Hell: An Excessive Punishment

[HelloWorld]

I have not contributed a post to this topic, but I have been following it. I agree that there have been some Christians on the board who are indeed idiots. However, I find that labels like "biggest braindead idiot" are thrown around a little too often. Based on what I have read, I would not call end3 a braindead idiot. Certainly, he has made some illogical conclusions and and unfair comments, but I hardly think that puts him in the category of braindead idiot. All of us make errors at some point, and what we say is coloured by how we see things. Things that seem very logically straight forward to us might not be as straight forward to Christians because they have not thought about things in the way we have.

 

I understand that sometimes people are hurt or offended by the comments that Christians make here. I don't deny that I have not been angered by some of the ignorant and silly things they have posted. I don't believe, though, that accusing these people of being "braindead idiots" or the like is the best way to maintain any kind of constructive discussion. We might say, "This is our turf, we don't need input from Christians, we don't owe them any justification for our beliefs etc" and we would be correct. But I think it would be good if the ignorant people who show up here don't leave with any preconceived ideas about exChristians being rude, immoral, angry etc. confirmed by such name calling.........

 

....even if the name fits.

 

Sorry if I am out of line by saying this, but it has been bothering me for a few weeks.

 

HelloWorld. Please read End's posts prior to this thread. SWIM is hardly the type of guy who would just slander someone without cause. End3 has given cause.

 

Plus....this is the Lion's Den. That may seem like a crappy excuse to justify being "meanies" towards people who have different beliefs...but ya know what? They really CAN go elsewhere if they want their effluvia to be treated like pearls of wisdom. Plenty of sites out there, they hardly need to come here.

 

The Lion's Den serves a purpose. This site is for the emotional support of EX-CHRISTIANS, and one of the most affirming, de-stressing, and even FUN things to do as an Ex-C is to be able to have the freedom to flat out call someone on their BS, using whatever colorful expressions they like. This is one of the ONLY places where we can do that. It is liberating being able to say what we want HERE where many of us cannot in Real Life.

 

Does than mean being downright abusive to every christian who comes in? For some ex-c members, that is what they need to help heal themselves. Many of us have to play "nice" and be all Politically Correct so damn much, that we can get wound up pretty tight. Better to unleash it here don't you think?

 

We are allowed to be angry....here, if no where else. Remember the description of the Forums, and the one for Lion's Den in particular. Christians know damn well what they could be in for by posting here. They are given fair warning.

 

I can certainly understand if you are not comfortable with such open venom. We are raised to suppress and deny anger. Taught to treat it like a "mistake" in our overall makeup. This is not so. It is the bottled-up rage I worry about now...not the person lashing at fools (proven time and time again in prior threads). The bottled rage eventually explodes. I've actually found myself to be much slower to frustration and anger in my Real Life, as there is somewhere I can go to express my irritations.

 

The Lion's Den Forum is not a fluke. Though it is not, and doesn't have to be for everyone, it is here for those who need it.

 

 

Your're right. I should have read the Lion's Den rules before I posted that. I can understand how people would need to vent in this way as part of their deconversion process. I suppose it just makes me feel uncomfortable because it seems so rash to me. But I respect the need for you to do that, and I shouldn't have butted in.

 

I have never felt the need to do the name calling-explosion thing online, but I have noticed that when I was around my family at Christmas, I was deliberately being different and deliberately arguing with them just to demonstrate that I don't have to be just like them...and that I don't have to accept things because that is the way they have always been. We all have different ways of dealing with the process.

 

Also, not knowing the history of people with end3, I can see see that it was premature for me to comment.

 

Sorry, folks.

[Deva]

Not too sure sometimes Ms. Deva what it is that irritates me about the discussions here or my own anger, so it is hard for me to put a finger on it. I don't particularly care for being called names, but I realize that the Lion's Den is open for such. I am not the only one who has jumped a thread having not read or watched the OP, but certainly get called on it for being a Christian. What is so wonderful about the non-believer position if it yields a sour fruit as well?

 

OK End3, I think all of us get irritated from time to time. You have been here for quite a long time. The right thing to do is to step away and cool down. Don't fan the flames. Use the "ignore" feature if necessary. Let's face it, some people we just may not be able to communicate with. Just accept it and walk away.

 

I don't think the non-believer position is necessarily "wonderful". How did you get that impression? We all live in this world. We all still have good times and bad. All we knew was that it was just a necessity for us to free ourselves from Christianity in order to live a better life free of restrictive dogma. We didn't know in advance how things would turn out after that point. It may indeed be wonderful for some, and for others it may not. It might yield what you refer to as "sour fruit" or not, you can't make these blanket judgments about everyone.

[HelloWorld]

Make your own decision Helloworld, stay here, study these people and see what conclusion you find for their repenting of Christianity. I have.

 

You know, I really don't understand what you were trying to get across here. It seems like you are suggesting that my goal or purpose for being on this forum should be to figure out why the people here have left Christianity. I don't get that. While it is interesting and educational to learn how everyone made (and are making) their de-conversion journey, that is not (and will never be) my purpose for being here. My reason for being here is to get support on my de-conversion process from other who have been through (and are going through) the same things I am and to give support and encouragement in return. I come here to share, to learn, and to grow. I have never ever thought of coming here to dissect people's posts in an attempt to pigeon hole or otherwise categorize their reasons for leaving Christianity. Everyone's story is unique. Mine resembles some that I have read here, but it differs from many others. I don't think anyone, much less a Christian who has never made the journey out of the Christian faith, should be able to say that they have definitively been able to categorize, know, or understand every person's reasons for leaving.

 

Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to.

 

Finally, I don't see what decision I should be making here. I've already made my decision to leave Christianity. I don't even see how or why there is another decision to be made.

[Realist]

Make your own decision Helloworld, stay here, study these people and see what conclusion you find for their repenting of Christianity. I have.

 

 

.... you know end3 I think the problem you create on here is caused by the fact you yourself are such an enigma! Most on this site have worked out which side of the fence they are now on and have accepted that fact in their own lives. They are generally happy with their position. It is YOU that seems to have the problem in that area.

 

You see fundie Christianity ITSELF is the HUGE enigma! The "branch" I belonged to would have openly stated that you (or anyone) COULD NOT be a Christian for remaining on this site. And OF COURSE they were correct because ONLY I and very few others were taught the CORRECT version of fundie Christianity! For instance I was also taught the CORRECT version that told me speaking in tongues was TOTALLY of the devil!!! You could NOT be a Christian and do that! So see only I knew the correct version of Christianity! Okay so which version of fundie Christianity do we believe??? These are MAJOR doctrinal differences!! Christianity itself is what has the problems!!!

[Guest end3]

Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to.

 

Humanity, in itself, is empty.

 

Finally, I don't see what decision I should be making here. I've already made my decision to leave Christianity. I don't even see how or why there is another decision to be made.

 

I am sorry to hear that....

[Realist]

Humanity, in itself, is empty.

 

.... my suggestion to you end3 would be to then find some good friends outside of Christianity! Christians are too full of ulterior motives ... hence the emptiness! I have found FAR more genuine and caring people since I left Christianity ... people I am proud to call my friends!

[HelloWorld]

Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to.

 

Humanity, in itself, is empty.

 

 

You think that the people here have left Christianity because humanity in itself is empty???

 

Do I misunderstand you here?

[white_raven23]

Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to.

 

Humanity, in itself, is empty.

 

Wow.

 

I mean....wow.

 

End3, are you on any medications for depression by chance? Because if you truly believe humanity to be empty......

 

You can look at the pyramids and see emptiness.

You can look at the Great Wall of China and see emptiness.

You can listen to a symphony and hear nothing worth noting.

 

I could go on.... End3, have you SEEN any of the world outside wherever the hell you live? Because no one could say something like that unless they've either never really been anywhere, or were having problems with depression.

 

It is a pity for you, that your spirit is so small. You heard me....I said SPIRIT. And I meant it too. Not in any way you are capable of comprehending beyond a religious context though....and that is part of the pity. You have willfully missed out on so much in the world, or willfully turned a blind eye, or decided none of it was worth a damn. That you really are NOT capable of understanding half of what we say.

 

I mean....DAMN!! Never in my entire life could I EVER have put those words together.

[Kuroikaze]

Not too sure sometimes Ms. Deva what it is that irritates me about the discussions here or my own anger, so it is hard for me to put a finger on it. I don't particularly care for being called names, but I realize that the Lion's Den is open for such. I am not the only one who has jumped a thread having not read or watched the OP, but certainly get called on it for being a Christian. What is so wonderful about the non-believer position if it yields a sour fruit as well?

 

 

I don't see most of us claiming that being a "non-believer" automatically makes someone better than a Christan. Instead we are just denying the claim that Christians make to being "better." That we are ALL on equal ground so to speak.

[agnosticator]

"Humanity, in itself, is empty."

 

Ah, yes. The cynicism of christianity has enveloped you End3. The belief that we are prisoners of sin awaiting destruction because we are human is a cynical view of human nature.

 

Humans find meaning and fulfillment within their lives-not outside of.

[Antlerman]

Make your own decision Helloworld, stay here, study these people and see what conclusion you find for their repenting of Christianity. I have.

And what of me, end? Does your conclusion apply across the board to every member here? Believe it or not, I do have respect for you. I just would like you to consider that it's probably more common than not, that people here are like me who left Christianity because it held us back from growth.

 

That people experience hurt and anger is because their trust was betrayed. It's that simple. But the reasons for leaving it were to finding something that was lacking within it. I sincerely ask you, why are you here if you are finding satisfaction in the system? Be honest. What is it about us that is so compelling to you that you should remain with us for near 1000 posts?

 

All I'm saying is I think you respect us more than you care to admit.

[SWIM]

Do any of you feel predestined for hell? Obviously so....give me a break

 

ROFLMAO!! You CANNOT feel predestined for a place you do not believe even exists...

 

DOH!

 

Seriously SWIM,

 

Do I need to visit the testamonies section to find the specific phrasing for the numerous "Why doesn't God talk to me?" stories. If you can't read the emotion in those words then perhaps you might be the biggest braindead idiot on board.....hard to work up that much emotion when you don't believe in something. Oh, unless you smoke dope SWIM. And yes, you are the first to reply "I don't believe in God so it doesn't apply" phrase as I anticipated. Real good SWIM.....perhaps you have been smoking too much lately.

 

SERIOUSLY End, "Why doesnt gob talk to me stories" are stories of people moving toward deconversion. Its what they thought when they actually "believed", it was part of their struggle away from the foolishness that is religion. You really should revisit the testimonials, only this time "actually" read them.

 

Oh yeah ganja! Gotta love it!

[SWIM]

Seriously SWIM,

 

Do I need to visit the testamonies section to find the specific phrasing for the numerous "Why doesn't God talk to me?" stories. If you can't read the emotion in those words then perhaps you might be the biggest braindead idiot on board.....hard to work up that much emotion when you don't believe in something. Oh, unless you smoke dope SWIM. And yes, you are the first to reply "I don't believe in God so it doesn't apply" phrase as I anticipated. Real good SWIM.....perhaps you have been smoking too much lately.

 

The hell...? Most of the things I read on the Testimony page are along the lines of "God didn't talk to me when I was a believer" (please note the use of the past tense) and "I would be a believer again if God were to talk to me" (asking for proof, quite a logical prerequisite for believing something exists). Now, I see no instance where someone on here is whining because a deity they don't believe in isn't talking to them! Quite the opposite.

 

And may I point out that the "Testimony" section is of course often reeking of emotion. Surely even you can understand that leaving the religion of your youth is a hard process and is often filled with pain. And many who leave their stories there have fresh wounds. Hell, I've been out of that religion for 2 years now and I still get a little emotional recalling all the people who abandoned me, said nasty things about me, the sense of loneliness, etc.

 

You wanna know why so many of us feel emotional about the subject of Christianity? Most of us have those fresh wounds. And a great deal more have emotional scarring that will never go away. Some of our lives have been ruined, some have had our childhoods stolen, some of us were almost killed by the very religion that we believed in with our whole hearts (and I am not over dramatizing that last part, as it is tied in with my own experience). Of course, emotion plays a part in how we talk about Christianity (and note that I say Christianity and not God). So take your "why do you get so emotional about what you don't believe in" strawman argument and shove it.

 

But, having said that, I see no one arguing from emotion in this topic but you. YOU are the one that believes his interpretation of the freewill/predestination argument in Christian theology to be correct and it is YOU who has jumped into a topic without actually reading (or in this case, watching) the OP and have jumped into the argument cold to "defend" your beliefs with generalizations and strawman arguments.

 

Hello Trike,

 

I am aware of the pain. SWIM is being SWIM.... What good would it do to watch a video that ex-christian are in consensus agreement? Just another one of you folks searching for like mindedness to feel some love.

 

Welcome

 

Yeah what good is it to take 9 mins and watch what the original poster intended to be the core of the discussion. There are no people on the video btw, except the author. And its a great explanation on why hell cannot possibly exist. Ahh but I see, you "already" know it all, so having a warehouse full of infinite knowledge in your brain, there just is not room left in there for any more huh? And since it is obvious your stance is to disagree sight unseen, why bother to watch it? sigh.. must be really nice to know all there is to know...

 

That makes you kinda a god yourself? Ironic, a god believing in a god... LOL

[SWIM]

My apologies to the participants who feel as though my disdain was directed at them. Specifically it would be SWIM and Vigile....which is par for the course.

 

Direct away bonehead, don't bother me a bit!

[SWIM]

Finally, I don't see what decision I should be making here. I've already made my decision to leave Christianity. I don't even see how or why there is another decision to be made.

 

Oh he thinks you are a closet xtain, and you have not "decided" yet whether to believe or not. This is typical of End3, don't let it bother you, consider the source, chuckle, throw the dancing bear a coin or two and move on...

[HelloWorld]

Finally, I don't see what decision I should be making here. I've already made my decision to leave Christianity. I don't even see how or why there is another decision to be made.

 

Oh he thinks you are a closet xtain, and you have not "decided" yet whether to believe or not. This is typical of End3, don't let it bother you, consider the source, chuckle, throw the dancing bear a coin or two and move on...

 

Yeah...I was wondering if he thought that, but it didn't make that much sense to me. Also, what would I have have to gain by being a closet Christian? Why stay in the closet? Seems to me that Christianity is really acceptable these days...more so than !Christianity. But maybe you only see that if you are not a Christian. I have observed that there seems to be some kind of consensus among Christians that there is some kind of conspiracy against them. When I left Christianity, I realized how silly that is. They sooooo imagine it. Make them feel "apart from the world" and "persecuted" and "martyrs". Make 'em feel more special and holy.

[MathGeek]

Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to.

 

Humanity, in itself, is empty.

 

 

 

If humanity is empty, then why can I explain the concept of 'empty' in several different contexts?

[Guest end3]

Wow.

 

I mean....wow.

 

End3, are you on any medications for depression by chance? Because if you truly believe humanity to be empty......

 

You can look at the pyramids and see emptiness.

You can look at the Great Wall of China and see emptiness.

You can listen to a symphony and hear nothing worth noting.

 

Yes, there would be no necessity to have built or compose if the understanding or "music" was already present.

 

I could go on.... End3, have you SEEN any of the world outside wherever the hell you live? Because no one could say something like that unless they've either never really been anywhere, or were having problems with depression.

 

Been out of the county a couple of times....

 

I mean....DAMN!! Never in my entire life could I EVER have put those words together.

 

I was shocked when it came to me too.

[Guest end3]

If humanity is empty, then why can I explain the concept of 'empty' in several different contexts?

 

Splain away Lucy...

[Ouroboros]

Despite this, I am curious to know of this "conclusion" you claim to have come to.

 

Humanity, in itself, is empty.

Then you agree that you're empty too?

 

And your statements are empty as well?

 

Hence, the idea of humanity as empty doesn't have any meaning.

 

Unless you think that humanity is empty, but not you.

[Guest end3]

Then you agree that you're empty too?

 

Yes

 

And your statements are empty as well?

 

As in not complete in understanding, yes...not full

 

Hence, the idea of humanity as empty doesn't have any meaning.

 

??? yes, the glass would be becoming full...

 

Unless you think that humanity is empty, but not you.

 

N/A

 

 

And you have some reason to believe I am fulfilled outside of Christ?

[Ouroboros]

And you have some reason to believe I am fulfilled outside of Christ?

Since humanity is empty, then your point is empty. So why should I care?

[Realist]

end3 .... you state Humanity, in itself, is empty.

 

...... this is the LIE christianity would have you believe! I myself believed it for years!

 

By the way I actually think you see something different in people on this site. That is why you have remained here for so long!

 

I myself often see the love humans have for their fellow man ... I volunteer at an air rescue organization among other things ... I see pilots and crew that often put their lives on the line (some are unpaid) without ANY thought of christianity involved ... the reason? Because they are DECENT human beings that care for their fellow mankind! I suggest you search outside your current square!

[white_raven23]

And you have some reason to believe I am fulfilled outside of Christ?

 

Well frankly....YES!

 

You have to fulfill yourself! No one else can do it for you! Last time I read the bible, according to the story, Jesus bought your salvation from hell for when you DIE...WHERE does it say he takes the responsibility for making your LIFE worth something? Your DEATH is "fulfilled" based on this. Your LIFE is still yours to fill. Jeez End3!!!

 

You would be a Jesus Stalker if he were real! That is a creepy kind of relationship that NO ONE wants!!! No one wants to be someone else's EVERYTHING!!! And in the case of your supreme being...what would be the POINT? What does he get out of it? Your obsessive all consuming love? That's just great. Makes putting you on earth a pretty pointless action then.

 

An architect shows his wife a brand new building that he has designed from floor tile to toilet stall...he asks her "What do you think of what I made?" And she (having stared at him the whole time, oblivious to all) replies with "I love you, adore you, and lay my life before you."

 

Is HE fulfilled? Do you really think his wife's response has made him happy? Or does he feel like it was a total waste of time to show it to her?

 

I don't know why I'm bothering with this really...except you specifically asked me to by PM. Because none of your thought processes indicate that you will assess the analogy I just put down accurately at all, or that you will even understand it.

 

So what is it you want from me End3?

[MathGeek]

If humanity is empty, then why can I explain the concept of 'empty' in several different contexts?

 

Splain away Lucy...

 

Number one, I wrote that initial sentence. I am able to take miniscule, basic symbols and put them together to form long chains of symbols called words and sentences and I can do it with relative easy. Therefore, my head isn't empty. My brain is perfectly functional and able to be used at its fullest potential. If anybody suffers from such a deficiency, they are commonly called empty-headed or brain-dead.

 

Number two, the glass is always full therefore it is never empty. The glass is always full of something called air, which is a mixture of 78% nitrogen, 20% oxygen and about 2% of other inert gases. Such a complex substance can be found practically anywhere and everywhere on the earthen surface. Therefore, it is pointless to make metaphors about glasses being half-full and half-empty when there is no way to escape the medium that carries your voice so I can hear your whining about your life being unfulfilled.

 

Number three, I have emotional swings like you do but I am rather happy with the fact that I have taught mathematics to over 200 students and many of them have come away with a new understanding of the world around them. I am happy with the fact that I am a wage earner, a husband, a less-than-semi-successful poet, an unpublished novelist, and a traveler that really has an insatiable wanderlust. I consider my life to be fulfilling, but I have yearnings that may never be unfulfilled right now but I don't consider my life empty overall. The fact that you come here and whine at us for hating God sort of proves to us that you are the one that seems to be unfulfilled. If God is in control of everything, why does he need you as an apologist?

 

My life is not empty, but your religion is.