing the details of your religion so you have me on ignore? I've asked you some hard questions and haven't gotten one response.

 

If what you believe is real it should be able to stand up to tough questions no?

 

 

Yes. I thought you were making some comments, not asking questions for me to answer.

[Legion]

There is hope for me? What is so horrible about Christianity? Granted, this isn't what most people on the forums believe, but is that it?

Drifter I don’t believe everything I absorbed from Christianity was horrible. For instance, Proverbs says to seek understanding for she is more precious than gold. And Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you (he wasn’t the only one saying this). Both these things seem like sound advice to me still.

 

I think you could adhere to Christianity all your life man. And if that’s the best thing for you, then I say go for it. But I know that had I remained a Christian I would have gone crazy (or crazier). I was learning too many other things that conflicted with it. I also suspect I would not have been as receptive to other good ideas that I encountered later in life had I remained a Christian.

 

I think Christianity would only be horrible for you if it kept you from reaching your full potential. I suppose the question to ask is… Will it?