Hell

[Abiyoyo]

The whole hell topic has been on my mind lately. How is going to Hell pictured in the Bible?

Some of my thoughts and questions with hell are these.

 

Rev 21:27

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

(NKJ)

 

The book of life. If you are in the Book of life, you won't go to Hell. Right? He will acknowledge us His before God and the angels according to Revelations; and according to Matthew & Luke, if we confess Him before others He will confess us to God. That's what I got out the Book of life-Hell topic.

 

Rev 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(KJV)

 

Matt 10:32

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

(KJV)

 

Is the kingdom of God that Christ spoke of the same kingdom described in Revelations?

 

 

Luke 17:21

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(KJV)

 

 

I don't think it is. I challenge anyone that reads this to substitute 'the kingdom of God' with 'the Spirit of God'; Does this make sense? It makes more sense than ever to me and also sets away the traditional Hell picture.

 

Example: In Matthew it says The kingdom of heaven is at hand, and in Mark it says the kingdom of God is at hand.

 

What if it said this. The Spirit of God is at hand. Kingdom's root is the same throughout the New Testament. So, How is it within us? Kingdom is written as just that, a reign, place, dominion etc. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

 

The phrase was written by the disciples, two of which phrased it differently. Could it be possible that Jesus meant the Spirit of God, as in Acts. It says also that His spirit was on Jesus without measure according to John.

 

John 3:34

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

(KJV)

 

I would like to add that the only book that uses the 'kingdom of heaven' is Matthew. The rest use 'kingdom of God'. I don't think Jesus was talking about heaven as described in this.

 

Rev 21:1-27

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

(KJV)

 

Here are some words about hell from Christ.

 

Matt 16:18

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(KJV)

 

 

Luke 16:23-26

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(KJV)

 

So there is a hell that Jesus speaks of in a parable before Christ died (correct me if I'm wrong), which it says when He died He took the keys to hell.

 

Rev 1:18

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

(KJV)

 

If we were destined to be Hell bound, Why would Christ have said repent? or suggest it would be better to cut this or that off than to have it in hell?

 

What I believe. You have to be in the Book of life. 100% definite if you confess Christ's name and believe in Him. It was as simple as 'believe in me and you will have everlasting life'.

 

 

 

What are your thoughts about the topic?

[Ouroboros]

Why would God have to create Hell? The being over everlasting life and existence could not have come up with a better idea than to have billions of people suffering torture for eternity? That's my thought about it. Hell is just an outdated scare tactics to make people jump into the religious pit with the rest.

[Abiyoyo]

Why would God have to create Hell? The being over everlasting life and existence could not have come up with a better idea than to have billions of people suffering torture for eternity? That's my thought about it. Hell is just an outdated scare tactics to make people jump into the religious pit with the rest.

 

Thats my point Hans. I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning. Maybe God didn't create Hell. Supposedly, Satan is a fallen angel; wouldn't that make him the creator of the place. Why would billons of people suffer for eternity?

[nightflight]

Why would God have to create Hell? The being over everlasting life and existence could not have come up with a better idea than to have billions of people suffering torture for eternity? That's my thought about it. Hell is just an outdated scare tactics to make people jump into the religious pit with the rest.

 

Thats my point Hans. I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning. Maybe God didn't create Hell. Supposedly, Satan is a fallen angel; wouldn't that make him the creator of the place. Why would billons of people suffer for eternity?

 

So what do you think hell is? Eternal conscious torment or something else?

[The-Captain]

Well while we're throwing hell ideas around here's one I heard recently. In the Sandman graphic novels, hell is a place that Lucifer found when he fell and now presides over. It is the final destination of those who did evil, and knew that what they were doing was truly evil. They actually have the freedom to leave the place but stay out of a sense of masochistic guilt. A novel idea I thought, and just about as valid as any other conceptualization (just had to add the last part )

[white_raven23]

I don't think there is a hell.

 

But IF there were, and I'm only saying IF mind....

 

Our Hell would HAVE to be of our own making.

 

No one and nothing could do a better job orchestrating eternal suffering.

 

There are folks who prove that with their own lives.

 

Sort of a What Dreams May Come thing...YOU put yourself in Hell. Not because of actions on this earth, or because some invisible Grand Arbiter sentences you, or anything like that. But because that is what you decide to do to yourself.

 

Why not? Like I said, folks put themselves in living hell in their own lives over and over again. Why wouldn't they do that with an afterlife (if there is one) too?

[Abiyoyo]

So what do you think hell is? Eternal conscious torment or something else?

 

I don't know. Just not as widespread as the preachers say it is. They act like its the plague, and all the sinners are going. Like Hans said 'billions'; the people of the church need to clean the inside of their cup first, if you know what I mean. The difference is that the church people think billions, right now are going.

 

Well while we're throwing hell ideas around here's one I heard recently. In the Sandman graphic novels, hell is a place that Lucifer found when he fell and now presides over. It is the final destination of those who did evil, and knew that what they were doing was truly evil. They actually have the freedom to leave the place but stay out of a sense of masochistic guilt. A novel idea I thought, and just about as valid as any other conceptualization (just had to add the last part )

 

Something to think about.

 

 

.

No one and nothing could do a better job orchestrating eternal suffering.

 

There are folks who prove that with their own lives.

 

Do you suggest Hell is created by humans, as God would be also. If so, I say that is not really a connection. Why would people create a God for no obvious worldly profit, impossible moral laws, and an eternal death?

[florduh]

My question is why should we have to guess?

[Abiyoyo]

My question is why should we have to guess?

 

I don't know.

[Abiyoyo]

My question is why should we have to guess?

 

Why do you think people have to guess?

[Ouroboros]

Thats my point Hans. I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning. Maybe God didn't create Hell. Supposedly, Satan is a fallen angel; wouldn't that make him the creator of the place. Why would billons of people suffer for eternity?

Wouldn't that make Satan a creator and hence a God too? If Satan can create a place outside the existence of God, then Satan is a very powerful being, not much removed from God himself. Are you willing to believe that?

[florduh]

My question is why should we have to guess?

 

Why do you think people have to guess?

 

I'll bet you can guess my answer.

 

(Because the Bible is a jumble of conflicting, factually and historically incorrect, unclear writings that has nothing to do with an omnipotent and omniscient creator-god who wouldn't make it so difficult for his creations to understand him that thousands of sects and denominations would be formed with each thinking they have the correct interpretation when in fact there is no correct interpretation because there is nothing real to interpret in the first place but if people are afraid enough of Hell they can be manipulated by the priests and people can think they have avoided eternal torment of some sort by believing and thinking according to the rules as they have been explained to them.)

 

Did you guess?

[Abiyoyo]

Wouldn't that make Satan a creator and hence a God too? If Satan can create a place outside the existence of God, then Satan is a very powerful being, not much removed from God himself. Are you willing to believe that?

 

I do think Satan has God-like attributes even to the point of His own confusion that he can beat God. It is obvious Biblically that the dwelling, place,location of hell is accessible to God, as the scripture in the OP says. It is also safe to say Biblically, that whether God has allowed Satan's ruling in this location or not, Christ has taken it.

 

But to answer your question Hans. Yes. I believe Satan is not much removed from God. Have you ever seen the documentaries of demon possession and whatnot? Do you think they are hoax?

[Abiyoyo]

I'll bet you can guess my answer.

 

(Because the Bible is a jumble of conflicting, factually and historically incorrect, unclear writings that has nothing to do with an omnipotent and omniscient creator-god who wouldn't make it so difficult for his creations to understand him that thousands of sects and denominations would be formed with each thinking they have the correct interpretation when in fact there is no correct interpretation because there is nothing real to interpret in the first place but if people are afraid enough of Hell they can be manipulated by the priests and people can think they have avoided eternal torment of some sort by believing and thinking according to the rules as they have been explained to them.)

 

Did you guess?

 

Wow! What a sentence. I had to read it three times. You forgot something. Not to mention the people born into cultures without the knowledge of the Bible, or Jesus. Right?

 

jumble of conflicting, factually and historically incorrect, unclear writings that has nothing to do with an omnipotent and omniscient creator-god who wouldn't make it so difficult for his creations to understand

 

I understand this. But, would you feel the same way if you had no other resources? For example, you grew up during Renaissance era?

thousands of sects and denominations would be formed with each thinking they have the correct interpretation when in fact there is no correct interpretation because there is nothing real to interpret in the first place

 

Again, would you feel differently if this wasn't the case? There used to be only a few.

 

but if people are afraid enough of Hell they can be manipulated by the priests and people can think they have avoided eternal torment of some sort by believing and thinking according to the rules as they have been explained to them

 

That is popular belief, and I agree that the church has expounded that idea, but I will say that was kinda the point to this topic.

[Trike]

Why would God have to create Hell? The being over everlasting life and existence could not have come up with a better idea than to have billions of people suffering torture for eternity? That's my thought about it. Hell is just an outdated scare tactics to make people jump into the religious pit with the rest.

 

Thats my point Hans. I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning. Maybe God didn't create Hell. Supposedly, Satan is a fallen angel; wouldn't that make him the creator of the place. Why would billons of people suffer for eternity?

 

Oi vey, proper doctrine, dude. Satan cannot create, only God is the creator and Satan can only pervert or corrupt. The only act of creation in the universe happened when God said "let there be...". I agree with you that there is little Biblical evidence for hell, but your wishy-washy tripe about "well, maybe, I guess" smacks of heretical thought. Just thought you'd like to know, since you fancy yourself a Christian.

[Abiyoyo]

Oi vey, proper doctrine, dude. Satan cannot create, only God is the creator and Satan can only pervert or corrupt. The only act of creation in the universe happened when God said "let there be...". I agree with you that there is little Biblical evidence for hell, but your wishy-washy tripe about "well, maybe, I guess" smacks of heretical thought. Just thought you'd like to know, since you fancy yourself a Christian.

 

Been told that before, thanks. Satan wouldn't necessarily be creating in my thought, as you suggest. I read outside the 'doctrine'. But staying in the doctrine. I would say that what I mean by Satan creating hell would be the environment, atmosphere; the place where he is I would assume would be a already existent location not made to be hell, but created into hell by Satan and as you said earlier, pervert and corrupt ways.

[white_raven23]

.

No one and nothing could do a better job orchestrating eternal suffering.

 

There are folks who prove that with their own lives.

 

Do you suggest Hell is created by humans, as God would be also. If so, I say that is not really a connection. Why would people create a God for no obvious worldly profit, impossible moral laws, and an eternal death?

 

Yo-Yo, I really hate to burst your idealistic bubble regarding human nature, but the fact is people DO invent BS for worldly profit. People DID create standards of morality and projected them onto a superbeing to help justify and regulate their fellow man.

 

And people didn't create eternal death, they created the FEAR of eternal death. Whether or not we exist in any context beyond our physical bodies, though unlikely, the absolute answer is truly beyond anything you, I, or the writers of your moldy book can be certain of, seeing as NONE of us have experienced death yet. Except the writers of your book, but since they had NOT at the time of their writing, THEY had no relevant experience to impart beyond active imagination.

 

Now as for why people would do all that? Control. Or at least the illusion of control. Over other people, over life itself, you name it.

[florduh]

I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning.

 

Every Christian must twist the Bible (the sole source and basis for the religion) to make the message fit their idea of what makes sense or is palatable to their sensibilities.

 

Those who can relate to a vengeful god who will punish His (and their own) enemies will accept the verses that support that model. Kinder, gentler folks will try to explain away verses about Hell, cruelty and genocide, and focus on only the happy talk.

 

Equally strong cases can be made for many opposing doctrines. Just interpret it the way you like. Now you may relax, you're in that Book of Life and on your way to Heaven!

[Abiyoyo]

I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning.

 

Every Christian must twist the Bible (the sole source and basis for the religion) to make the message fit their idea of what makes sense or is palatable to their sensibilities.

 

Those who can relate to a vengeful god who will punish His (and their own) enemies will accept the verses that support that model. Kinder, gentler folks will try to explain away verses about Hell, cruelty and genocide, and focus on only the happy talk.

 

Equally strong cases can be made for many opposing doctrines. Just interpret it the way you like. Now you may relax, you're in that Book of Life and on your way to Heaven!

 

Take away the part about the kingdom of God being substituted. Read it in context for what it says. Do you think there shouldn't be a hell? Would you be so bold if I told you my friend was raped, beaten, then shot in the head!? Because I assure you that justice in human form would be enforced, and say the man never got caught and kept killing, raping, and beating; then he goes to live with God in peace; that would be ridiculous and absurd. The only option of possible reason would be that he just becomes dust, as we all do.

 

I am simply saying that the people that deserve to be in hell will be there, and all the hype from church is agreed by me to be just that, hype. Your statements to me is like saying a baby, from a rapist, should be killed because it was from a rapist.

 

You are full of crap

[nightflight]

Take away the part about the kingdom of God being substituted. Read it in context for what it says. Do you think there shouldn't be a hell? Would you be so bold if I told you my friend was raped, beaten, then shot in the head!? Because I assure you that justice in human form would be enforced, and say the man never got caught and kept killing, raping, and beating; then he goes to live with God in peace; that would be ridiculous and absurd. The only option of possible reason would be that he just becomes dust, as we all do.

 

So you believe in annihilationism?

[Abiyoyo]

Yo-Yo, I really hate to burst your idealistic bubble regarding human nature, but the fact is people DO invent BS for worldly profit. People DID create standards of morality and projected them onto a superbeing to help justify and regulate their fellow man.

 

And people didn't create eternal death, they created the FEAR of eternal death. Whether or not we exist in any context beyond our physical bodies, though unlikely, the absolute answer is truly beyond anything you, I, or the writers of your moldy book can be certain of, seeing as NONE of us have experienced death yet. Except the writers of your book, but since they had NOT at the time of their writing, THEY had no relevant experience to impart beyond active imagination.

 

Now as for why people would do all that? Control. Or at least the illusion of control. Over other people, over life itself, you name it.

 

Fear of eternal death, I agree was created. I think the first you hear about it is in the NT. The whole point of belief in Christ is the opposite of what you said though. No I can't do a study on life after death (just thought about B.I.G) but the hope that its there through Christ/God is just something I believe will happen.

[florduh]

Would you be so bold if I told you my friend was raped, beaten, then shot in the head!? Because I assure you that justice in human form would be enforced, and say the man never got caught and kept killing, raping, and beating; then he goes to live with God in peace; that would be ridiculous and absurd. The only option of possible reason would be that he just becomes dust, as we all do.

 

I am simply saying that the people that deserve to be in hell will be there, . . .

 

 

I think my signature line addresses that assumption.

 

As for my being full of crap, you are correct. I shall tend to that situation now. Thanks for reminding me.

[Abiyoyo]

Take away the part about the kingdom of God being substituted. Read it in context for what it says. Do you think there shouldn't be a hell? Would you be so bold if I told you my friend was raped, beaten, then shot in the head!? Because I assure you that justice in human form would be enforced, and say the man never got caught and kept killing, raping, and beating; then he goes to live with God in peace; that would be ridiculous and absurd. The only option of possible reason would be that he just becomes dust, as we all do.

 

So you believe in annihilationism?

 

No. I just think that today's hell is put out there misrepresented. For example, there are some people that would truly think if you don't go to church or be apart of church, your going to hell. That's a church extreme, then you have some that think everyone that has lied are going to hell. Not as extreme, but still mislead.

[Abiyoyo]

As for my being full of crap, you are correct. I shall tend to that situation now. Thanks for reminding me.

 

You too!

[GraphicsGuy]

Maybe God didn't create Hell. Supposedly, Satan is a fallen angel; wouldn't that make him the creator of the place.

 

Lucifer was framed. Yahweh's the evil mastermind.