Any Ill Will Toward Christians?

[Deva]

Except for the God loves us part, even in the doctrine you mentioned {sin, salvation, atonement}, there are differences.

 

So why not deliniate the differences for us instead of just making a statement. I own an Orthodox Study Bible, lets go into it.

[Drifter]

If you have seen the place I work at, you wouldn't even ask. I have very thick skin, and have no need to be treated with kid gloves. It's just that when I talk to people around here, they seem to have a preconceived idea of what I'm going to say, or what I believe. Most of the people I've seen post around here are exevangelicals or have a real problem with fundies. I'm neither. Yet, people assume my beliefs or guess my "angle" before I even say anything.

 

Yeah, whether you are a fundy or not remains to be seen. Its not that I think you are lying or anything, but we've had lots of people come here saying they weren't and it didn't stop them from being jerks.

 

As for us assuming. Think of it this way, even if fundies don't admit it, evangelism is about manipulation and taking advantage of people in weak states of minds. Being that we were there, we know all the tactics.

 

Its like trying to con an ex-con man, its hard because they know what too look for, on the other hand an ex-con man is going to be more suspicious of everyone in general.

You may not be trying to evangelize, but if you say something that sounds similar to something I would have said, I recognize it as a tactic I would have used, then I get suspicious.

 

The biggest tell is when people start speaking in Christianese, phrases like "its not a religion its a relationship" tend to irk a lot of us here. In part because it reminds of things we used to say.

 

Oh okay. I see what you're saying. Especially that last part. I hate that phrase, too.

[hereticzero]

Just wondering......

 

Have you all noticed an abundance of new posters whose god is "Yeshua"?

 

 

I know you're not insinuating that I'm making alot of different accounts.

Guilty conscience? Get your ass kicked in one account and open another?

 

The Yesuhaites came about a few years ago when someone made up a phony name 'Yeshua' to be the name of Jesus in Hebrew instead of the Greek name Iesus. Keep in mind there has been no accepted Hebrew text in the babble that was written in Hebrew, only Greek manuscripts make up the gospels in the NT. The Yeshuaties have been growing slowly in numbers, many are Hebrew wannabes. They indulge in Hebrew customs, ignoring the law of Moses, of course--as I doubt they dress like Jews but they want what the Jews have. American Indians refer to such people as 'Shame-ons'.

 

This guy, Drifter, is writing and posting like he/she is one of the good ol' boys on our website. Presently he is just stirring up hornets and not really saying much. So, Drifter, what is your purpose being here? If you are not contributing and are just posting little remarks to get an argument started then, why not leave?

[Kuroikaze]

No, why? Is it Christmas yet? Oh, you said, 'ill towards christians', sorry, my mistake.

I don't hate christians. I hate their smarmy message of make-believe friends and an invisible sky-daddy that cursed all of creation over a piece of fruit given to a little girl by a talking snake. jesus is based on this fable. I do not see god killing himself over a fable. It is not what we think about christians, it is the story that has an unholsome flavor.

 

So if you encounter a Christian in real life, what do you do when you find out they're a Christian? Do you try to deconvert them?

 

Unsurprisingly this doesn't come up much anymore. Living in a country that's only 2% christian does that, I guess.

 

Personally I don't really ask about peoples religious beliefs, I never knew what most of the people at my last job believed. If I find out, I usually don't bother, if we have a discussion I give my ideas and leave it at that. If they come at me and start preaching, I tend to be more direct. But deconvert? That's not the way it works, you can't talk people out of their beliefs, nor does one wake up one morning and say "this sound like a good day to become a heathen" It took about 3 years from my first doubts until I admitted to myself I no longer believed.

[hereticzero]

No, why? Is it Christmas yet? Oh, you said, 'ill towards christians', sorry, my mistake.

I don't hate christians. I hate their smarmy message of make-believe friends and an invisible sky-daddy that cursed all of creation over a piece of fruit given to a little girl by a talking snake. jesus is based on this fable. I do not see god killing himself over a fable. It is not what we think about christians, it is the story that has an unholsome flavor.

 

So if you encounter a Christian in real life, what do you do when you find out they're a Christian? Do you try to deconvert them?

No, a good stoning takes care of it.

[hereticzero]

I agree with Kuroikaze, I don't care what religion people are. If they don't preach to me, we get along just fine.

[Drifter]

Except for the God loves us part, even in the doctrine you mentioned {sin, salvation, atonement}, there are differences.

 

So why not deliniate the differences for us instead of just making a statement. I own an Orthodox Study Bible, lets go into it.

 

 

Really? So do I.

 

Let's see...

 

First of all, the Orthodox Church doesn't believe we carry around the guilt of Adam's sin. Because of his sin, we have a tendency to sin, but we are guilty of our own sins, and no one elses. Most evangelical churches I've seen believe we are guilty of Adam's sin. I think the RCC does too. Which is why they try to baptize children as soon as possible.

 

 

There is no "once saved, always saved". We have to have faith in Christ and do good works as evidence for our salvation. So, we're Saved by faith and works. Not one and the other; but both. They go hand in hand. And this is a continual walk and struggle. We don't just say a simple prayer, and that's it. And we will not be "Saved" until we're with Christ. We may have confidence in our own Salvation, but not assurance.

 

Christ did die for our sins. But it wasn't an angry God putting to death His Son. Christ came to conquer. The Cross was a victory, not a defeat. By Christ's death, he deafeted death, the devil, and hell.

 

May I ask why you own an Orthodox Study Bible? I'm just curious if you just like to study other religions, or if you were thinking about joining it before you became an exchristian.

[Drifter]

Just wondering......

 

Have you all noticed an abundance of new posters whose god is "Yeshua"?

 

 

I know you're not insinuating that I'm making alot of different accounts.

Guilty conscience? Get your ass kicked in one account and open another?

 

The Yesuhaites came about a few years ago when someone made up a phony name 'Yeshua' to be the name of Jesus in Hebrew instead of the Greek name Iesus. Keep in mind there has been no accepted Hebrew text in the babble that was written in Hebrew, only Greek manuscripts make up the gospels in the NT. The Yeshuaties have been growing slowly in numbers, many are Hebrew wannabes. They indulge in Hebrew customs, ignoring the law of Moses, of course--as I doubt they dress like Jews but they want what the Jews have. American Indians refer to such people as 'Shame-ons'.

 

This guy, Drifter, is writing and posting like he/she is one of the good ol' boys on our website. Presently he is just stirring up hornets and not really saying much. So, Drifter, what is your purpose being here? If you are not contributing and are just posting little remarks to get an argument started then, why not leave?

 

 

The only reason I put 'Yeshua' there is because saying "Jesus" makes me sound kinda...Well... evangelical. Maybe a stupid reason, but I'm trying to get out of that mindset. I was raised Protestant. So, it's not easy.

[hereticzero]

Please don't nitpick on the words...preaching, witnessing, proselytizing, proclaiming, moralizing, saving, warning, advising....you name...we've heard it. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and we're not going back. (Once you know Santa isn't real, you can't go back to believing in him. Same thing.) A novel approach would be to present some real, tangible evidence. EVIDENCE. Not feelings. Not bible quotes. Not voices in your head. Not being touched in the heart. Some real hard physical evidence--like.......ummmmmmmmm........ a talking snake. Until then, leave us alone. This is our EX-CHRISTIAN website.

 

Then why don't yall ban the Christians that come on here, rather than tell them its alright to debate? That's what the Lion's Den is for; ar at least that's what it says.

Some christians post here. If they make claims about their religion, they better be able to back them up.

 

A debate is a structured argument for or against something. Preaching and witnessing is a one-sided, one-voice argument where one person speaks their mind and expects everyone to nod their heads and keep silent--respect the person's religious beliefs. That won't happen here in the Lion's Den. This is a free-for-all bare-knuckle brawl over anything posted in this area. If you post here, gird your loins or someone will rip them off!

[hereticzero]

The only reason I put 'Yeshua' there is because saying "Jesus" makes me sound kinda...Well... evangelical. Maybe a stupid reason, but I'm trying to get out of that mindset. I was raised Protestant. So, it's not easy.

'Yeshua' makes me want to puke more than 'Jesus' or 'Iesus'. Making claims of god-hood are hard to backup. If Jesus did not exist, what makes you think Yeshua did? Or, if Jesus were not the son of god, then what entitles someone named 'Yeshua'? Evangelism is evangelism, it doesn't matter what the names are, the message is always the same.

[Deva]

There is no "once saved, always saved". We have to have faith in Christ and do good works as evidence for our salvation. So, we're Saved by faith and works. Not one and the other; but both. They go hand in hand. And this is a continual walk and struggle. We don't just say a simple prayer, and that's it. And we will not be "Saved" until we're with Christ. We may have confidence in our own Salvation, but not assurance.

 

I don't think that I said that there were no differences in regard to the doctrine of how one comes to be saved.

 

 

May I ask why you own an Orthodox Study Bible? I'm just curious if you just like to study other religions, or if you were thinking about joining it before you became an exchristian.

 

It is both reasons but mainly the latter. Yes I almost went into the orthodox church.

 

I am presently at work so do not have time to address your other point with regard to the guilt of sin. Will get back to it later.

[jackbauer]

Eh, I try not to. I'm not into bashing people unless they are being judgmental and superior. People believe what they believe whether I agree with it or not. Hell, even some of my friends are Christian, so it would be silly to have ill will toward them.

 

What gets me is the belief itself. I may not have been as experienced in dealing with this stuff (I don't live in the bible belt and my family's not super religious) but in the end, no matter how one suger coats it, it's all basically the same thing; we're all hell bound and we need to believe in Christ, get saved, and repent; despite the lack of any real proof. Sure, there are differences between fundamentalists and moderate Christians, but like I said, the details my be different, but the basic idea is still there.

[Ouroboros]

I'm just curious, do you {exchristians} have any ill will toward Christians now?

Yes and no (no one said it was simple).

 

I don't have anything against Christians as human beings, their right to exist, thrive, or believe whatever they want.

 

However, I am irritated over that some Christians tend to get their head stuck in their religion so hard, that they can't see that we have to be able to live together. Without them shoving their belief down everyone's throat. The Bible does not teach that Christians should use violence or legislation to force their religion on society, but rather the truth is that Jesus and Paul indicated to let government be secular and untouched.

 

Btw, Drifter, the cross you have is kind of interesting. Why does it have the little foot-thingy at the bottom?

[Taphophilia]

I do not hate Christians per se. Though, I have a very difficult time having any kind of conversation with them without their injecting their beliefs into every other sentence. Not only this, but they tend to misquote scripture, get stories in the Bible mixed up, spout popular Christian psychobabble, and generally believe they are right about their beliefs and anyone, including other Christians, who disagree with them are wrong. No, I don't hate them, but they do have a tendency to get on my nerves.

 

When I have a conversation, I want to talk to a real person. Not someone who can only repeat pre-programmed catch phrases or who doesn't know how to come up with their own ideas and refuses to think.

 

Taph

[Legion]

Yet, people assume my beliefs or guess my "angle" before I even say anything.

I believe that's called stereotyping. I have been guilty of it too.

 

Drifter we were once Christians. And we have rejected Christianity, sometimes vehemently. So I would say that we are most definitely biased against Christianity.

 

In the past we have had heated and passionate debates among ourselves about how the Christians who come here should be treated. There is no consensus. My suggestion is that you take us on a person by person basis.

 

Some will treat you with respect, despite the fact that you still adhere to Christianity, and some will treat you with contempt because of it.

[Robbobrob]

I'm just curious, do you {exchristians} have any ill will toward Christians now?

Not ill will, but I do still have a prejudice against them (including my own family) and other "Our Way Is the Only Right Way" religions. It bothers me to have the prejudice, but then I hear in the media someone saying something like it is Truth, and it drives me nuts. And when I find someone needing to mention their beliefs in public, I do find them less appealing as a person. I'd like to get beyond that point someday. but for now, websites like this are great because they are the few places around where I feel safe from the majority's beliefs (including Americanism). Reminds me there are other ways to look at the world and universe. Far too long has the single-minded culture of Christianity run things. Annoying really. Undemocratic, and anti-liberty. If it works for you fine, but too many think it should work for me too, and that is not fine. Not fine at all.

[Evolution_beyond]

I'm just curious, do you {exchristians} have any ill will toward Christians now?

 

as long as they're not anti-gay, oppressive to women, trying to alter the school curriculum or trying to preach at me as I'm walking around town then I couldn't care less what they believe in or do with their spare time.

[Spiderwire]

I'll throw in here... you seem like you're asking honest questions even though I think you're on a bit of a crusade. You asked about the preaching. When you make statements like "Christ did die for our sins." you need to understand that I don't believe that. When you make a statement like that and place it on the table as fact, you're going to get very little from me. Your points of reference mean nothing to me. By that I mean to say that referencing the scriptures to make a point or to present a "fact" is to reference nothing. I know what the Bible says - I studied it for years. I don't believe it is the inspired, infallible, irrefutable "word" of ANY "god". You proclaim scripture in the same manner and with the same authority that a mathematician would with algebraic equations or a civil engineer would with bridge trusses. The obvious difference between you and the individuals I mentioned is that algebraic equations and bridge trusses are reality - even though one could be considered abstract thought and the other a physical property - and there is a clear method of proceeding in the correct manner. It's tangible and if one violates the procedure in anyway, they are subject to correction and criticism. There is no middle ground. One is either absolutely correct or completely incorrect. The fact of the matter is that the scriptures are nothing more than an invented story. You don't have to agree that scripture is manufactured and you can say, "But I feel it in my spirit that it's true!" all you want. I won't question the individual who is the subject matter expert on geometry or compaction ratios, but the honest to goodness truth is that no one, not even you, is the subject matter expert on any religion. Christianity, and all other world religions, are a cross between fantasy and Calvinball. (Please note, specifically, Calvinball Official Rule 1.2 - if that isn't religion, I don't know what is.) In summary, when you make a statement and back it up with "in accordance to the scriptures" or "Jesus tells us" or "God did whatever"... well, we really have nothing to talk about. I can't take you seriously even though you're being very serious. I'll talk fishin' and motorcyles with you all day, however.

 

You also asked if there are any actions of thoughts of deconverting someone whom we know is Christian. I can only speak for myself, so I'll do so. If there is anything I hate, it's being told my thoughts, deeds, and motives are INCORRECT. There are guidelines to that statement, of course. As I mentioned above, if I'm about to attempt to move a 36 ton load with a crane that's rated with a 22 ton capability and someone rushes out to tell me I'm a flaming dumbass, I have that one coming. Someone needs to tell me that action is not only wrong, but incredibly foolish. If I'm thinking buying a brand new Hummer and I can't pay the bills out in my mailbox, I would expect someone to say, "Ya know, dude, your way of thinking makes no sense." So in that area, whether I would be receptive or not, my thoughts being called into account would be reasonable for someone who cares about my welfare. If I'm seeking a promotion and I'm stabbing my co-workers in the back to distinquish myself, one would be full well in their rights to call me on my motives. But that's not what I'm getting at. Because I don't subscribe to the Christian belief any longer, I'm wrong in the eyes of those who follow the scriptures. Not only am I wrong, but I'm damned. My every action is now for nothing and my life has no purpose. My thoughts are evil and my mouth brings forth iniquities. Well, that's simply not true. By default, I'm covered by the blanket statements that the Bible makes about all unbelievers. And due to that fact, I'm viewed as both an object of conquest and as a total loss to humanity. (How do I know this? Because I was a Christian at one time!) I despise the fact that someone would have the audacity to consider my thoughts, deeds, and motive to be below their own. In the same manner, I will not treat anyone else like that. I have absolutely zero interest or desire in seeing a Christian cast off their faith for two main reasons. First, because of the fact that I believe people should be free to believe as they like - even if I don't agree. As long as they are respectful and conduct themselves in a manner in which they would like to be treated. With that said, here at Ex-C, the overwhelming majority of Christians who visit here and post are of the lowest caliber of Christianity and because of their piousness and condemnation, I gladly heap sarcasm and anger upon them because they aren't treating others as they would be treated. Besides, you guys don't hang around very long after you find out that we don't give a shit about what you have to say in the areas of personal belief and then business returns to normal and we continue to have the discussions we enjoy having. Secondly, I know what wrestling with deep-seated religious belief is like. I know full well what it feels like to have my spritual foundation crumble around me. I know what it feels like to cry out to the heavens and ask... plead... beg.. demand that the god I've devoted myself to would, in some small way, respond and give a measure of comfort in knowing that he was there and that I was on the right track. I know the utter lonliness of realizing that everything I'd invested my life in was a big, fat fake. Honestly, I wouldn't want to see anyone find themselves spiritually bankrupt and in complete and total turmoil. With that said, I could care less if you believe in your god and his alleged writings to mankind. If, one day, you come to the awareness that it no longer satisfies you, I won't rejoice in the fact that you will have gone through a process similar to what I experienced. I will, however, probably be here on the forums to listen to your story and chime in with what's worked or what's working with me.

 

Ill will toward Christians? Yes, I do have ill will toward Christians. But that ill will is directed toward specific individuals who claim to be Christians rather than Christians in general. I don't like being lied to, taken advantage of, used, ripped off, or treated like a second-class citizen and there are more than a handful of "the faithful" whom I have those legitimate complaints against. But it's all good. I don't need the Bible to tell me that what comes around goes around... what a man sows, so shall he reap? Nothing earthshatteringly spiritual about that message.

[Deva]

First of all, the Orthodox Church doesn't believe we carry around the guilt of Adam's sin. Because of his sin, we have a tendency to sin, but we are guilty of our own sins, and no one elses. Most evangelical churches I've seen believe we are guilty of Adam's sin. I think the RCC does too. Which is why they try to baptize children as soon as possible.

 

I concede some difference on the understanding of original sin, but I fail to see enormous overall differences. Evangelicals believe in sin, a tendency to sin, guilty of our sins. Orthodox Christians must go to confession. Just because the orthodox church doesn't accept St. Augustine doesn't mean that for them, sin isn't a huge problem, just like it is for ALL forms of Christianity, except for the most liberal branches. The Orthodox Church isn't one of them. I don't see how this precludes us from making some assumptions about where you are coming from. You believe sin is a problem, just like the evangelicals.

 

The fact that the Christian churches are so divided over "sin" and other issues shows this is purely man-made.

 

Christ did die for our sins. But it wasn't an angry God putting to death His Son. Christ came to conquer. The Cross was a victory, not a defeat. By Christ's death, he deafeted death, the devil, and hell.

 

Many protestants, and I would wager even some evangelicals, would agree with everything you just wrote. Certainly it is the postion of the Episcopal Church, which I used to attend.

[florduh]

I understand you feel obliged to share your unique understanding of The Word. Believers come here all the time because they know they have the correct information that everybody else has somehow missed. Your secret revelation is so wonderful it is your duty to educate us. I once felt the same way, as did most people here.

 

Most Christian visitors simply repeat the standard lines from any one of the dozens (hundreds?) of sects. Occasionally there is a truly unique maverick whose understanding of the Bible is so oddball it is quite entertaining. Where do they dream up this stuff?

 

Anyway, most get frustrated and eventually leave after having all their pet notions disproved, but be warned - others actually begin to examine their faith and start to study real history and science. The skill of critical thinking seeps in, and there's no turning back once you've seen the man behind the curtain.

[Taphophilia]

First of all, the Orthodox Church doesn't believe we carry around the guilt of Adam's sin. Because of his Christ did die for our sins. But it wasn't an angry God putting to death His Son. Christ came to conquer. The Cross was a victory, not a defeat. By Christ's death, he deafeted death, the devil, and hell.

 

Child sacrifice is still child sacrifice. No where in the Bible does Jesus ever say he was willing sacrificing himself. As a matter of fact, Jesus begs his father not to go through it, to the point he sweats blood. Having your child put to death, while ignoring their pleas is not loving. It is not heroic. It is sick and twisted callousness. Why do you base your belief system on such an ancient and barbaric act as child sacrifice?

 

How did Christ defeat death if we still die? Defeating death means we don't die, but we still do. Everyone and everything dies. So, it doesn't seem to me that Christ defeated death, when, in fact, we die. You can say that the soul going to hell is death, but according to your beliefs souls still go to hell. How, again, is that defeating death?

 

Taph

[♦ nivek ♦]

You want Truth?

 

If murder were legal just for 24 hours, there is a short list of persons I would consider removing from the religious world I escaped from and that portion of the gene pool.

 

kFL

[Onyx]

I am angry and wish ill will on Christian people like Fred Phelps, Brian Tamaki and Rushdooney but Christian people who aren't these kind of people are okay with me. They even are good friends of mine.

 

What is the secret to their likeability? For starters, they aren't big fans of theocracy, they don't preach at other people, they keep their opinions civil and they have this 'let and live' approach. So should the world have that attitude. We'd be happier and have less wars.

[Drifter]

First of all, the Orthodox Church doesn't believe we carry around the guilt of Adam's sin. Because of his Christ did die for our sins. But it wasn't an angry God putting to death His Son. Christ came to conquer. The Cross was a victory, not a defeat. By Christ's death, he deafeted death, the devil, and hell.

 

Child sacrifice is still child sacrifice. No where in the Bible does Jesus ever say he was willing sacrificing himself. As a matter of fact, Jesus begs his father not to go through it, to the point he sweats blood. Having your child put to death, while ignoring their pleas is not loving. It is not heroic. It is sick and twisted callousness. Why do you base your belief system on such an ancient and barbaric act as child sacrifice?

 

How did Christ defeat death if we still die? Defeating death means we don't die, but we still do. Everyone and everything dies. So, it doesn't seem to me that Christ defeated death, when, in fact, we die. You can say that the soul going to hell is death, but according to your beliefs souls still go to hell. How, again, is that defeating death?

 

Taph

 

 

Firstly, Jesus was 100% Human and 100% God. When Jesus was speaking with the Father in the Garden, asking Him to let the cup pass, He was speaking as a Human. And, even as a Human, He said "You're will be done". Jesus' divine nature, however, is always of the same mind of the Father. Jesus, who is God, wanted to die for His creation because He loves us.

 

 

Christ defeated spiritual death. Before acceptance of Christ and Baptism, we are dead in our sins. Christ is the Resurrection and the Life; He brings us to life.

[Drifter]

I'm just curious, do you {exchristians} have any ill will toward Christians now?

Yes and no (no one said it was simple).

 

I don't have anything against Christians as human beings, their right to exist, thrive, or believe whatever they want.

 

However, I am irritated over that some Christians tend to get their head stuck in their religion so hard, that they can't see that we have to be able to live together. Without them shoving their belief down everyone's throat. The Bible does not teach that Christians should use violence or legislation to force their religion on society, but rather the truth is that Jesus and Paul indicated to let government be secular and untouched.

 

Btw, Drifter, the cross you have is kind of interesting. Why does it have the little foot-thingy at the bottom?

 

 

The foot thing is where Jesus's feet were nailed to the cross. It's slanted because, traditionally, there were two thieves crucified next to Jesus. One thief was repentant toward Christ, and the other mocked Him and was unrepentant. The repentant thief went to heaven, and the unrepentant thief went to hell; which is indicated by one side up, and the other down on the foot rest.