PRIAPUS

[Checkmate]

So...We're all in agreement that our god is Chocolate?

 

Out-fucking-standing! When's the next worship service?!? I don't want to miss anything.

[Ouroboros]

I know you're baffled SBF, but you're going to have to accept that we are EX-CHRISTIANS.  Meaning we WERE christians and NOW we AREN'T.

 

[sBF] Well, we will just have to disagree. As I have asked so many others in these forums, if you can lose your salvation (Christianity), then how do you explain John 6:39 where Jesus says that he lost none of all that the Father gave him. If the Father gave you to Jesus for eternal life, then either Jesus lied or you were not a Christian.

Please share with me your thoughts about this. Thanks

 

Joh 6:39  And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day.

 

1. Who gives

 

John 6:39 is talking about THINGS that GOD GAVE JESUS. But You gave your life to Jesus, not God.

 

When you got saved, or born again, you gave your life to Jesus, right?

 

So that means that he can loose you as much as he wants, because it was YOU who gave your life to Jesus, you didn't give your life to the Father that later gave it to Jesus.

 

So the people that gave their life to God and NOT Jesus, so God the Father could later give it to Jesus, they are NOT lost by Jesus. So I guess you're right I was never a true Christian, because I gave my life to Jesus! I hope for your sake you didn't.

 

2. What is given

The verse talks about "anything" in a sense of things and not people, so it could be marbles, dead frogs or the latest Opeth CD he's talking about.

 

3. Raise to life

And lastely, the THINGS that Jesus are GIVEN by the FATHER and not by US, are dead in present tense in the verse, it has no life, and will be given life in the last day! So if he talks about people, that means that no one is born-again until the end times, because they're dead right now.

[Skankboy]

Well, we will just have to disagree. As I have asked so many others in these forums, if you can lose your salvation (Christianity), then how do you explain John 6:39 where Jesus says that he lost none of all that the Father gave him. If the Father gave you to Jesus for eternal life, then either Jesus lied or you were not a Christian.

Please share with me your thoughts about this. Thanks

 

SBF,

 

You set up an either/or situation where there isn't one. That's the problem when you are forced to only deal in absolutes. The question might not even be "did jesus lie", it could just as easily be "did the writers of the bible lie" or even more generously, they have misenterpreted his words (it certainly wouldn't have been the first time someone was misquoted). Other possiblities include: he never existed and all the words attributed to him are fiction (personally, I believe he may have existed, though I know we would disagree on just about everything else about him), he was wrong, and yes, the possibility that we weren't "real" christians.

 

But it seems to me that the only way you can tell a "real" christian from one who isn't, is based on whether or not they left the religion. Are we to assume that everyone who calls themselves a christian is a true christian until proven otherwise?

 

You've heard people's testimonies here, can you deny that they seem to have had an equal if not stronger experience of being "filled with the holy spirit" than you? By what standard would you make such a judgement? Because they left? If the only difference between us and you is that we left, is not your status of a "true" christian only conditional on the fact that you happen to still be one?

 

You can continue to say "well, we disagree" but I your insistence on this all or nothing approach is not going to get you anywhere. Certainly not any closer to the truth you so obviously seek.

 

[Ouroboros]

That verse was shown to be a late insertion by the ones who wanted to remove the fun of having a fruit and nut bar.I'm ok with that... just as long as I don't have to eat their damned chocolate.

If I do, and then renounce it in the name of the God Diet, will I still be saved?

"I'm not a true believe of Choco anymore, I'm a Dietist instead, after I went to the Dentist."

 

NOT!

 

I love chocolate! I'm having the cravings right now!

[Ouroboros]

[sBF] Well, we will just have to disagree.  As I have asked so many others in these forums, if you can lose your salvation (Christianity), then how do you explain John 6:39 where Jesus says that he lost none of all that the Father gave him.  If the Father gave you to Jesus for eternal life, then either Jesus lied or you were not a Christian.

Please share with me your thoughts about this.  Thanks

Jesus never existed, because he is an invented character with sayings compiled from other sources. So Jesus didn't lie, becuase Jesus never opened his mouth, his mouth never existed.

 

Secondly, if Jesus never existed, no one is a true Christian ever. Not even you. So you're not going to be lost by Jesus, since there is no Jesus to loose you, and nothing that you have to be lost.

[Mythra]

[sBF]  Sorry bout that, but I have to try and keep up with many of you.  You don't need to be rude with snide comments like I need to be told more than once.  This is what I mean when I talk about decency.  I'm 70 and am not as sharp as you younger folks, so cut us some slack, Ok?  Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

savedbyfear: YOU'RE 70? Damn. Sorry I cussed you out on another thread. I could care less about christians, but I do still respect my elders.

 

But, I thought we were supposed to get wiser as we got older.

 

Ah, what do I know. I'm just a whipper-snapper.

[Ouroboros]

Who's us?

 

My 80 yo grandparents are OSAS'er's too, but they do not know of my departure from the faith.  I just can't tell them.  They're in horrible health and my grandmother is a worrier enough as it is, let alone having her worry about me going to a place that doesn't exist; hell. 

 

SBF.. Just because you're older doesn't make you automatically worthy of our respect.  You are coming on here making these comments and not thinking before you write.  Do you really believe, that for one second, any of us with children would want our children to burn in hell?  I know I don't, am I worried?  Not in the least, I would never believe a book that defines god as a hideous and monstrous creature that would burn people for eternity.  Think about that, will you?

And we didn't come to his door and knocked to try to convert him, and we didn't put flyers on his car, or interrupted his dinner at the restaurant to preach to him, or send mailers or spammed his email box.

 

He made a choice to come here to tell us how wrong we are! Then age is not a defense, since he has enough strength to get on a computer and argue against our opinions. He's welcome to do so, but he has to know that he has to take the heat! This is the milieu, and when you play in the lion pit, you have to accept the lions will nip your but.

 

So what’s eating you SBF? Why do you argue so intensely for your faith? Are you worried you might be wrong after all? Or are you here to convert us? If the first, please stay and continue, but if the latter, please don’t, you’ll create animosity instead of sympathy.

[crazy-tiger]

So...We're all in agreement that our god is Chocolate?

 

Out-fucking-standing!  When's the next worship service?!?  I don't want to miss anything. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You worship whenever you feel like it...

 

I'm worshiping right now. Chocolate vodka... divine.

[Vigile]

Which you're doing right now, and you'll end up like me.

 

Boy, you're so far out blinded by your faith. You judged me, even though Jesus told you not to judge people.

 

[sBF] Wrong again. I have repeatedly shown you and others that it is not possbile to lose your Christianity based on John 6:39. That is not judging you. It's called trying to educate you.

 

You have no fucking clue,

 

[sBF] You're history......

 

 

OMG! You are so full of yourself dude. Before you whip out scripture you first have to explain to us why it has authority. Before you "educate" us, you first have to establish scriptural authority.

 

What a fucking test. If you were talking to another christian you would never challenge his/her faith if they met half the criteria mentioned here. What a hypocrite. You just need us to have never been "saved" because that would take away from your life's dedication. You are a sad, sad human being and I have nothing but pity for you. No, I have nothing but disgust for you. I can't empathize. I can think of no time in my life that I was as closed minded and judgmental as you. You choose your course. You choose to waste your one and only life with this shit. You made your bed and you are the one who chooses to close your mind to legitimate logic. You astound me.

 

I personally will not bear my soul to you the way others here have. You are swine and I will take the advice of your supposed lord and not cast pearls before you. You weren't with any of us in our prayer closets. You don't know what some of us went through. Have you gone through even a fraction of what Hans went through? Do you know that he maintained his faith in spite of the fact that no one heard his prayers. You want the truth? Yes, we were once gullible like you. Here's one. We are all smarter than you because we finally figured it out and walked away. You are right. We were never saved. There is nothing to be saved from. Here's a hint. You aren't saved either.

 

Edit: I just read that you are 70. I had to remove a stupid icon that shows no respect for you as an elder. I apologize if you read this before I removed it. I usually don't reply this way, but something about your statement just pushed some buttons. Perhaps that's why I'm on this website - to deal with issues that have been brewing for too long.

[Vigile]

SBF... Mythra wrote this for someone else but I'm going to give it to you, IN HOPES that you will see things from our perspective.  IF you're honest, you'll see why we do not believe the bible anymore than any other religion.........

 

Here you are, please fill in the blanks with the same answer....

 

Saved By Faith: I don't believe Islam is true because ____________________(fill in blank)

 

EQUALS =

 

Ex-C: I don't believe christianism is true ____________________ (essentially same answer as stated above)

 

 

Brilliant.

 

Kudos Mythra

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I know you're baffled SBF, but you're going to have to accept that we are EX-CHRISTIANS. Meaning we WERE christians and NOW we AREN'T.

 

[sBF] Well, we will just have to disagree. As I have asked so many others in these forums, if you can lose your salvation (Christianity), then how do you explain John 6:39 where Jesus says that he lost none of all that the Father gave him. If the Father gave you to Jesus for eternal life, then either Jesus lied or you were not a Christian.

Please share with me your thoughts about this. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Technically, Jesus didn't lie. His fan club did. They're the ones that wrote your holy book, not him.

 

I WAS a Christian, no matter what you (who have never met any of us, hello?) say. I was an innocent CHILD who loved Jesus and trusted God. I was so devout that I "turned the other cheek" to the point where I literally bled. I honored and obeyed a mother who was an evil psycho bitch, and tried to be the perfect kid, because the Bible said I was supposed to. I had faith. I had so MUCH faith, in fact, that I believed the idiot priest who told me prayer would sustain, heal and protect me during my abuse. (That, I realize now, was a cop-out, so he didn't have to deal with calling CPS on Mommie Dearest. If I ever get that lazy, collar-wearing kidfucker's name and home address....) It was CRAP. In my darkest hour, in my time of need, Jesus was not with me. No one was with me. EVER. No comfort, no relief, no support, no nothing. Nor any "happy coincidences" that somehow improved my circumstances, for that matter.

 

I am still healing from that horrible feeling of betrayal. It's like recovering from the "tender mercies" of a THIRD abusive/neglectful parent. It can make me start sobbing and shaking uncontrollably even now if I think about it too much. And I'm even more upset to think that kids just like I was are out there, right now, weeping and pleading with your indifferent God nightly to ease their suffering and end their abuse, instead of getting real help.

 

Now, lay aside the Babble for just a moment and think with your head and heart, if you can. How can you possibly say that someone THAT DEVOUT, who started as an innocent child, hung on under fire and without succoor for decades and left only with much pain, anguish and desperate prayer, was not a true Christian? WHERE is the logic in saying that? Certainly, where is the COMPASSION AND CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS in saying that?

 

We are walking, talking and in some cases still-suffering proof that your holy book, which was written, translated and retranslated by fallible HUMANS, is as wrong as it could possibly be on that point. We believed. Your religion and your God failed US, repeatedly, until we could no longer stand it. You have NO right to smugly spit out the same biblical platitudes at us over and over again in an attempt to invalidate our experiences.

[Guest Priapus]

Testify, Becca! Testify!

 

 

Thank you for sharing this painful history with us. I, for one, am glad you survived mom's abuse and God's neglect to join us here.

[Mythra]

We are walking, talking and in some cases still-suffering proof that your holy book, which was written, translated and retranslated by fallible HUMANS, is as wrong as it could possibly be on that point. We believed. Your religion and your God failed US, repeatedly, until we could no longer stand it. You have NO right to smugly spit out the same biblical platitudes at us over and over again in an attempt to invalidate our experiences.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi Becca. I think we have the dude backed into a corner at this point. He's either gotta issue an indictment against his savior, or keep regurgitating John 6:39.

 

You GOTTA know what his choice will be.

 

But that was a good post, regardless.

[Ouroboros]

Becca... wow... good post...

 

I'm glad you got out in one piece and that you have grown up in maturity and can see through the crap of religion.

 

It's good to have you here.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Testify, Becca! Testify!

Thank you for sharing this painful history with us. I, for one, am glad you survived mom's abuse and God's neglect to join us here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks. It was work. Still is, really. You have no idea how many insults, cuss words and foaming-at-the-mouth-with-rage sheer RANTAGE I had to cut out of the first draft of that post....fleh. The recipient of said lecture likely thinks I'm Satan's Own regardless, but you guys didn't need to see it.

[Vigile]

You have NO right to smugly spit out the same biblical platitudes at us over and over again in an attempt to invalidate our experiences.

 

Beccas,

 

I was feeling bad about going of on SBF tonight but I just realized after reading this line of yours what button he pushed. I agree. He has no right, 70 years old or not, to invalidate our experiences. I spent 23-25 years in that hell and I have a right to have it validated whether or not it was based on reality or not god damn it.

[Guest Priapus]

Hi Becca.  I think we have the dude backed into a corner at this point.  He's either gotta issue an indictment against his savior, or keep regurgitating John 6:39.

 

You GOTTA know what his choice will be. 

 

But that was a good post, regardless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I dunno, I think he'll resort to the "Fallen World" red-herring as he did with me. You know, Bad Things happen to innocent children for God's Mysterious Purpose. Satan will sift ye like wheat and the Jobian Torments.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Hi Becca.  I think we have the dude backed into a corner at this point.  He's either gotta issue an indictment against his savior, or keep regurgitating John 6:39.

 

You GOTTA know what his choice will be. 

 

But that was a good post, regardless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I know....

 

 

"*squawk whistle* John 6:39! Bled for Jesus? Still managed to honor and obey your abuser just cause God said so? Never got a single prayer answered? Who cares! *awrk!* John 6:39! You left, so you were never Christian! *rattles beak, eats some sunflower seeds* John 6:39! The Bible says it, so I believe it! *squawk-wingflap* Oh gee, you must be red-faced and sobbing because you're feeling so GUILTY that you left the One True Faith! *whistle* John 6:39! *clambers around upside down from wire roof of cage* We should pray together now! *awrk!*"

 

 

...actually, the parrot analogy doesn't work because it makes him look cuter and more charming than he is....

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Beccas,

 

I was feeling bad about going of on SBF tonight but I just realized after reading this line of yours what button he pushed.  I agree.  He has no right, 70 years old or not, to invalidate our experiences.  I spent 23-25 years in that hell and I have a right to have it validated whether or not it was based on reality or not god damn it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that's the thing. SBF isn't that horrible, but THAT point...no. NO, no no no NO. When someone leaves an abusive relationship, be it with a religion, a mother, a spouse or what have you, you do NOT flap your mouth invalidating their suffering. I don't care HOW desperate you are to revalidate YOUR faith to yourself in the face of such uncomfortable truths.

[crazy-tiger]

Yeah, I know....

"*squawk whistle* John 6:39! Bled for Jesus? Still managed to honor and obey your abuser just cause God said so? Never got a single prayer answered? Who cares! *awrk!* John 6:39! You left, so you were never Christian! *rattles beak, eats some sunflower seeds* John 6:39! The Bible says it, so I believe it! *squawk-wingflap* Oh gee, you must be red-faced and sobbing because you're feeling so GUILTY that you left the One True Faith! *whistle* John 6:39!  *clambers around upside down from wire roof of cage* We should pray together now! *awrk!*"

...actually, the parrot analogy doesn't work because it makes him look cuter and more charming than he is....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe so... but you gotta admit it sounds so much like him.

[Sensitive_Flower]

Beccas Im sorry you went through that. I went through similar so can greatly relate.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I dunno, I think he'll resort to the "Fallen World" red-herring as he did with me. You know, Bad Things happen to innocent children for God's Mysterious Purpose. Satan will sift ye like wheat and the Jobian Torments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Feh. I've gotten that before. I've gotten a LOT of stupid excuses from Christians on this issue. Including them saying that God DID answer my prayers, but I was too blind to see the results. Shyeahright.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Beccas Im sorry you went through that.  I went through similar so can greatly relate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks. I both hate and am relieved at the fact that there are others out there whose faith "starved to death" in such a fashion.

 

I think I'll be starting a topic somewhere on here on the whole "still recovering emotionally" thing. Though I doubt I'll put it in this forum, because I've found that the insensitive bleatings of apologists can literally trigger an anxiety attack in me if I have to deal with it too much.

[Sensitive_Flower]

Thanks. I both hate and am relieved at the fact that there are others out there whose faith "starved to death" in such a fashion.

 

I think I'll be starting a topic somewhere on here on the whole "still recovering emotionally" thing. Though I doubt I'll put it in this forum, because I've found that the insensitive bleatings of apologists can literally trigger an anxiety attack in me if I have to deal with it too much.

 

I really hate to sound like Im repeating myself inanely but I relate to everything you just said here. Sometimes I wonder about the insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed. I fear I may be joining you on your thread if you choose to start one. You’re an inspiration for sharing your story. Thank you.

[Mythra]

I think I'll be starting a topic somewhere on here on the whole "still recovering emotionally" thing. Though I doubt I'll put it in this forum, because I've found that the insensitive bleatings of apologists can literally trigger an anxiety attack in me if I have to deal with it too much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Becca - if you decide to post, put it maybe in the "ex-christian life" section. If christian spew-meisters show up there, we'll take care of em for ya.