PiracyOfTheHead Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Indeed! It is an irrational and infinitely sadistic punishment. If any other god did that, Christians would be horrified about it, scream for the religion to be abolished yet when it comes to their own god, they sing praise hymns about him. That's seriously out of wack! Hell is one of the most horrific inventions of humanity in my opinion. If a sadistic killer even tortured a woman a fraction of what God will be about to do to all of humanity, he would have gone to prison or be on death row. Yet they call God a moral and perfect being? What sort of justice is that and what logic did that take for them swallow that?! Hell is a repugnant doctrine and I for one, totally and utterly reject it! Because nobody deserves to live in fear of an imaginary doctrine dreamed up by a dictatorial imaginary god. I second that, all of that Onyx. Now lets add the Orthodox Christian Aerial Toll-Houses to the mix, for an even more frightening and sadistic version of what happens for you when you die. 40 days of trial by demons to see if you go to eternal punishment....this is what was hanging over our heads in the cult and in Orthodoxy...it was a MAJOR THEME though at the Monastery. Could you imagine being on trial in a courtroom against a life sentence in prison, imagine how nervous and torturous that would be....well heres what a loving god supposedly puts you through for 40 days after your soul has been ripped away from your body upon death. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx This will give you a whole new level of contempt my friend. Its kind of a long read but its worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 I refuse to jump into the fray with end3 or any other believer. But I just wanted to comment that this video is so good, and so concise and reaches some very important conclusions, that I think this thread should be pinned. Many many new deconverts and struggling believers who come here would benefit from watching that little video. Heather Done. Thanks for pinning it, even with end3's mindless ramblings mixed in, the video alone I believe will be very helpful to newly deconverted people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 It is a difficult thing for a Christian to learn to live in the present. Christians are taught often from birth that the present is crap and that the only good space/time to be is the distant future. The problem with that is that a human only gets to live in the present. If you can't find fullness now, you never will. This is because now is all you have, even if you are in heaven. I would expect Heaven to be a place of no need or the concept of no desire for searching/needing , a fullfillment that needs nothing. I.E. Hans would not have to fulfill himself through knowledge. You indicate, suggest, intimate, hint, propose, and nominate Jesus as fulfilling. But you don't seem very convinced. Humanity keeps me from being conviced. No? You have Jesus. You have faith in Jesus, yet you are still empty aren't you? Yes, but not without hope, and that in itself is not completely empty. You are angry with us because we have discovered that Jesus isn't going to come across with filling. He can't because he is not. I appreciate your kindness of word, but my yet unresolved issues are still unknown even to me, or else I wouldn't have to come here and beat on you people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 I appreciate your kindness of word, but my yet unresolved issues are still unknown even to me, or else I wouldn't have to come here and beat on you people. "Beat" on us??? ROFLMFAO uhm... the only ass I have see kicked here is your own. I bet you STILL have not watched the video eh? What the fuck are you afraid of? Just watch it. Try to do it with an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I appreciate your kindness of word, but my yet unresolved issues are still unknown even to me, or else I wouldn't have to come here and beat on you people. "Beat" on us??? ROFLMFAO uhm... the only ass I have see kicked here is your own. I bet you STILL have not watched the video eh? What the fuck are you afraid of? Just watch it. Try to do it with an open mind. I watched your cartoon Swim....discuss away jackass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I would expect Heaven to be a place of no need or the concept of no desire for searching/needing , a fullfillment that needs nothing. I.E. Hans would not have to fulfill himself through knowledge. God is all knowing, so I would get my fulfillment through knowledge even in Heaven. If no need for desire, then no need for living, then no one really exists. My belief is that without need, you won't have any life. Yes, but not without hope, and that in itself is not completely empty. Ah. So you finally come around and agree humanity is not completely empty. People have hope you say, so there you have it. No one is really empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I would expect Heaven to be a place of no need or the concept of no desire for searching/needing , a fullfillment that needs nothing. I.E. Hans would not have to fulfill himself through knowledge. So end3, you will be an automaton filled with "peace that passes all understanding" in heaven. Something to look forward to? Sounds like a nightmare from "the twilight zone". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 I watched your cartoon Swim....discuss away jackass If you actually watched it, and STILL believe in a hell, that makes YOU the jackass pinhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I watched your cartoon Swim....discuss away jackass If you actually watched it, and STILL believe in a hell, that makes YOU the jackass pinhead. I think you are possibly a complete, as in, fulfilled ass/moron SWIM. Posts 13 and 17 explain my beliefs on "hell". I think for you Swim it is might be possible to leave out the asslike behavior, but the moronic would remain....wait, nope, I am wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I would expect Heaven to be a place of no need or the concept of no desire for searching/needing , a fullfillment that needs nothing. I.E. Hans would not have to fulfill himself through knowledge. So end3, you will be an automaton filled with "peace that passes all understanding" in heaven. Something to look forward to? Sounds like a nightmare from "the twilight zone". Sounds like retirement? Why do we strive to retire? Please be specific... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 If no need for desire, then no need for living, then no one really exists. My belief is that without need, you won't have any life. So, are we very far apart in our concepts? I assume you are saying that we must eat to live. Why is it difficult to describe needing spiritual food for survival. Ah. So you finally come around and agree humanity is not completely empty. People have hope you say, so there you have it. No one is really empty. That's not what I said earlier you semantical bastard . I said we were born mostly empty and are progressively filled. If, without Jesus, we would not have the hope of being filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Our Spiritual fulfillment is incomplete or we would have no desire for fulfillment, just like you eating......pick it up Hans, you are slipping these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I would expect Heaven to be a place of no need or the concept of no desire for searching/needing , a fullfillment that needs nothing. I.E. Hans would not have to fulfill himself through knowledge. So end3, you will be an automaton filled with "peace that passes all understanding" in heaven. Something to look forward to? Sounds like a nightmare from "the twilight zone". Sounds like retirement? Why do we strive to retire? Please be specific... Are you saying that heaven is your retirement? So you rest for eternity for your fulfillment? You stop eating, drinking, learning, having sex (just like the angels), pursuing goals, exploring the universe (or earth), fishing, swimming, etc. Some retirement! In the here-and-now we stop working and start doing the all the things we didn't have the time or money to do-not rest on our asses the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 That's not what I said earlier you semantical bastard . I said we were born mostly empty and are progressively filled. If, without Jesus, we would not have the hope of being filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Our Spiritual fulfillment is incomplete or we would have no desire for fulfillment, just like you eating......pick it up Hans, you are slipping these days. But we don't find human effort disgusting at all. Honestly I find your beliefs on this a bit disgusting. I don't need to invent some unseen layer of reality in order to find fulfillment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I would expect Heaven to be a place of no need or the concept of no desire for searching/needing , a fullfillment that needs nothing. I.E. Hans would not have to fulfill himself through knowledge. So end3, you will be an automaton filled with "peace that passes all understanding" in heaven. Something to look forward to? Sounds like a nightmare from "the twilight zone". Sounds like retirement? Why do we strive to retire? Please be specific... Are you saying that heaven is your retirement? So you rest for eternity for your fulfillment? You stop eating, drinking, learning, having sex (just like the angels), pursuing goals, exploring the universe (or earth), fishing, swimming, etc. Some retirement! In the here-and-now we stop working and start doing the all the things we didn't have the time or money to do-not rest on our asses the whole time. Can you think of a better place to retire? You do raise an interesting thought....that perhaps it is not a place of perpetual worship as some may believe, but perhaps a place of Spiritual rest, but still with golf and such...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 That's not what I said earlier you semantical bastard . I said we were born mostly empty and are progressively filled. If, without Jesus, we would not have the hope of being filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Our Spiritual fulfillment is incomplete or we would have no desire for fulfillment, just like you eating......pick it up Hans, you are slipping these days. But we don't find human effort disgusting at all. Honestly I find your beliefs on this a bit disgusting. I don't need to invent some unseen layer of reality in order to find fulfillment. In all seriousness K, why do you find these thoughts disgusting? FWW, I do have things that I find enjoyment/fulfillment on a periodic basis in this life......some kind of cool ones actually. BTW, I appreciate your attitude over the months.....I have come to respect your input these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Wow... I just experienced people traveling from all over the country, Los Angeles, Chicago and New York to celebrate a friend's life at his funeral and wake. The love and support they showed his wife and children was, well, less than disgusting. Giving of their time, money, effort, food... to get nothing back... just to give. Perhaps your efforts have been disgusting... perhaps that is why you are so needy for a "savior". If you want a better world, live a better life, be a better person. If you are just waiting for death and heaven... why wait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Can you think of a better place to retire? You do raise an interesting thought....that perhaps it is not a place of perpetual worship as some may believe, but perhaps a place of Spiritual rest, but still with golf and such...lol. Sounds to me like it could be a place of perpetual boredom. Since Scripture is supposedly inerrant, then the words in Revelation describe heaven as a place of perpetual worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 I watched your cartoon Swim....discuss away jackass If you actually watched it, and STILL believe in a hell, that makes YOU the jackass pinhead. I think you are possibly a complete, as in, fulfilled ass/moron SWIM. Posts 13 and 17 explain my beliefs on "hell". I think for you Swim it is might be possible to leave out the asslike behavior, but the moronic would remain....wait, nope, I am wrong.... Even your lame attempts at insults are foggy and hazy LOL what gem we have in you, lol, what a gem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Ah. So you finally come around and agree humanity is not completely empty. People have hope you say, so there you have it. No one is really empty. That's not what I said earlier you semantical bastard . I said we were born mostly empty and are progressively filled. If, without Jesus, we would not have the hope of being filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Our Spiritual fulfillment is incomplete or we would have no desire for fulfillment, just like you eating......pick it up Hans, you are slipping these days. No End3, I didn't twist your words. This is the post you started, which I argued against: Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to. Humanity, in itself, is empty. Finally, I don't see what decision I should be making here. I've already made my decision to leave Christianity. I don't even see how or why there is another decision to be made. I am sorry to hear that.... If you really didn't mean it that way, you could have said that you didn't mean it that way, instead of keeping on defending it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I said we were born mostly empty and are progressively filled. If, without Jesus, we would not have the hope of being filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Our Spiritual fulfillment is incomplete or we would have no desire for fulfillment, just like you eating....... End3. How can you demonstrate that we are born mostly empty? I disagree, if I understand rightly what you mean by emptiness. Emptiness as in having no spiritual background. As a person who subscribes to reincarnation I must disagree. We are not born with an empty slate. Its common sense to me, End. Just because our spiritual fulfillment is incomplete does not mean we are empty, in fact I would say it indicates the opposite. It may be incomplete, as you say. That is different from empty. Why do you say that our efforts are disgusting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Ah. So you finally come around and agree humanity is not completely empty. People have hope you say, so there you have it. No one is really empty. That's not what I said earlier you semantical bastard . I said we were born mostly empty and are progressively filled. If, without Jesus, we would not have the hope of being filled with something other than our own disgusting efforts. Our Spiritual fulfillment is incomplete or we would have no desire for fulfillment, just like you eating......pick it up Hans, you are slipping these days. No End3, I didn't twist your words. This is the post you started, which I argued against: Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to. Humanity, in itself, is empty. Finally, I don't see what decision I should be making here. I've already made my decision to leave Christianity. I don't even see how or why there is another decision to be made. I am sorry to hear that.... If you really didn't mean it that way, you could have said that you didn't mean it that way, instead of keeping on defending it. Let me try and be more clear. From a spiritual standpoint, I think we are void of spirit, good or bad, until we let an option, good or bad, into our bodies after a given age. Let me rephrase that, as that is not too goodly....after a given age, we have the choice to fill our spiritual void with good or bad. I have found in my experience, that regardless of spiritual orientation, believers or non-believers, the outward conveyance of both choices generally yields the same message, one of more humanity than one of Spirit. That, a few days ago, was leaving me feeling empty myself in addition to starting another attempt at antidepressants. Most of you seem to want to know why I hang around or come back. I think it has to do with the condescending attitude of non-belief. I learned to despise this, indirectly, I think, as my ole dad was much like this. I just think it is a destructive attitude. I probably continue to fight against it as it still appears the wrong choice to me to this day. You mostly seem to take an objective approach to explaining things in your life. I have come to believe that that is a result of backlash from your experience(s). I am sorry if that is uncomfortable to you, but it is my observation. I do think you are a decent human. With regard to belief, I have a hard time dismissing things like laminin, the triple point of water, celluostic compounds for water purification, Moses's glowing face etc., all, to me, are alluded to in the Bible. I would like to know if you think they are coincidence or where you store these in your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Let me try and be more clear. From a spiritual standpoint, I think we are void of spirit, good or bad, until we let an option, good or bad, into our bodies after a given age. I have found in my experience, that regardless of spiritual orientation, believers or non-believers, the outward conveyance of both choices generally yields the same message, one of more humanity than one of Spirit. That, a few days ago, was leaving me feeling empty myself in addition to starting another attempt at antidepressants. I take it you don't believe in the Augustinian theory of Original Sin, then? Do you believe that becoming Spirit filled is an choice we actively engage in, then, thereby making it our salvation, so to speak, not grace, but a work which we can boast of. Before this certain age... what is the condition of the "human soul"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 End3. How can you demonstrate that we are born mostly empty? I disagree, if I understand rightly what you mean by emptiness. Emptiness as in having no spiritual background. As a person who subscribes to reincarnation I must disagree. We are not born with an empty slate. Its common sense to me, End. Just because our spiritual fulfillment is incomplete does not mean we are empty, in fact I would say it indicates the opposite. It may be incomplete, as you say. That is different from empty. I think I mostly agree with you Ms. D.....your statement reminded me of some prior rantings of my beliefs awhile back. I do think humans are given what they are given by God, but at the "age of accountability" we, the cups, get offered choices for filling ourselves. Why do you say that our efforts are disgusting? I say that because even after selecting a filling, humans still mostly display that they have been filled with a "bitter" drink. It leaves me feeling disgusted at times about humanity. I would guess that certainly there are outliers to every average, but for the most part I think this explanation matches with what it says is a need for Christ. Would you not agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Let me try and be more clear. From a spiritual standpoint, I think we are void of spirit, good or bad, until we let an option, good or bad, into our bodies after a given age. I have found in my experience, that regardless of spiritual orientation, believers or non-believers, the outward conveyance of both choices generally yields the same message, one of more humanity than one of Spirit. That, a few days ago, was leaving me feeling empty myself in addition to starting another attempt at antidepressants. I take it you don't believe in the Augustinian theory of Original Sin, then? Do you believe that becoming Spirit filled is an choice we actively engage in, then, thereby making it our salvation, so to speak, not grace, but a work which we can boast of. Before this certain age... what is the condition of the "human soul"? My apologies, I went back and edited my statement, as it was unclear again. "Let me rephrase that, as that is not too goodly....after a given age, we have the choice to fill our spiritual void with good or bad." I can see how we are born into a world that "contains sin", but don't think humanity is born sinful as evidenced by the smiles on little children's faces and the way that they behave. I think grace is what we have and see no evidence for predistination. My mind says predestination is real, but if it is, it is hidden from me. I think our choice is subsequent to grace....without Grace, we would have no choice. I don't see our choice as being a work. Before this age, what is the condition of the soul? As it was with Adam and Eve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Let me try and be more clear. From a spiritual standpoint, I think we are void of spirit, good or bad, until we let an option, good or bad, into our bodies after a given age. I have found in my experience, that regardless of spiritual orientation, believers or non-believers, the outward conveyance of both choices generally yields the same message, one of more humanity than one of Spirit. That, a few days ago, was leaving me feeling empty myself in addition to starting another attempt at antidepressants. I take it you don't believe in the Augustinian theory of Original Sin, then? Do you believe that becoming Spirit filled is an choice we actively engage in, then, thereby making it our salvation, so to speak, not grace, but a work which we can boast of. Before this certain age... what is the condition of the "human soul"? My apologies, I went back and edited my statement, as it was unclear again. "Let me rephrase that, as that is not too goodly....after a given age, we have the choice to fill our spiritual void with good or bad." I can see how we are born into a world that "contains sin", but don't think humanity is born sinful as evidenced by the smiles on little children's faces and the way that they behave. I think grace is what we have and see no evidence for predistination. My mind says predestination is real, but if it is, it is hidden from me. I think our choice is subsequent to grace....without Grace, we would have no choice. I don't see our choice as being a work. Before this age, what is the condition of the soul? As it was with Adam and Eve. "That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain— At least I am sure it may be so in Denmark." Bill S. So walking and talking with God, Adam and Eve had a spiritual void.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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