SWIM Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Hey folks! I found this youtube that explains very clearly why there can not be a place like that. I put it here in the den so maybe some of our resident brain-dead xtains can babble about it. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 A god who is so obsessed with metering out punishment is truly one NOT to be trusted! If I was still a christian I would see GOOD reason to continue living in fear for the rest of my days!! Christians too may very well end up in hell!! Thanks for the link Swim! To those struggling with this mythical belief do realise it is VERY hard to shake years of FEAR indoctrination! This hell invention is the "glue" that still keeps fundie christianity alive!! Do also realise it is hard to prove something that does not exist! That is why I tackled other more easier areas in the bible first that proved the bible COULD NOT be god's word! The rest (like this hell mythology) will then become much clearer and hell will be seen for what it is ... bullshit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 /clap /cheer /dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Indeed! It is an irrational and infinitely sadistic punishment. If any other god did that, Christians would be horrified about it, scream for the religion to be abolished yet when it comes to their own god, they sing praise hymns about him. That's seriously out of wack! Hell is one of the most horrific inventions of humanity in my opinion. If a sadistic killer even tortured a woman a fraction of what God will be about to do to all of humanity, he would have gone to prison or be on death row. Yet they call God a moral and perfect being? What sort of justice is that and what logic did that take for them swallow that?! Hell is a repugnant doctrine and I for one, totally and utterly reject it! Because nobody deserves to live in fear of an imaginary doctrine dreamed up by a dictatorial imaginary god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I like it. Very clean & informative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Very informative and concise video. I liked it much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Not only well put together with engaging visuals....narration is a lovely smooth british accented voice with warm tones. Nice. Subscribed. Will view his other vids later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Great link. That guy has come to a lot of the conclusions I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hey folks! I found this youtube that explains very clearly why there can not be a place like that. I put it here in the den so maybe some of our resident brain-dead xtains can babble about it. Enjoy! I think it is really rather simple... parents discipline and / or punish their children in order to teach them, and / or protect them from danger... NOT TO DESTROY THEM. Would or COULD God be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I think it is really rather simple... parents discipline and / or punish their children in order to teach them, and / or protect them from danger... NOT TO DESTROY THEM. Would or COULD God be any different? Parents don't eternally punish their children. There is nothing in suffering in hell that teaches anyone anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I think it is really rather simple... parents discipline and / or punish their children in order to teach them, and / or protect them from danger... NOT TO DESTROY THEM. Would or COULD God be any different? Yes god could be different because he is holy. If you don't know what holy is, it's like magical fairy dust. This fairy dust is very unstable and burns like acid if it comes in contact with something so absurd as someone who questions your very existence. And, when the fairy dust burns, god gets mad and when god gets mad a little disciplinary action isn't good enough, he wants the transgressors of the fairy dust to pay the ultimate price. Kind of like the antithesis of Gaunilo's perfect island, god can imagine perfect pain and suffering for those bad bad people who dared shun the mixture of extra special fairy dust he wants to sprinkle on all those who believe his fantastic stories and kiss his ass. It makes perfect sense if you think about it. *ok, I feel like I'm channeling MWC* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I think it is really rather simple... parents discipline and / or punish their children in order to teach them, and / or protect them from danger... NOT TO DESTROY THEM. Would or COULD God be any different? What sort of parent would make their child suffer for eternity? And remember, hell is pure punishment -- there is no 'teaching' motive behind damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Pondering this for only moments of my existance today, whose choice is it to remain separate from the parent? In the case of God, I am thinking that God has made a way for his children to be with him. So again, is it his choice or ours? As no one seems to have a clear definition of what hell is, how can we know if separation from him is not like "eternal damnation" or "a lake of fire" or "hell" or whatever. Typically in life, I have witnessed children making the decision not to talk to their parents for an extended period of time, not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Typically in life, I have witnessed children making the decision not to talk to their parents for an extended period of time, not the other way around. And that was through no fault of the parent? The parent was all love and mercy, and the child just threw it all away? The parent has done something in many cases (I grant, not all cases, some kids are just self-centered jerks) to cause the child to react in such a way. But, there also comes a time when parents need to allow their child to be an adult, make their own choices, adn love them anyway.....instead of threatening to disown them for their actions. That is how I see the whole question of Hell, it is a threat of disownment from God, even to those children who try to please him, but fail. Not the best parenting technique, and far suspect for a deity, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Pondering this for only moments of my existance today, whose choice is it to remain separate from the parent? My parents are my parents. There I have a choice. In the case of God, I am thinking that God has made a way for his children to be with him. So again, is it his choice or ours? Not if God is just made up. God isn't my parent. And he refuse to show himself or prove himself. He is omnipotent and refuse to do a little miracle to prove his existence, which means it isn't a choice. A choice should be well informed. The existence of God isn't a well informed choice, but based on pure speculation. Lets say some aliens from the planet Xyz make the same claim as God. They exist, they refuse to prove their existence, but one day, not far in the future, they will destroy Earth for not believing in them. Would you blame humans for that (so called) choice? It sounds very much like the Hitchhikers Guide when the Vorlons are about to destroy Earth. The information about the space highway has been on display for enough long time on a remote planet we can't get to, so it's our own fault for staying on the planet while it gets destroyed. As no one seems to have a clear definition of what hell is, how can we know if separation from him is not like "eternal damnation" or "a lake of fire" or "hell" or whatever. And considering that since no one have a definition at all on hell, and they can't have, then one definition which is very plausible is: it doesn't exist. Typically in life, I have witnessed children making the decision not to talk to their parents for an extended period of time, not the other way around. Well, the kids have experience of their parents every day. They know the parents exist, since they have seen them and talked to them for a very, very, very long time, every day. That's different than to have a imaginary parent who lives on another planet and never calls. I think the parent allegory is faulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 As no one seems to have a clear definition of what hell is, how can we know if separation from him is not like "eternal damnation" or "a lake of fire" or "hell" or whatever. First, what type of God are you discussing End? How is it possible to be separated from God? Are you suggesting that God did not construct a specific state or place called hell, but that we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 First, what type of God are you discussing End? Hey Ms. Deva, BibleGod of course... How is it possible to be separated from God? To my own understanding, I don't think it is possible to be separate while living. Are you suggesting that God did not construct a specific state or place called hell, but that we do? I am saying that hell might very well be a place apart from God and that we as "the created" might take heed to "The Parents" warning that choosing a place other than in God is not a place to relish. I am beliving that there is the chance for separation from God when we experience death. My own take on it Ms D is all humanity will be reconciled to God through refining "ages"... Just saying the easy door is open now. Hope you are having a good start to the new year.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 And that was through no fault of the parent? The parent was all love and mercy, and the child just threw it all away? The parent has done something in many cases (I grant, not all cases, some kids are just self-centered jerks) to cause the child to react in such a way. Sure, but I thought we were using this as analogous to God, God not having the flaws that human parents have... But, there also comes a time when parents need to allow their child to be an adult, make their own choices, adn love them anyway.....instead of threatening to disown them for their actions. That is how I see the whole question of Hell, it is a threat of disownment from God, even to those children who try to please him, but fail. Not the best parenting technique, and far suspect for a deity, for sure. I see your point Rob, but sometimes for me the threat aspect keeps me from doing stuff that I personally feel is amoral.....adultrey is the first that pops to me personally. Suicide, another. To me your description in the last paragraph is the difference.....a human parent may threaten to disown a child in error, whereas God has not shut the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 My parents are my parents. There I have a choice. Not if God is just made up. God isn't my parent. You don't have to spell it out for me brother, I was thinking we were discussing God as a "parent". I got your point. It sounds very much like the Hitchhikers Guide when the Vorlons are about to destroy Earth. The information about the space highway has been on display for enough long time on a remote planet we can't get to, so it's our own fault for staying on the planet while it gets destroyed. Perhaps as God, your plan would be more pratical. Well, the kids have experience of their parents every day. They know the parents exist, since they have seen them and talked to them for a very, very, very long time, every day. That's different than to have a imaginary parent who lives on another planet and never calls. I think the parent allegory is faulty. Noted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I recently read a thread on Catholic Answers forums that dealt with this topic. The OP asked why it made sense to have eternal punishment for finite transgressions. One of the explanations brought up was that we have no way of knowing whether or not our transgressions are truly finite in nature. Since everything that happens has some sort of consequence on ourselves, others, or the world, you might be able to argue that sins will continue to have effect forever...in the sense that the consequences will keep rippling down. There might be some other way to formulate an argument as well. I am not saying that I agree with this. I thought I would just put it out there for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 One of the explanations brought up was that we have no way of knowing whether or not our transgressions are truly finite in nature. Since everything that happens has some sort of consequence on ourselves, others, or the world, you might be able to argue that sins will continue to have effect forever...in the sense that the consequences will keep rippling down. There might be some other way to formulate an argument as well. They made it sound good. They almost made it sound reasonable. But in effect, what this could be boiled down to is justifying persecuting children for the sins of the parent, or justifying how we are at fault for a fruit eating incident in a garden thousands of years before we were even a thought. Let's say I steal a car. The owner of the car is so pissed about the theft, he loses his temper and beats the shit out of his wife. So looking at the explanation you were given, that means I'm just as responsible for the wife beating as I am the car theft. But there lies another problem...the guy I stole the car from? What about his Free Will? Is he equally held responsible for the sin of beating his wife (which in the OT isn't even a sin...but let's pretend it is)? Or is he only 3/4ths responsible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi End3. I can't quite understand why the possibility of separation occurs only at death. Isn't it the same soul now, same situation? At least you don't think hell is eternal and that it all works out eventually. That's a big improvement on the standard Christian theology. My new year is starting out well, hope the same for you, End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Pondering this for only moments of my existance today, whose choice is it to remain separate from the parent? In the case of God, I am thinking that God has made a way for his children to be with him. So again, is it his choice or ours? As no one seems to have a clear definition of what hell is, how can we know if separation from him is not like "eternal damnation" or "a lake of fire" or "hell" or whatever. Typically in life, I have witnessed children making the decision not to talk to their parents for an extended period of time, not the other way around. Can we agree that hell/separation from God/however-you'd-like-to-think-about-it involves suffering? That part of its definition is its depiction* as Heaven's 'unpleasant' alternative? And as for the word 'choice' being thrown around, how do you deal with Mill when he points out how "there is something truly disgusting and wicked in the thought that God purposefully creates beings to fill hell with, beings who cannot in any way be held responsible for their actions since God Himself chooses to lead them astray." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Can we agree that hell/separation from God/however-you'd-like-to-think-about-it involves suffering? That part of its definition is its depiction* as Heaven's 'unpleasant' alternative? Yes, that is my take on hell, but do we know that this suffering is a result of an inflicted punishment or the absence of God and the resulting "order" thereof. And as for the word 'choice' being thrown around, how do you deal with Mill when he points out how "there is something truly disgusting and wicked in the thought that God purposefully creates beings to fill hell with, beings who cannot in any way be held responsible for their actions since God Himself chooses to lead them astray." I have not watched the video...my apologies. In my reality, I perceive choice. If I am predestined, I am unaware, (although sometimes I think I see cause for one case or the other). But for now, God says ask. And fwiw, let's not leave the word sovereign out of this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Can an omnipresent creator god that is transcendent from creation eternally separate himself from the hellbound? Isn't that a paradox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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