Yrth Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Yes, that is my take on hell, but do we know that this suffering is a result of an inflicted punishment or the absence of God and the resulting "order" thereof. I don't see how it matters either way, since ultimately the source of and blame for the situation would be God, no? I have not watched the video...my apologies. In my reality, I perceive choice. If I am predestined, I am unaware, (although sometimes I think I see cause for one case or the other). But for now, God says ask. And fwiw, let's not leave the word sovereign out of this discussion. I think Mill's critique is still very relevant: there is something really awful about a God who created a Heaven and a Hell and beings to fill both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Can an omnipresent creator god that is transcendent from creation eternally separate himself from the hellbound? Isn't that a paradox? If I am understanding Doc, I don't really see a paradox. I am assuming if there is a Heaven we may access, then there is a state of separation we may access as well, but I don't know that I struggle with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I don't see how it matters either way, since ultimately the source of and blame for the situation would be God, no? I think this is where the sovereign part come into play. I think Mill's critique is still very relevant: there is something really awful about a God who created a Heaven and a Hell and beings to fill both. Sometimes I cook and it tastes like crap....I toss it to the dogs or it lands in food hell (the garbage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I don't see how it matters either way, since ultimately the source of and blame for the situation would be God, no? I think this is where the sovereign part come into play. I think Mill's critique is still very relevant: there is something really awful about a God who created a Heaven and a Hell and beings to fill both. Sometimes I cook and it tastes like crap....I toss it to the dogs or it lands in food hell (the garbage). I'd like you to state more clearly what you mean. I can try to interpret your examples, but I'll probably get it wrong and I don't want to waste my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 14, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted January 14, 2009 Sometimes I cook and it tastes like crap....I toss it to the dogs or it lands in food hell (the garbage). Hey, End! When your cooking tastes like crap it's because you made a mistake. God doesn't make mistakes (according to legend). Therefore, his crap that goes into the garbage was made deliberately. That was the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I like that! :whs: :lol2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi End3, To me, "sovereign" implies that we are the clay and the christian god is the potter. Therefore, the creation has no right to turn down his offer of salvation. If we refuse to believe, he has every right to throw us into hell (the type of hell doesn't matter), since he owns us. We truly are either slaves of god or slaves of sin due to this. Sin being the religious term for being born human and having a mind of our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Sometimes I cook and it tastes like crap....I toss it to the dogs or it lands in food hell (the garbage). Hey, End! When your cooking tastes like crap it's because you made a mistake. God doesn't make mistakes (according to legend). Therefore, his crap that goes into the garbage was made deliberately. That was the point. Good point F, but I am thinking, if memory serves, the bible talks about God lamenting creating humans. If the Christian God is what is says, then there you are....a reality that is not palitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I don't see how it matters either way, since ultimately the source of and blame for the situation would be God, no? I think this is where the sovereign part come into play. I think Mill's critique is still very relevant: there is something really awful about a God who created a Heaven and a Hell and beings to fill both. Sometimes I cook and it tastes like crap....I toss it to the dogs or it lands in food hell (the garbage). I'd like you to state more clearly what you mean. I can try to interpret your examples, but I'll probably get it wrong and I don't want to waste my time. I don't know that it is impossible for God to have created something that went astray, i.e. the devil. So I assume it is possible that humans might go astray. As in the example, sure, I created the cooking, but the oven (another of my creations) burned the damn stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi End3, To me, "sovereign" implies that we are the clay and the christian god is the potter. Therefore, the creation has no right to turn down his offer of salvation. If we refuse to believe, he has every right to throw us into hell (the type of hell doesn't matter), since he owns us. We truly are either slaves of god or slaves of sin due to this. Sin being the religious term for being born human and having a mind of our own. Emancipated slaves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I don't see how it matters either way, since ultimately the source of and blame for the situation would be God, no? I think this is where the sovereign part come into play. I think Mill's critique is still very relevant: there is something really awful about a God who created a Heaven and a Hell and beings to fill both. Sometimes I cook and it tastes like crap....I toss it to the dogs or it lands in food hell (the garbage). I'd like you to state more clearly what you mean. I can try to interpret your examples, but I'll probably get it wrong and I don't want to waste my time. I am not trying to dismiss your comments Pockets.... my examples sometimes are just for humor and most of the time they do not work too well. But, does this mean the creation supersedes the creator and also in interpretation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi End3, To me, "sovereign" implies that we are the clay and the christian god is the potter. Therefore, the creation has no right to turn down his offer of salvation. If we refuse to believe, he has every right to throw us into hell (the type of hell doesn't matter), since he owns us. We truly are either slaves of god or slaves of sin due to this. Sin being the religious term for being born human and having a mind of our own. Emancipated slaves.... Emancipated from sin, but switching masters-now slaves of god. Since god makes the rules and defines humanity as sinners for being born, we have no real choice but to go to hell or believe and obey (for there's no other way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Good point F, but I am thinking, if memory serves, the bible talks about God lamenting creating humans. If the Christian God is what is says, then there you are....a reality that is not palitable. It's just so easy... but what the hell, I'm feeling like having fun. If God is lamenting, he's feeling bad for a reason. In this case it's because he feels like he made a mistake. I.e. He's not perfect, and not a true God. Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 15, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted January 15, 2009 If memory serves (correct me if I'm wrong) God created Man. He "lamented" or regretted doing that at one point (he made a mistake, and failed to foresee what would happen). But he is defined as omniscient, omnipotent and loving. So how could he create something if he knew it would be faulty and need to be cruelly destroyed eventually? It doesn't compute for me. The only "answer" I can get for that is that "God works in mysterious ways - we can't know the mind of God." But we were created in his image, so we should be able to relate to his mind, because it is like ours. We can only be as good as we are made, and if he makes us wrong, who is really to blame? End, better go practice your cooking. If you burn the bacon, don't blame the pig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 If you burn the bacon, don't blame the pig! I like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I don't know that it is impossible for God to have created something that went astray, i.e. the devil. So I assume it is possible that humans might go astray. As in the example, sure, I created the cooking, but the oven (another of my creations) burned the damn stuff. The only Christian idea of God that's consistent with divine accidents [that I know of] is open theism. There is either risk or no risk. If there is no risk [and God deliberately created a hell and beings to fill it], then we would & should be troubled by that idea. If there is risk [and God is basically gambling 'in real time' on his creations], then we have a whole other laundry list of problems with which to contend, among them [and relevant to this conversation] would be the idea that someone has set up [and is OK with] a system where some people are going to suffer forever in his rubbish bin. Either way, God is still the culprit behind hell/w.e-you-want-to-call-it. Free will/choice 'apologies' don't distance God from hell at all, they just acknowledge how horrible it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Using the parent analogy, it doesn't matter what my child does or how they treat others. It doesn't matter if they steal, lie, cheat, or inflict any damage to the world around them or others. As long as they love me and kiss my ass, then I will reward them. Consequently, if my child is truly compassionate and caring but refuses to acknowledge me or give me the credit I feel I deserve, then they deserve the worst kind of punishment I can dish out. It's their choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 I have not watched the video...my apologies. This is typical. Get in an in depth argument over something you know nothing whatsoever about. It's all of 9 minutes... Can't spare 9 mins to prepare yourself? You are "actually" debating the videos points without actually seeing it? Is there no wonder I refer to xtians as braindead? This just show a total void of any common sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Using the parent analogy, it doesn't matter what my child does or how they treat others. It doesn't matter if they steal, lie, cheat, or inflict any damage to the world around them or others. As long as they love me and kiss my ass, then I will reward them. Consequently, if my child is truly compassionate and caring but refuses to acknowledge me or give me the credit I feel I deserve, then they deserve the worst kind of punishment I can dish out. It's their choice. That's great Taph. You always have a way with words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Do any of you feel predestined for hell? Obviously so....give me a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I have not watched the video...my apologies. This is typical. Get in an in depth argument over something you know nothing whatsoever about. It's all of 9 minutes... Can't spare 9 mins to prepare yourself? You are "actually" debating the videos points without actually seeing it? Is there no wonder I refer to xtians as braindead? This just show a total void of any common sense... LOL!!! That's funny. Always good to argue the points of the OP without even taking in all of the content within the OP. Yet xtians get pissy when we barely take them seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I don't know that it is impossible for God to have created something that went astray, i.e. the devil. So I assume it is possible that humans might go astray. As in the example, sure, I created the cooking, but the oven (another of my creations) burned the damn stuff. Well, that sounds like God would be able to create something for which he would not know the outcome of. Not as omniscient as we thought then? And wouldn't a perfect being be able to create perfect things that wouldn't go astray? Or maybe the answer is that Evil, Sin, Hell, and the Devil are Perfect in God's eyes? Maybe the ultimate good is the balance of the particulars of good and evil? Yin, yang, in other words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I admitted to not viewing the video.....never was trying to argue for or against said video....just jumped in with an opinion on the discussion that seemingly was non-specific. No one answered the question I asked before.....seems everyone is feeling sorry for themselves, reason being they are the ones God is predestining to hell. For one, are you aware of predestination?????????, and if so, fill us all in, objectively!!!! An occasional Holy Spirit intervention to guide me but no awareness of a predestined outcome from the Big Man. So yeah, it is a choice for one to ask God for His presence in your lives unless you are miraculously aware that you are predestined one way or the other. Somehow it is still viable that you are not a part of the believing, but then crap on faith? Wake up....and please refrain from the onslaught of whining. Stupid argument anyway, and walking willingly blind on your part. Taph, your previous statements are not accurate. The bible says repent of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Do any of you feel predestined for hell? No. Not me. Why should we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 No one answered the question I asked before.....seems everyone is feeling sorry for themselves, reason being they are the ones God is predestining to hell. For one, are you aware of predestination?????????, and if so, fill us all in, objectively!!!! An occasional Holy Spirit intervention to guide me but no awareness of a predestined outcome from the Big Man. So yeah, it is a choice for one to ask God for His presence in your lives unless you are miraculously aware that you are predestined one way or the other. Have you been here so long and still don't get it? We don't believe hell or god are real, what we are objecting to is not reality but a concept that traditional Christianity CLAIMS is reality. We are trying to point out that this concept makes no logical or moral sense. I would think this would be fairly obvious by now. Somehow it is still viable that you are not a part of the believing, but then crap on faith? Wake up....and please refrain from the onslaught of whining. Stupid argument anyway, and walking willingly blind on your part. Oh please.... who is whining here? You confuse me end3, sometimes you seem to be a totally reasonable human being and other times you seem like just another fundamentalist asshole who enjoys being a jerk and making light of our experiences. Taph, your previous statements are not accurate. The bible says repent of evil. The bible says a lot of things....a lot of them make no sense, many of them contradict one another, and all of them were written by men who lived 2000+ years ago and had a very different concept of "evil" than I do. I'm sure we have been down this road before end, but just to remind you. Genocide, Slavery, Concubinage (sexual slavery), Polygamy, and Pedophilia are all given direct or indirect approval by the god of the bible. To the writers of that book REAL evil was not giving god his due. The hell with how you treat other people, if they were women or from another country they weren't worth spiting on if they were on fire. That may not be the god YOU worship but it IS the god of the bible. I'll say this again, you are far more moral than the bible god, you just don't realize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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