PRIAPUS

[Savedbyfaith]

 

OK, right there. The Guidance. Never really saw that. How should I have experienced this? I mean, I can read the moral and behavioral directives in the Bible, just like any unsaved can. No special salvation dividend to be realized there.

 

[sBF] Ok, no guidance you say. The Christian, once he experiences the new birth (John 3:3), has the Holy Spirit take up residence forever. Jesus teaches that the Spirit "guides" into all truth. Whatever scripture teaches about truth, the Spirit leads the Christian to it its application, and the promise of fulfillment. Why do some not experience fulfillment. There are three reasons. 1. The person is not acting in faith, 2. he has unconfessed sin, 3. He isn't born again. There is no scriptural justification to not experience the blessing of God's promises apart from these things.

 

In 12 years as a highly motivated, dutiful Christian from 26 to 38 years old I prayed for God's guidance and I gotta tellya, I never once got anything that I didn't get before or since being a Christian. That is, I'd get good and bad advice from people around me.

 

[sBF] Someone asked for an explanation of Matt. 7:22,23. I think these two verses are very revealing. They show that many think they are doing the will of God by casting out demons, prophesying, doing miralces. But they probably included other "Christian duties like praying, reading the Bible, going to church, etc. Not one of these MAKE a Christian, even though they seem Christian-like. It's like going around "quacking like a duck" without being one. That may not be the best illustration, but you see what I mean.

 

As a Christian, you should have had that "peace that passes all understanding" (Phil 4:7), and the assurance that you are a child of God (Rom. 8:16). You should have experienced the fruit of the Spirit that is evidence of a close walk with the Lord (Gal. 5:22,23).

 

I prayed for a Godly wife to share my life and to raise a family to glorify the Lord. I found a woman and we wed. It's been a most difficult and unsatisfying marriage. We're together only because of our children. We make an effort to get along for their sake. It's friendly enough, but not much love. We nearly divorced and prayer yielded nothing. It was not until after we gave up on "God's blessing" and took matters into our own hands that things turned around and we have a more tolerable situation. Not satisfying, but tolerable. Had I not been waiting for God's guidance which never came I might not have entered into this wedding. My Christian friends and Pastor, at the time, took the "If you're asking and God's not telling you otherwise, you must be in His will. Go for it!" attitude.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

[sBF] I don't know what to tell you about this. If you did everything you say you did, and nothing happened, it's not easy to say why nothing happened. OTOH, I know of married couples who experienced similar problems but were able to work them out in Christ. Some involved pornography. But there was a total committment on both sides to give their marriage to Christ and hard work. It wasn't easy, but Christ and their marriage prevailed. In your case, neither prevailed, or should I say, prevailing. May I ask which Church you were attending?

 

The promise of Ps. 23:3 is that God is leading down the path or righteousness. As a believer, I have God's righteousness in Christ through the new birth. By following his word, God promises to instruct me in the path of righteousness which is part of the blessed life in Christ.

 

As in the previous item, this promise was unfulfilled other than the dictates provided in the text of the Bible. But again, that is available to anyone, even the unsaved. Was there some special "still, small voice" I should have heard?"God's righteousness in Christ through the new birth." Huh? This sounds a little like some justification or suggestion that I'm made better having been "born again", but this is so nebulous and abstract as to be meaningless. Initially I felt exhilarated and was full of joy and anticipation of a fabulous new life full of communion with the Living God, but that faded over the years as I learned that my life was utterly unchanged.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

[sBF] Paul tells his readers that, "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away, behold, all things are new." (2 Cor. 5:17). Did you really believe that you were a new creation in Christ? Theres' another consideration. Have you consdidered the parable of the sower? You said that you initially felt "exhilerated, full of joy and anticipation of a new life." Jesus explains about the person who receives the word (seed) and is immediatley filled with joy. No doubt, he probably experienced the other things you mention. But notice he says the man had no root and when trouble or persecution came, he fell away. This happened to some of Jesus' disciples when he taught them hard truths and they stopped following him (John 6:66). It is not uncommon for some to receive the word, experience joy, but then fall away. I'm not saying this is your case, but maybe it is. Some things happened in your life that left you with no other choice but to "drop out."

 

I'd add to that the stories of my childrens' births, both of which ended up with a week in the neonatal intensive care units. We'd prayed and had our church friends praying for us to conceive and deliver healthy babys to God's glory. The pregnancies were unremarkable and all tests indicated healthy babies. Right up to the point where my son's born and they say, "Well, Mr. Priapus, your son's not breathing and we don't know why." After measuring and testing every last bit of his little body trying to figure out what was wrong, the doctors discovered a cyst on his larynx which they were able to remove on the 5th day. My daughter was born according to plan except that her lungs didn't clear and she required antibiotics for a week. Not as scary as with her brother, but still, no coming home with our Precious Gift from Loving God for a week after delivery. What was the value of all the prayer? Where was the protection? I dunno.

 

[sBF] The tragic circumstances of your son and daughter remind me of the man who was born blind (John chap. 9). No doubt, his parents grieved over this and prayed to God for healing. How could such a loving God allow an innocent baby come into the world without sight? How could this same God let an innocent baby be born with a cyst on his larynx or one with breathing problems? The answers aren't easy. Unfortunately, we live in a "fallen world" where anything can happen to anyone, anywhere at anytime. That is the hard and painful truth. Many people don't want to hear such "pessimism." You know as well as I that the world is under the curse brought by the fall of Adam and Eve and no one is exempt from its effects. One day the creation will be set free from it (Rom. 8:20,21). Until then, the hard, painful truth is that man will experience trouble from birth to death (Job 5:7). I think the bigger question is, how will we respond to it?

 

Then there was my bicycle crash while training for a triathlon. Oh the joy I felt, glorifying God with my strength and giving thanks with each mile. That is, until I woke up in the hospital, wondering where I was and how I got there. 5 broken ribs, a collarbone and a severe concussion (busted my helmet into 3 pieces). I spent two days in the hospital way the f*ck far from home so my wife could worry. Thanks Lord. My left arm works alright, but that shoulder's never going to be the same. It was a freak crash from some odd groove in the pavement I never saw. He protected me from stumbling but I guess not losing control of my bike.

 

[sBF] Your painful experience reminds me of Christopher Reeves (Superman - what irony). He fell off his horse and was paralyzed from the neck down. This man had to move about with a stick in his mouth to control his wheel chair. Talk about trouble. I'm sure he may have had the same reactions and questions. "Where are you God? Why don't you do something?" Why did you let that happen to me?" Many people would ask the same questions. But notice how he responded. He came to accept that his circumstances may not change and he did quite well. Are you familiar with Joni Erickson? She is a Christian who likewise experienced a terrible accident that left her fully paralyzed. But you know what? She has a full time ministry from her bedside and wheel chair. She determined not to let her circumstances stop her from living for Christ.

 

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

How should I have experienced this? I had no greater sense of God's presence during my years in church, nor any diminished presence leaving. "Receipt into glory" is another of those abstractions which is (a) irrelevant to this present life and ( will not be proven or disproved as we all know Christians who've died and know nothing of their condition post-mortem. You'll say you know they're in Heaven, but that's not knowledge, it is belief. Unless you have a postcard.

 

[sBF] Hey! Good idea. Maybe I'll take some with me:-) Seriously, let me close just by saying that you are no different than all of us who experience "trouble," some to greater degree, others to lesser. My sister lost her son in a terrible accident. But we shouldn’t let trouble cause us to throw in the towel, or blame God. Since we all experience trouble, should we blame him for all of it? Life can be quite unforgiving for the reason stated. I would only encourage you to think about your "first love," as Jesus noted (Rev. 2:4) and return to him. Yes, some do leave him but many come back, like the prodigal son. Why not reread that story and let it minister to you (Luke 15:11-31). The Father wants you to come back and be restored to your first love. Most important of all, is that the things that we suffer are not proof that God doesn't care. He demonstrated a love beyond all loves when he gave his Son to die for our sins. Since we all experience trouble, pain and suffering we can still choose to accept that love and let his grace carry us through it all. Paul had a troubling affliction and prayed for God to heal him. He didn't. But God's grace carried him and gave him strength (2 Cor. 12:9). If God didn't heal Paul, then what does that say for all of us? God's grace should be enough to get us through the storms of life. My friend, don't give up. Don't let your past guide the remaining years of your life.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

...Or he won't. See my previous items. I had given up on Christian faith and within a year I was fired from a job I wanted to leave anyway. I was fired on false pretenses because a different department wanted control of the function I did and I came with it. I wasn't part of their inner circle, however, so they made up a reason to get rid of me. Not so bad, though, because a friend of ours at a very interesting consulting firm said, "You're available!? Fantastic! I've always wanted to work with you!" I've been much happier here in the past 18 months and career prospects are much enhanced, no thanks to Christian faith.

 

[sBF] Who knows. Perhaps God was at work in your behalf :-) One last thought. Read chapter 15 of John. Christ says that apart from him we can do nothing (15:5). No one can live the Christian life without being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). It is real easy to get discouraged and fall back without the enabling (empowering) activity of the Holy Spirit. Without him, there is ho hope of living the Christian life. It is impossible to be a witness for Christ without the Holy Spirit. Only through the Spirit can we produce fruit that remains (15:16). You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you (Phil. 4:13)

[doomguarder]

I thought I would make this easier for Priapus to read. The quote function is not hard to use I promise.

 

Did I break it up correctly?

 

OK, right there. The Guidance. Never really saw that. How should I have experienced this? I mean, I can read the moral and behavioral directives in the Bible, just like any unsaved can. No special salvation dividend to be realized there.

 

[sBF]Ok, no guidance you say. The Christian, once he experiences the new birth (John 3:3), has the Holy Spirit take up residence forever. Jesus teaches that the Spirit "guides" into all truth. Whatever scripture teaches about truth, the Spirit leads the Christian to it its application, and the promise of fulfillment. Why do some not experience fulfillment. There are three reasons. 1. The person is not acting in faith, 2. he has unconfessed sin, 3. He isn't born again. There is no scriptural justification to not experience the blessing of God's promises apart from these things.

 

In 12 years as a highly motivated, dutiful Christian from 26 to 38 years old I prayed for God's guidance and I gotta tellya, I never once got anything that I didn't get before or since being a Christian. That is, I'd get good and bad advice from people around me.

 

[sBF]Someone asked for an explanation of Matt. 7:22,23. I think these two verses are very revealing. They show that many think they are doing the will of God by casting out demons, prophesying, doing miralces. But they probably included other "Christian duties like praying, reading the Bible, going to church, etc. Not one of these MAKE a Christian, even though they seem Christian-like. It's like going around "quacking like a duck" without being one. That may not be the best illustration, but you see what I mean.

 

As a Christian, you should have had that "peace that passes all understanding" (Phil 4:7), and the assurance that you are a child of God (Rom. 8:16). You should have experienced the fruit of the Spirit that is evidence of a close walk with the Lord (Gal. 5:22,23).

 

I prayed for a Godly wife to share my life and to raise a family to glorify the Lord. I found a woman and we wed. It's been a most difficult and unsatisfying marriage. We're together only because of our children. We make an effort to get along for their sake. It's friendly enough, but not much love. We nearly divorced and prayer yielded nothing. It was not until after we gave up on "God's blessing" and took matters into our own hands that things turned around and we have a more tolerable situation. Not satisfying, but tolerable. Had I not been waiting for God's guidance which never came I might not have entered into this wedding. My Christian friends and Pastor, at the time, took the "If you're asking and God's not telling you otherwise, you must be in His will. Go for it!" attitude.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

[sBF]I don't know what to tell you about this. If you did everything you say you did, and nothing happened, it's not easy to say why nothing happened. OTOH, I know of married couples who experienced similar problems but were able to work them out in Christ. Some involved pornography. But there was a total committment on both sides to give their marriage to Christ and hard work. It wasn't easy, but Christ and their marriage prevailed. In your case, neither prevailed, or should I say, prevailing. May I ask which Church you were attending?

 

The promise of Ps. 23:3 is that God is leading down the path or righteousness. As a believer, I have God's righteousness in Christ through the new birth. By following his word, God promises to instruct me in the path of righteousness which is part of the blessed life in Christ.

 

As in the previous item, this promise was unfulfilled other than the dictates provided in the text of the Bible. But again, that is available to anyone, even the unsaved. Was there some special "still, small voice" I should have heard?"God's righteousness in Christ through the new birth." Huh? This sounds a little like some justification or suggestion that I'm made better having been "born again", but this is so nebulous and abstract as to be meaningless. Initially I felt exhilarated and was full of joy and anticipation of a fabulous new life full of communion with the Living God, but that faded over the years as I learned that my life was utterly unchanged.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

[sBF] Paul tells his readers that, "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away, behold, all things are new." (2 Cor. 5:17). Did you really believe that you were a new creation in Christ? Theres' another consideration. Have you consdidered the parable of the sower? You said that you initially felt "exhilerated, full of joy and anticipation of a new life." Jesus explains about the person who receives the word (seed) and is immediatley filled with joy. No doubt, he probably experienced the other things you mention. But notice he says the man had no root and when trouble or persecution came, he fell away. This happened to some of Jesus' disciples when he taught them hard truths and they stopped following him (John 6:66). It is not uncommon for some to receive the word, experience joy, but then fall away. I'm not saying this is your case, but maybe it is. Some things happened in your life that left you with no other choice but to "drop out."

 

I'd add to that the stories of my childrens' births, both of which ended up with a week in the neonatal intensive care units. We'd prayed and had our church friends praying for us to conceive and deliver healthy babys to God's glory. The pregnancies were unremarkable and all tests indicated healthy babies. Right up to the point where my son's born and they say, "Well, Mr. Priapus, your son's not breathing and we don't know why." After measuring and testing every last bit of his little body trying to figure out what was wrong, the doctors discovered a cyst on his larynx which they were able to remove on the 5th day. My daughter was born according to plan except that her lungs didn't clear and she required antibiotics for a week. Not as scary as with her brother, but still, no coming home with our Precious Gift from Loving God for a week after delivery. What was the value of all the prayer? Where was the protection? I dunno.

 

[sBF] The tragic circumstances of your son and daughter remind me of the man who was born blind (John chap. 9). No doubt, his parents grieved over this and prayed to God for healing. How could such a loving God allow an innocent baby come into the world without sight? How could this same God let an innocent baby be born with a cyst on his larynx or one with breathing problems? The answers aren't easy. Unfortunately, we live in a "fallen world" where anything can happen to anyone, anywhere at anytime. That is the hard and painful truth. Many people don't want to hear such "pessimism." You know as well as I that the world is under the curse brought by the fall of Adam and Eve and no one is exempt from its effects. One day the creation will be set free from it (Rom. 8:20,21). Until then, the hard, painful truth is that man will experience trouble from birth to death (Job 5:7). I think the bigger question is, how will we respond to it?

 

Then there was my bicycle crash while training for a triathlon. Oh the joy I felt, glorifying God with my strength and giving thanks with each mile. That is, until I woke up in the hospital, wondering where I was and how I got there. 5 broken ribs, a collarbone and a severe concussion (busted my helmet into 3 pieces). I spent two days in the hospital way the f*ck far from home so my wife could worry. Thanks Lord. My left arm works alright, but that shoulder's never going to be the same. It was a freak crash from some odd groove in the pavement I never saw. He protected me from stumbling but I guess not losing control of my bike.

 

[sBF] Your painful experience reminds me of Christopher Reeves (Superman - what irony). He fell off his horse and was paralyzed from the neck down. This man had to move about with a stick in his mouth to control his wheel chair. Talk about trouble. I'm sure he may have had the same reactions and questions. "Where are you God? Why don't you do something?" Why did you let that happen to me?" Many people would ask the same questions. But notice how he responded. He came to accept that his circumstances may not change and he did quite well. Are you familiar with Joni Erickson? She is a Christian who likewise experienced a terrible accident that left her fully paralyzed. But you know what? She has a full time ministry from her bedside and wheel chair. She determined not to let her circumstances stop her from living for Christ.

 

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

How should I have experienced this? I had no greater sense of God's presence during my years in church, nor any diminished presence leaving. "Receipt into glory" is another of those abstractions which is (a) irrelevant to this present life and ( will not be proven or disproved as we all know Christians who've died and know nothing of their condition post-mortem. You'll say you know they're in Heaven, but that's not knowledge, it is belief. Unless you have a postcard.

[sBF] Hey! Good idea. Maybe I'll take some with me:-) Seriously, let me close just by saying that you are no different than all of us who experience "trouble," some to greater degree, others to lesser. My sister lost her son in a terrible accident. But we shouldn’t let trouble cause us to throw in the towel, or blame God. Since we all experience trouble, should we blame him for all of it? Life can be quite unforgiving for the reason stated. I would only encourage you to think about your "first love," as Jesus noted (Rev. 2:4) and return to him. Yes, some do leave him but many come back, like the prodigal son. Why not reread that story and let it minister to you (Luke 15:11-31). The Father wants you to come back and be restored to your first love. Most important of all, is that the things that we suffer are not proof that God doesn't care. He demonstrated a love beyond all loves when he gave his Son to die for our sins. Since we all experience trouble, pain and suffering we can still choose to accept that love and let his grace carry us through it all. Paul had a troubling affliction and prayed for God to heal him. He didn't. But God's grace carried him and gave him strength (2 Cor. 12:9). If God didn't heal Paul, then what does that say for all of us? God's grace should be enough to get us through the storms of life. My friend, don't give up. Don't let your past guide the remaining years of your life.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

...Or he won't. See my previous items. I had given up on Christian faith and within a year I was fired from a job I wanted to leave anyway. I was fired on false pretenses because a different department wanted control of the function I did and I came with it. I wasn't part of their inner circle, however, so they made up a reason to get rid of me. Not so bad, though, because a friend of ours at a very interesting consulting firm said, "You're available!? Fantastic! I've always wanted to work with you!" I've been much happier here in the past 18 months and career prospects are much enhanced, no thanks to Christian faith.

 

[sBF] Who knows. Perhaps God was at work in your behalf :-) One last thought. Read chapter 15 of John. Christ says that apart from him we can do nothing (15:5). No one can live the Christian life without being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). It is real easy to get discouraged and fall back without the enabling (empowering) activity of the Holy Spirit. Without him, there is ho hope of living the Christian life. It is impossible to be a witness for Christ without the Holy Spirit. Only through the Spirit can we produce fruit that remains (15:16). You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you (Phil. 4:13)

[Guest Priapus]

Thanks Doom!

 

SavedByFaith. Thanks for replying. Thing of it is, you didn't address some key elements. You provided the standard scriptural justifications like, "being patient and waiting on the Lord" kind of thing, but here's the issue:

 

You cited several Psalms which promised God's angels standing guard, God protecting his children from trouble, guidance, etc.

 

I never asked the "why do bad things happen to good people" question. I asked why, when I dutifully and faithfully prayed and believed, did I fare no better regarding trouble, (for me and my children), than when not a believer?

 

Where is the fulfillment of the promises of the Psalms? You went out of your way to show me PROMISES, not Fallen World justifications for Earthly badness, but straight up promises. IF you are faithful to Him, THEN this will happen.

 

It did not, as my examples show.

 

I'll go one better: it is written that the Lord will not subject you to more than you can bear. I heard nothing from Him for 12 years. You think with my parental-abandonment issues He'd know that was beyond my limit and he'd have done something. I mean, maybe at 11 years 11 months say something. Not a dramatic party trick, but just a little something to say, "you held on, kept faith, and I'm proud of you. You're my guy."

 

Nothing. THAT is why I am no longer a Christian.

 

 

PS. Thanks for merely suggesting, not coming right out and declaring, that I was never really a believer.

 

 

 

Edit: To answer your church question: When I first invited Jesus to be my king and saviour and the Holy Spirit to search and cleanse me I attended the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in San Francisco. Later I moved to Washington DC where I attended, and later left, a prominent evangelical Episcopal church.

[doomguarder]

Thanks Doom!

 

 

Just trying to be helpful.

[Ouroboros]

I thought I would make this easier for Priapus to read. The quote function is not hard to use I promise.

Thx DG. I gave up on responding to SBF since I can’t read his posts. They’re too messed up.

 

[sBF]Ok, no guidance you say. The Christian, once he experiences the new birth (John 3:3), has the Holy Spirit take up residence forever. Jesus teaches that the Spirit "guides" into all truth. Whatever scripture teaches about truth, the Spirit leads the Christian to it its application, and the promise of fulfillment. Why do some not experience fulfillment. There are three reasons. 1. The person is not acting in faith, 2. he has unconfessed sin, 3. He isn't born again. There is no scriptural justification to not experience the blessing of God's promises apart from these things.

The difference between an emotional feeling and an emotional feeling is that there is none. Many schizophrenic people do believe the voices are real and listen to them. Our mind is a complex machine that can fool us tremendously, and that is what is happening to you right now. You think you are a real Christian, but you’re not. No one is, and no one was, because the feelings I had were real, but the source of the feelings were false. I did experience fulfillment, and I was honest in my devotion for God. I spoke in tongues, which is considered to be an ultimate proof that the holy spirit is in a person, at least in some denominations.

 

[sBF]I don't know what to tell you about this. If you did everything you say you did, and nothing happened, it's not easy to say why nothing happened. OTOH, I know of married couples who experienced similar problems but were able to work them out in Christ. Some involved pornography. But there was a total committment on both sides to give their marriage to Christ and hard work. It wasn't easy, but Christ and their marriage prevailed. In your case, neither prevailed, or should I say, prevailing. May I ask which Church you were attending?

You don’t see it do you? A couple is two people, and both are working on their marriage. The marriages that fail are the ones where only one of the parties work on saving it, and the other is lethargic and won’t. That is the relationship with an imaginary friend, you will be the one working on it, and the other is just a fantasy characters that never will do anything real

 

[sBF] The tragic circumstances of your son and daughter remind me of the man who was born blind (John chap. 9). No doubt, his parents grieved over this and prayed to God for healing. How could such a loving God allow an innocent baby come into the world without sight? How could this same God let an innocent baby be born with a cyst on his larynx or one with breathing problems? The answers aren't easy. Unfortunately, we live in a "fallen world" where anything can happen to anyone, anywhere at anytime. That is the hard and painful truth. Many people don't want to hear such "pessimism." You know as well as I that the world is under the curse brought by the fall of Adam and Eve and no one is exempt from its effects. One day the creation will be set free from it (Rom. 8:20,21). Until then, the hard, painful truth is that man will experience trouble from birth to death (Job 5:7). I think the bigger question is, how will we respond to it?

By being mature, and grow out of imaginary friends. They just don’t exist, and can’t solve your problems. So you need to become an adult taking your own personal responsibility for you and others life, instead of showing it off to some fantasy character.

[Ouroboros]

(snip)

 

[sBF] Who knows. Perhaps God was at work in your behalf :-) One last thought. Read chapter 15 of John. Christ says that apart from him we can do nothing (15:5). No one can live the Christian life without being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). It is real easy to get discouraged and fall back without the enabling (empowering) activity of the Holy Spirit. Without him, there is ho hope of living the Christian life. It is impossible to be a witness for Christ without the Holy Spirit. Only through the Spirit can we produce fruit that remains (15:16). You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you (Phil. 4:13)

You’re not a true Christian my friend. Because you believe and argue the way I used to, which means you’re nothing more than I was, and since according to you I never was a Christian, that means you are not either.

[Guest Priapus]

Ok, no guidance you say. The Christian, once he experiences the new birth (John 3:3), has the Holy Spirit take up residence forever. Jesus teaches that the Spirit "guides" into all truth. Whatever scripture teaches about truth, the Spirit leads the Christian to it its application, and the promise of fulfillment. Why do some not experience fulfillment. There are three reasons. 1. The person is not acting in faith, 2. he has unconfessed sin, 3. He isn't born again. There is no scriptural justification to not experience the blessing of God's promises apart from these things.

 

 

1. The person is not acting in faith : Were I professing faith to win the heart of some pretty Christian girl I could see this possibility. Likewise if I was doign it to appease my nagging parents or perhaps to convince a Judge not to send me to County Jail, sure. By "not acting in faith" do you mean, acting under false pretenses?

 

2. he has unconfessed sin: Brother, I was confessing stuff I wasn't even sure I'd done. No, this was not the case.

 

3. He isn't born again: What is the objective criteria by which one can know if he is or is not born again?

 

 

Here's a list of how I operated, tell me where I slipped up:

 

1. Confessed Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection;

2. Witnessed this to friends and family;

3. Asked Jesus to intercede in my behalf before God;

4. Made a sincere confession to God of his sin and inability to redeem myself;

5. Regularly confessed sin, publically and privately, and asked God for forgiveness;

6. Regularly studied the bible individually and with a group of believers;

7. Sheds all aspects of my life which are contrary to scripture (ie. drunkenness, sexual immorality, lashing out in anger or otherwise not forgiving others);

8. Regularly attended church which is faithful to the Gospels;

9. Tithed to the church and supports charitable causes with money, time, etc.;

10. Prayed to God asking for guidance in all decisions;

11. Prayed to God asking for peace and comfort in time of trouble;

12. Prayed to God on behalf of others for their peace, guidance, and comfort.

 

 

Surely I dropped the ball somewhere to have been denied God's Sweet Blessing. TELL!

[Savedbyfaith]

I thought I would make this easier for Priapus to read. The quote function is not hard to use I promise.

 

[sBF] Thank you doomquarder. I'm having a terrible time understanding how you do this. Thanks again.

[Savedbyfaith]

You’re not a true Christian my friend. Because you believe and argue the way I used to, which means you’re nothing more than I was, and since according to you I never was a Christian, that means you are not either.

 

[sBF] So you used to share with people who said they were Christians and left the faith.

You then end up llike them, blaspheming the name of Christ. I'll tell you what. If I ever apostacize from the faith, as you have, I will let you know. But don't hold your breath :-)

[doomguarder]

Now they are not working right for me. hehehehe

[Ouroboros]

[sBF] So you used to share with people who said they were Christians and left the faith.

You then end up llike them, blaspheming the name of Christ.  I'll tell you what. If I ever apostacize from the faith, as you have, I will let you know.  But don't hold your breath :-)

Which you're doing right now, and you'll end up like me.

 

Boy, you're so far out blinded by your faith. You judged me, even though Jesus told you not to judge people. The benefit I have is that I can judge you without feeling gilt or breaking any biblical commands, since I don't believe in them anymore. But you, you shouldn't break you own guidebook.

 

You don't know why, when, how or what my life was or is, still you assume that I left faith because of discussions with not believers. You have no fucking clue, and yet you make an assumption that I wasn’t Christian, that I left because I got infected by other apostates etc, etc. You don’t know anything!

 

For being a Christian, you are the most presumptions, obnoxious, ignorant and arrogant I have ever met.

 

Right now, you’re only trying to save the little faith you have left by breathlessly grasping for Biblical quotes in the hope that a few might convince us that you have something new to give to us. But you don’t. You have nothing new to give!

 

I read the Bible. I have 20 copies, in 10 different translations. I read the whole Bible multiple times. I went to Bible school. I went on mission trips to foreign countries. I was speaking and singing in tongues, praying for sick, casting out demons, tithing and evangelizing the streets and knocking doors! My whole frigging family is Christian, and has been since all known generations back.

 

I know what you’re going to say as response to this. But you know what, you’re not worth my time anymore.

[crazy-tiger]

SBF... in this post http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2693&st=0 you have one too many quote-opener tags...

 

If you remove one, (the one with the name in might be an idea, since that one seems to be the one tripping you up) then you'll get this...

You’re not a true Christian my friend. Because you believe and argue the way I used to, which means you’re nothing more than I was, and since according to you I never was a Christian, that means you are not either.

[Savedbyfaith]

1. The person is not acting in faith : Were I professing faith to win the heart of some pretty Christian girl I could see this possibility. Likewise if I was doign it to appease my nagging parents or perhaps to convince a Judge not to send me to County Jail, sure. By "not acting in faith" do you mean, acting under false pretenses?

 

[sBF] No, not accepting and applying the promises of God and acting in obedience to the word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). It is applying the word of God to the circumstances of your life believing that what God said is true. But it all begins with "saving faith," that heart bound belief that Jesus is our God/Messiah who died for our sins and rose from the dead to save us from them.

 

2. he has unconfessed sin: Brother, I was confessing stuff I wasn't even sure I'd done. No, this was not the case.

 

[sBF] OK, that is scriptural. But I don't think the Christian has to confess sins that he isn't sure he has committed. The blood of Christ cleanses of "all" unrighteousness when confession of known sin is made (1 John 1:9). Hey, thanks for calling me "brother." Are you making a statement

 

3. He isn't born again: What is the objective criteria by which one can know if he is or is not born again?

Here's a list of how I operated, tell me where I slipped up:

 

1. Confessed Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection;

2. Witnessed this to friends and family;

3. Asked Jesus to intercede in my behalf before God;

4. Made a sincere confession to God of his sin and inability to redeem myself;

 

[sBF] His sin? I'm sure you ment "my" sin.

 

5. Regularly confessed sin, publically and privately, and asked God for forgiveness;

6. Regularly studied the bible individually and with a group of believers;

7. Sheds all aspects of my life which are contrary to scripture (ie. drunkenness, sexual immorality, lashing out in anger or otherwise not forgiving others);

8. Regularly attended church which is faithful to the Gospels;

9. Tithed to the church and supports charitable causes with money, time, etc.;

10. Prayed to God asking for guidance in all decisions;

11. Prayed to God asking for peace and comfort in time of trouble;

12. Prayed to God on behalf of others for their peace, guidance, and comfort.

Surely I dropped the ball somewhere to have been denied God's Sweet Blessing. TELL!

 

[sBF] That's a very impressive list. I'm not sure I can explain this conundrum. As I write, I am asking the Holy Spirit to help me. You're saying all the right things and now you totally reject it all. That is baffling!!!!! This sounds like what the Bible calls apostasy, where a person deliberately and completely abandons the Chritian faith, never really having possessed it. You will probably disagree with that, but that is the definition of it. This must so because it is impossible for Jesus to lose any the Father gives him (John 6:39). Judas is a good example f apostasy. He was one of the Twelve, taught under Jesus and traveled with him. Yet he totally rejected Christ.

 

Perhaps your circumstances can be found in Heb. 6:4-6. There are differing views about these difficult verses, but they come down to four: 1) They speak of a Christian losing his salvation. 2) It is possible to come close to salvation but not achieve it. 3) It's hypothetical - If it were possible to lose salvation, it is impossible to be saved again. 4) The warning is given to Christians who can fall away to the extent that they are disqualified for service in the kingdom. It is possible to fall from "empowering" grace, but not "saving" grace. They are not lost, but they are useless. They will be judged accordingly by Christ at the judgment seat (1 Cor. 3:10-15). In my view, 2-4 all have truth.

 

Maybe you're really saved and have only lost your confidence (Heb. 10:35). Wouldn't that be a trip? But it is your vigorous denial of Christ that is quite notable. It's almost as though you are using it, along with the things above, to convince true believers that their faith isn't real either. If that is the case, then you have clearly apostasized. Apostasy is gradual. It begins with unbelief, then to disobedience, ending up in apostasy.

 

Why not study the parable of the sower of seed. (Matt. 13:18-30). Perhaps these verses will speak to you. Most commentaries I've read suggest that the first three "soils" (representative of man's heart) never experienced the new birth; came close you might say, but never really there.

 

I hope you understand that I am in no what trying to be critical of judgmental. I really would like to get to the bottom of this.

 

Where did you attend church? What was your denomination?

[Savedbyfaith]

SBF... in this post http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2693&st=0 you have one too many quote-opener tags...

 

[sBF] Thanks for telling me what I'm doing wrong, but I'm waiting for someone to tell me what I need to do step by step. Am I supposed to use the quote and code tabs? One person told me to put

before and after the quotes of others. I did that, but iit doesn't seem to be right.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I never asked the "why do bad things happen to good people" question.  I asked why, when I dutifully and faithfully prayed and believed, did I fare no better regarding trouble, (for me and my children), than when not a believer?

 

Where is the fulfillment of the promises of the Psalms? You went out of your way to show me PROMISES, not Fallen World justifications for Earthly badness, but straight up promises. IF you are faithful to Him, THEN this will happen.

 

It did not, as my examples show.

 

I'll go one better: it is written that the Lord will not subject you to more than you can bear. I heard nothing from Him for 12 years. You think with my parental-abandonment issues He'd know that was beyond my limit and he'd have done something. I mean, maybe at 11 years 11 months say something. Not a dramatic party trick, but just a little something to say, "you held on, kept faith, and I'm proud of you. You're my guy."

 

Nothing. THAT is why I am no longer a Christian.

PS. Thanks for merely suggesting, not coming right out and declaring, that I was never really a believer.

Edit: To answer your church question: When I first invited Jesus to be my king and saviour and the Holy Spirit to search and cleanse me I attended the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in San Francisco. Later I moved to Washington DC where I attended, and later left, a prominent evangelical Episcopal church.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*WINCE*

 

OK, now I KNOW I made the right decision signing up here. Priapus, I went through the exact same thing regarding unanswered prayer, I felt the same pain, and I left for the same reasons. In my case, it was twenty years instead of twelve--ages 3-23. That's two walking, talking examples that Prayer Don't Work No Matter What They Say. Actually, I'm guessing there are a lot of us....

[Savedbyfaith]

Which you're doing right now, and you'll end up like me.

 

Boy, you're so far out blinded by your faith. You judged me, even though Jesus told you not to judge people.

 

[sBF] Wrong again. I have repeatedly shown you and others that it is not possbile to lose your Christianity based on John 6:39. That is not judging you. It's called trying to educate you.

 

You have no fucking clue,

 

[sBF] You're history......

[Mythra]

I sure do hope you don't stop posting here, savedbyfear. You are the best reassurance we've had in months that leaving christianity was the right thing to do.

[crazy-tiger]

[sBF] Thanks for telling me what I'm doing wrong, but I'm waiting for someone to tell me what I need to do step by step. Am I supposed to use the quote and code tabs? One person told me to put

before and after the quotes of others. I did that, but iit doesn't seem to be right.

 

 

You've almost got it... but you need to add a / in the close tag.

Just make sure you keep them equal... if you have more (or less)

than

, it all buggers up.

 

Also make sure you have no more than 10

codes in a post, or again, it'll all go to pot.

[Skankboy]

a·pos·ta·sy    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (-pst-s)

n. pl. a·pos·ta·sies

Abandonment of one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English apostasie, from Old French, from Late Latin apostasia, defection, from Late Greek apostasi, from Greek apostasis, revolt, from aphistanai, aposta-, to revolt  : apo-, apo- + histanai, to stand, place; see st- in Indo-European Roots.]

 

Funny...I don't see anything in here about never having REALLY been a member. The root meaning of "defection" certianly implies someone who once WAS and now ISN'T.

 

I know you're baffled SBF, but you're going to have to accept that we are EX-CHRISTIANS. Meaning we WERE christians and NOW we AREN'T.

 

CT has been desparately and patiently trying to make you understand that SBF. Listen to him. Most have us used to be you SBF. We fought just as hard and believed just as much as you seem to. But now we don't anymore. I know that contradicts a verse in the bible, which for you, right now, seems impossible.

 

I only hope that you are able to reconcile these opposing views without having to resort to, essentially, calling us liars.

 

[Mythra]

I love, SBF, how you conveniently skip over the verse from Corinthians that I showed above that NO ONE can say "JESUS IS LORD" without the HOLY SPIRIT. 

 

There are the same if not more "loss of salvation"verses than OSAS support scriptures yet you just keep picking the ones that make up your beliefs.  You are a typical salad bar Christian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This guy does that a lot, thankful. Anything that he can't answer with a scripture from christianity 101 he just ignores. He hopes no one will notice. We do.

 

I think it's because he isn't a true christian. I can tell when someone is faking it.

[Ouroboros]

SBF... in this post http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2693&st=0 you have one too many quote-opener tags...

 

[sBF] Thanks for telling me what I'm doing wrong, but I'm waiting for someone to tell me what I need to do step by step. Am I supposed to use the quote and code tabs? One person told me to put [ quote ] before and after the quotes of others. I did that, but iit doesn't seem to be right.

You start a quote with:

Left-Square-Bracket "[", text: "QUOTE", Right-Square-Bracket "]"

 

And you end the quote with:

Left-Square-Bracket "[", Forward-Slash "/", text "QUOTE", Right-Square-Bracket "]"

 

like this: [ quote ] the text to be quoted [ / quote ]

 

(but no spaces like I did there to show you)

[Ouroboros]

Which you're doing right now, and you'll end up like me.

 

Boy, you're so far out blinded by your faith. You judged me, even though Jesus told you not to judge people.

 

[sBF] Wrong again. I have repeatedly shown you and others that it is not possbile to lose your Christianity based on John 6:39. That is not judging you. It's called trying to educate you.

 

You have no fucking clue,

 

[sBF] You're history......

 

You did judge me. You said I lost my faith because I talked to other apostates. And that is not true. So you did make a judgment against your knowledge.

 

You not only cherrypick you Bible verses, you cherry pick what you read in our responses, and how you argue against them. It's called strawmen arguments.

 

You really don't get it when we say that "evidence" from the Bible doesn't convince us anymore. You think we will see the words from the Bible and fall flat on our faces and shout "OH SBF, YOU'RE RIGHT, I NEVER READ THAT VERSE, FORGIVE ME GOD!". But it doesn't work that way. We went through that phase years ago, and are way past it.

[Ouroboros]

I sure do hope you don't stop posting here, savedbyfear.  You are the best reassurance we've had in months that leaving christianity was the right thing to do.

[Sensitive_Flower]

Wrong again.  I have repeatedly shown you and others that it is not possbile to lose your Christianity based on John 6:39.  That is not judging you.  It's called trying to educate you.   

 

Savedbyfaith, Although you point out that according to John 6:39 it is not possible to lose your Christianity, Thankful has started a thread successfully answering that question here http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2660. A link has also been posted from a Christian source reputing OSAS by TK421. Ex-Christians, Atheists, Agnostics and others are using the bible that they personally do not believe in to show you - a Christian, what it says on this matter. Doesn’t this tell you that it’s not ex-Christians that need to be educated but yourself? Everyone knows what John 6:39 says but can you acknowledge what all these other passages say that contradict this?

 

Matthew 24:13,24,25 ; Luke 8:5-8,11-15 ; 12:45,46 ; 14:34,35 ; 15:13,21,24 ; 22:31,32 ; John 15:1,2,6. Romans 11:17-22 ; 1 Corinthians 3:16,17 ; 9:27 ; 10:1-12 ; 11:31,32 ; 15:1,2 ; Galatians 5:4,7 Philippians 2:12,13 ; Colossians 1:22,23 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:3. 1 Timothy 1:5-7 ; 3:6,7 ; 4:1 ; 5:12,15 ; 6:10,20,21. 2 Timothy 2:15,17,18 ; 3:14,15 ; 4:3,4 Hebrews 2:1-3 ; 3:12-14,18 ; 4:1,11-13 ; 6:4-6 ; 10:26,29,38 ; 12:15-17 ; and James 1:14,15 ; 5:19,20. 1 Peter 1:9 ; 2 Peter 1:10 ; 2:15,16,20,21 ; 3:17,18. 1 John 2:24,25,28 ; Revelation 2:5,10,11 ; 3:1-5,16 ; and 22:19.

 

If you cannot acknowledge what the above scripture says then I question whether you are a true Christian. A true Christian would take into account the bible in its entirity, not just the bits that they like the sound of.

[Ouroboros]

This guy does that a lot, thankful.  Anything that he can't answer with a scripture from christianity 101 he just ignores.  He hopes no one will notice.  We do.

 

I think it's because he isn't a true christian.  I can tell when someone is faking it.

I totally agree. This guy is not a true Christian. I spent 30 years with Holy Ghost filled Christians that actually were more sympathetic and loving than this person.

 

I have never met such an arrogant attitude, except for people that doesn't have it right with Jesus and need some kind of approval from other people by converting them to the same delusion. So, no, I don’t think he’s a true Christian.