Hell

[Vigile]

Why would God have to create Hell? The being over everlasting life and existence could not have come up with a better idea than to have billions of people suffering torture for eternity? That's my thought about it. Hell is just an outdated scare tactics to make people jump into the religious pit with the rest.

 

Thats my point Hans. I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning. Maybe God didn't create Hell. Supposedly, Satan is a fallen angel; wouldn't that make him the creator of the place. Why would billons of people suffer for eternity?

 

God can't have it both ways. If he is creator and omniscient then he created hell when he created satan.

[Tabula Rasa]

Disclaimer:If anyone is still struggling with hell fears, please do not read the following.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yo-Yo, I want you to think about something: If Yahweh created the universe knowing satan would rebel and all of it's consequences. Created humanity knowing they'd fail the test of the tree and the whole human race would be damned.

requiring Christ to die on the cross for humanity to be "saved".... well Yo-Yo, if this is the case...

 

THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS HELL(heaven included) because it was created by a God who is so full of hate and malice, that he'd create thinking beings, just so he could offer them the options of either groveling at his feet praising him , or screaming and crying forever in eternal torment.

 

A Supreme Being, an omnipotent god could come up with a much better way to reconcile itself with humans. Honestly though, an omnipotent god wouldn't need to reconcile itself with man because there'd be nothing to reconcile. How can tiny little beings like us insult the transcendent, the infinite? If God exists, it is far beyond us, it even being pointless to try to even put a scale on such a being because it would be sizeless, and be BEYOND anything our minds can imagine , especially the minds of superstitious bronze age men.

 

Yo-Yo, whether there's a God or not, it's name isn't Yahweh, or Christ, or Allah, and the universe is not ruled by a vicious tyrant.

 

Tabula Rasa

Curious deist

[Saviourmachine]

Hell is:

 

inventing the concept hell and talk about it all the time.

[Ouroboros]

I do think Satan has God-like attributes even to the point of His own confusion that he can beat God. It is obvious Biblically that the dwelling, place,location of hell is accessible to God, as the scripture in the OP says. It is also safe to say Biblically, that whether God has allowed Satan's ruling in this location or not, Christ has taken it.

But you do admit that Satan must have the capacity of creating Hell, a place outside of God's will, right? If it was within God's will, then there is no difference between God creating it or Satan, but if it is outside of God's will, Satan really got God-like attributes.

 

But to answer your question Hans. Yes. I believe Satan is not much removed from God. Have you ever seen the documentaries of demon possession and whatnot? Do you think they are hoax?

Oh, demon possession and Hell! Finally do we get a chance of talking about that too!

 

First to answer your question, hoax is the wrong word to use, but I do not think they are real demons. There are psychological explanations. People can behave in accordance with expected behavior when under the influence of mass-hysteria. I think "demon possession" is psychogenic and not supernatural.

 

Okay, lets see. Let me then ask you, does a person choose to become demon possessed?

[agnosticator]

One doctrine that exposes the scam of the new testament:

 

If you don't believe, you will be punished no matter how kind you are.

[Ouroboros]

No. I just think that today's hell is put out there misrepresented. For example, there are some people that would truly think if you don't go to church or be apart of church, your going to hell. That's a church extreme, then you have some that think everyone that has lied are going to hell. Not as extreme, but still mislead.

According to the Bible (IIRC) the Church is the body of Christ, which is all the truly saved ones. Whoever honestly believe in Jesus. And if I interpret your earlier post right, only those who believe in Jesus will go to Heaven (but I could I misunderstood you). That would make the same argument as you are trying to argue against above. You have to be saved or be part of the Church as the body of Christ to be saved. Right?

[florduh]

I just think that today's hell is put out there misrepresented.

 

And other Christians think it is you who have it wrong.

 

The desire for immortality, justice in the universe, and supernatural aid for those in distress is so strong that mankind has invented several scenarios that address those things. The need to believe in something that saves us in the end, and balances the scale, is prevalent in the human race. People latch on to the beliefs which are common to their respective culture and defend those beliefs - often to the death.

 

How does one choose the one that is correct? They can't all be right, because many are clearly in conflict with each other. None of the belief systems have any evidence that they are presenting a true picture of reality.

 

Essentially, you believe one thing, another Christian believes another, the Mormon believes another, the Muslim extremist believes in the same god but still wants to kill you, and so on. No one has the slightest proof that what they think is valid, so what is your point? Do you have any proof to offer that there is a God, a Heaven, a Hell, and if you prove that Hell exists can you offer evidence that everyone else is wrong about its nature and your idea is correct?

 

Nitpicking Christian doctrine might be more fruitful in a forum where others take it seriously. I'm just saying . . .

[Guest kcdad]

I think Hell has been misrepresented since the beginning.

 

Every Christian must twist the Bible (the sole source and basis for the religion) to make the message fit their idea of what makes sense or is palatable to their sensibilities.

 

This is not a true statement. The "basis" for Christianity is so much more than The Bible.. there are the writings of the early church fathers, there are the creeds and other agreements that came out of Nicea, Worms and other places. Tradition is probably a greater contributor to Christianity than the scriptures, which all of you are so quick and eager to point out is not very consistent nor definitive anyway.

 

The oral traditions from which The Bible was written is another very important basis to the religions of Christianity.

 

In Judaism, the Midrash writings in the Talmud are possibly as important as the Torah or Tanakh.

 

In Methodism, John Wesley insisted there were four parts to the faith; Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience.

[The-Captain]

This is not a true statement. The "basis" for Christianity is so much more than The Bible.. there are the writings of the early church fathers, there are the creeds and other agreements that came out of Nicea, Worms and other places. Tradition is probably a greater contributor to Christianity than the scriptures, which all of you are so quick and eager to point out is not very consistent nor definitive anyway.

 

Yes, but post canon all these later theologies, councils, and writings are derived from the Bible right?

[par4dcourse]

I'll bet you can guess my answer.

 

(Because the Bible is a jumble of conflicting, factually and historically incorrect, unclear writings that has nothing to do with an omnipotent and omniscient creator-god who wouldn't make it so difficult for his creations to understand him that thousands of sects and denominations would be formed with each thinking they have the correct interpretation when in fact there is no correct interpretation because there is nothing real to interpret in the first place but if people are afraid enough of Hell they can be manipulated by the priests and people can think they have avoided eternal torment of some sort by believing and thinking according to the rules as they have been explained to them.)

 

Did you guess?

 

My thoughts exactly. You said it better than I could've. No one should be studying the babble for anything other than historic or social glimpses.

[Abiyoyo]

God can't have it both ways. If he is creator and omniscient then he created hell when he created satan.

 

I explained it in a earlier post, but to shorten it up; God created Satan along with all else, and Satan in his acts created the abode of Hell, location and atmosphere. That was my idea.

 

A Supreme Being, an omnipotent god could come up with a much better way to reconcile itself with humans. Honestly though, an omnipotent god wouldn't need to reconcile itself with man because there'd be nothing to reconcile. How can tiny little beings like us insult the transcendent, the infinite? If God exists, it is far beyond us, it even being pointless to try to even put a scale on such a being because it would be sizeless, and be BEYOND anything our minds can imagine , especially the minds of superstitious bronze age men.

 

Yo-Yo, whether there's a God or not, it's name isn't Yahweh, or Christ, or Allah, and the universe is not ruled by a vicious tyrant.

 

I see your point. I don't know why God created us, to fall short of His way. That's a mystery to all. I think outside the box alittle when it comes to the Bible. It's not infallible to me, it is not hand written by God. I read it as a cultural accumulation of stories, writings from different people, times, situations. Basically, my attachment isn't all that correct. I don't believe everything because the Bible tells me so. I read outside the Bible, I choose to believe in the Christian faith, God.

 

Hell is:

 

inventing the concept hell and talk about it all the time.

 

To tell you the truth, I haven't thought of it that much nor discussed it much, and some people close to me got me thinking into it. I believe God is, so I would have to also believe that Satan is too. Hell would follow that. But thats where I'm at. Maybe Satan was created by people because of our failures?

[Abiyoyo]

But you do admit that Satan must have the capacity of creating Hell, a place outside of God's will, right? If it was within God's will, then there is no difference between God creating it or Satan, but if it is outside of God's will, Satan really got God-like attributes.

 

Oh, demon possession and Hell! Finally do we get a chance of talking about that too!

 

First to answer your question, hoax is the wrong word to use, but I do not think they are real demons. There are psychological explanations. People can behave in accordance with expected behavior when under the influence of mass-hysteria. I think "demon possession" is psychogenic and not supernatural.

 

Okay, lets see. Let me then ask you, does a person choose to become demon possessed?

 

No, I don't believe Satan has that power; he either is incredibly ignorant, or has just enough power to confuse himself to think he can overcome the God that created him. Then again, outside the Bible, a different picture is painted of Satan. He's pictured more of a confined entity of God's that is pissed we are here, and tries to destroy us every chance he can. I could picture that even staying in the Bible without the details.

 

I 'm not sure if someone chooses to become demon possessed, I really never studied into that topic a whole lot. I watched this movie once about a girl that was demon possessed, supposedly based on true events. The girl was speaking in an ancient language, the priest was translating and all, her going crazy etc. Anyhow, later in the movie the sceptic of the event where asking all these questions about her education. She was taught all these languages and studied deeply in Christianity. She was Catholic. I thought afterward. The girl was super religious is what they said, so Did she possess herself or was it really a demon? Dunno

[Abiyoyo]

No. I just think that today's hell is put out there misrepresented. For example, there are some people that would truly think if you don't go to church or be apart of church, your going to hell. That's a church extreme, then you have some that think everyone that has lied are going to hell. Not as extreme, but still mislead.

According to the Bible (IIRC) the Church is the body of Christ, which is all the truly saved ones. Whoever honestly believe in Jesus. And if I interpret your earlier post right, only those who believe in Jesus will go to Heaven (but I could I misunderstood you). That would make the same argument as you are trying to argue against above. You have to be saved or be part of the Church as the body of Christ to be saved. Right?

 

Thats an unknown. I can't say that the Jews are going to hell. Why would they, they are God's original people. But, from the scriptures I studied Biblically, Jesus is the main way. I says He will confess our name to God. Are the Lamb's Book of life and the Book of life the same book?

[Abiyoyo]

I just think that today's hell is put out there misrepresented.

 

And other Christians think it is you who have it wrong.

 

The desire for immortality, justice in the universe, and supernatural aid for those in distress is so strong that mankind has invented several scenarios that address those things. The need to believe in something that saves us in the end, and balances the scale, is prevalent in the human race. People latch on to the beliefs which are common to their respective culture and defend those beliefs - often to the death.

 

How does one choose the one that is correct? They can't all be right, because many are clearly in conflict with each other. None of the belief systems have any evidence that they are presenting a true picture of reality.

 

Essentially, you believe one thing, another Christian believes another, the Mormon believes another, the Muslim extremist believes in the same god but still wants to kill you, and so on. No one has the slightest proof that what they think is valid, so what is your point? Do you have any proof to offer that there is a God, a Heaven, a Hell, and if you prove that Hell exists can you offer evidence that everyone else is wrong about its nature and your idea is correct?

 

Nitpicking Christian doctrine might be more fruitful in a forum where others take it seriously. I'm just saying . . .

 

I understand your view Florduh. I have seen alot of discussions on these forums about Hell, and I never thought into it a whole lot. So, I wanted to put my thoughts out there. I like the different aspects of this forum, respect it, and look into other information given out.

 

As far as proof God exists, I don't have it. People have worshiped many things in human history. I choose the God of Israel, and Jesus.

[Ouroboros]

No, I don't believe Satan has that power; he either is incredibly ignorant, or has just enough power to confuse himself to think he can overcome the God that created him. Then again, outside the Bible, a different picture is painted of Satan. He's pictured more of a confined entity of God's that is pissed we are here, and tries to destroy us every chance he can. I could picture that even staying in the Bible without the details.

So Satan does not have the power to create Hell, but he created Hell... ???

 

I 'm not sure if someone chooses to become demon possessed, I really never studied into that topic a whole lot. I watched this movie once about a girl that was demon possessed, supposedly based on true events. The girl was speaking in an ancient language, the priest was translating and all, her going crazy etc. Anyhow, later in the movie the sceptic of the event where asking all these questions about her education. She was taught all these languages and studied deeply in Christianity. She was Catholic. I thought afterward. The girl was super religious is what they said, so Did she possess herself or was it really a demon? Dunno

If demons can possess people against their will, or even without them knowing it, and then the demons can make people act and do things they normally wouldn't do or approve off, would you think they still are guilty of the crimes they did under the forced influence? In other words, if someone curse God because the demon in them force them to do it, is the person guilty of blasphemy?

[Ouroboros]

Thats an unknown. I can't say that the Jews are going to hell. Why would they, they are God's original people. But, from the scriptures I studied Biblically, Jesus is the main way. I says He will confess our name to God. Are the Lamb's Book of life and the Book of life the same book?

Why would God be so unclear on this that you, as a devout Christian, can't know for sure the answer?

[Saviourmachine]

To tell you the truth, I haven't thought of it that much nor discussed it much, and some people close to me got me thinking into it. I believe God is, so I would have to also believe that Satan is too. Hell would follow that. But thats where I'm at. Maybe Satan was created by people because of our failures?

I infer that you believe that God exist, and is not invented. So, it's time to think about another hypothesis, I suppose. If you feel right with that. I hope the sentence about failures, does not reflect your worldview on your life or life in general. Of course, people make failures, that's how you learn. The school system is build such that all creativity dies, you are not allowed to make errors, think out of the box. As Ken Robinson says, professors, who seem to be what everybody should become if you take the current education system, are brains that use a body to move themselves. There is no sports, no dancing, no yoga sex. :-)

 

What are failures? Disabled people? What a nonsense! People can have terrific lives totally independent on their physical abilities. And if it's a problem, then we have to work on it of course. Like described at ted.com by Alan Russell who shows how a fingertip regrows by using stem cells that regenerate tissue. Did you ever see that done in a church? I don't give a damn about Jesus, Allah, Buddha. This world is not about them. If you can think up a good reason for the conceptual existence of hell, give it a try, but I doubt it.

[florduh]

Why would God be so unclear on this that you, as a devout Christian, can't know for sure the answer?

 

Maybe he'll address the question for you. I certainly got nowhere by asking it.

[mahjong]

Maybe this is obvious to everyone else and I'm just 'duh', but it seems to me that YoYo is not really sincerely debating anyone here but trying to get people, in some round-about way, to question their dis-belief in god here. It is interesting to see what all you ex-christians have to say, tho.

[florduh]

Maybe this is obvious to everyone else and I'm just 'duh', but it seems to me that YoYo is not really sincerely debating anyone here but trying to get people, in some round-about way, to question their dis-belief in god here. It is interesting to see what all you ex-christians have to say, tho.

 

Yeah, that's what it is. Just some fun (at least for me). Duh!

 

I gave up hoping for a useful debate years ago. Faith must always trump logic. There is no way to effectively argue against a deliberately irrational belief.

 

Everyone I've ever encountered who thinks Christianity or the Bible (or other woo-woo) is the Truth if understood correctly, has only unfounded beliefs and guesswork to back it up. They choose to believe something they can accept and then stick with. It seems just that simple to me.

[Saviourmachine]

Maybe this is obvious to everyone else and I'm just 'duh', but it seems to me that YoYo is not really sincerely debating anyone here but trying to get people, in some round-about way, to question their dis-belief in god here. It is interesting to see what all you ex-christians have to say, tho.

I sometimes respond, not because the question is so justified, or for the good intention of the one posting, but to respect the one posting nevertheless. There is a person behind this post, and for whatever reason, he/she might be worth a little of my time. But yeah, I am here not very often, so you all are much generous in that aspect than I will ever be. ;-)

[Abiyoyo]

So Satan does not have the power to create Hell, but he created Hell... ???

 

If demons can possess people against their will, or even without them knowing it, and then the demons can make people act and do things they normally wouldn't do or approve off, would you think they still are guilty of the crimes they did under the forced influence? In other words, if someone curse God because the demon in them force them to do it, is the person guilty of blasphemy?

 

Hans. What I mean is that Satan created his own character, defined it from his actions, others have followed him; and they have an abode somewhere in God's already created universe, which we call Hell. Thus, Satan didn't create Hell as God created, Satan is like us as far as freewill, but not a human. That's what I implied by Godlike, not a God though.

 

No, I wouldn't think the human is guilty. But I'm not God. Jesus a few times removed demons from people and in one instance it says the person was a total different person not recognizable.

[Ouroboros]

Hans. What I mean is that Satan created his own character, defined it from his actions, others have followed him; and they have an abode somewhere in God's already created universe, which we call Hell. Thus, Satan didn't create Hell as God created, Satan is like us as far as freewill, but not a human. That's what I implied by Godlike, not a God though.

So Satan is the First Cause of Evil? In other words, not everything came from God.

 

No, I wouldn't think the human is guilty. But I'm not God. Jesus a few times removed demons from people and in one instance it says the person was a total different person not recognizable.

If a person is possessed and fool the person into believing that God does not exist, or maybe to believe that Jesus isn't the salvation, does that person deserve Hell?

[nightflight]

So Satan does not have the power to create Hell, but he created Hell... ???

 

If demons can possess people against their will, or even without them knowing it, and then the demons can make people act and do things they normally wouldn't do or approve off, would you think they still are guilty of the crimes they did under the forced influence? In other words, if someone curse God because the demon in them force them to do it, is the person guilty of blasphemy?

 

Hans. What I mean is that Satan created his own character, defined it from his actions, others have followed him; and they have an abode somewhere in God's already created universe, which we call Hell. Thus, Satan didn't create Hell as God created, Satan is like us as far as freewill, but not a human. That's what I implied by Godlike, not a God though.

 

No, I wouldn't think the human is guilty. But I'm not God. Jesus a few times removed demons from people and in one instance it says the person was a total different person not recognizable.

 

Does Satan have a brain? How does he think? That goes for the "demons" as well. Do they have brains? How do they think and communicate? How do they, as "spiritual beings" interact with matter? How can they possess humans? What is the mechanism used by demons to influence people?

 

Just a few questions.

[Abiyoyo]

Thats an unknown. I can't say that the Jews are going to hell. Why would they, they are God's original people. But, from the scriptures I studied Biblically, Jesus is the main way. I says He will confess our name to God. Are the Lamb's Book of life and the Book of life the same book?

Why would God be so unclear on this that you, as a devout Christian, can't know for sure the answer?

 

Jesus was sent for the Jews, He even said that. Right? But, God made Him a light to all people. Peter didn't even understand this until his vision in Acts. Jesus addressed the Jews. Are you talking about those not born, raised around Christianity etc?