Once again - questions about Hell

[thomas]

Let's assume, that the Christians here are right, and that God some day will send all the sinners to Hell.

 

Here are my two questions:

 

1.

 

When the day finally comes and God sends most of his creation to Hell, will it be a happy day for God? Will God be happy with himself and say:

 

Good, now my struggle is over, now I can talke it easy, all the evil people are now where they belong.

 

Or will God say:.

 

Oh what a sad day. I have just send most of my creation to Hell, but there were nothing I could do about it. I have already tried everything, but it didn't work. Why did I create free will in the first place? I cannot solve the problem now. Althougt I have an eternity in front of me, I know that I will never be able to find a solution. What a sad day.

 

 

2.

 

Second question. Why does God send people to hell? Does He want to:

 

a: Teach them a lesson, so they may repent

b: Get revenge for sin.

[crazy-tiger]

Let's assume, that the Christians here are right, and that God some day will send all the sinners to Hell.

 

Here are my two questions:

 

1.

 

When the day finally comes and God sends most of his creation to Hell, will it be a happy day for God? Will God be happy with himself and say:

 

Good, now my struggle is over, now I can talke it easy, all the evil people are now where they belong. 

 

Or will God say:.

 

Oh what a sad day. I have just send most of my creation to Hell, but there were nothing I could do about it. I have already tried everything, but it didn't work. Why did I create free will in the first place? I cannot solve the problem now. Althougt I have an eternity in front of me, I know that I will never be able to find a solution. What a sad day. 

The first one of course.

2.

 

Second question. Why does God send people to hell? Does He want to:

 

a: Teach them a lesson, so they may repent

b: Get revenge for sin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, there's no repenting once you're in hell, so it must be for revenge...

 

What a loving God he is.

[Vixentrox]

God likes the smell of burning flesh after all.

[Mike D]

Why does God send people to hell?

No no no, you've got it all wrong! God doesn't send anyone to hell, we send ourselves there by disbelieving stories about talking snakes, virgin births, whores riding around on dragons, or that a half god/half man was sacraficed to save us, etc. By not believing those things, we choose of our own free will to go to hell. And don't forget, God created hell for us to choose to go to because he loved us so much as to not make us robots! Isn't God's perfect love for us amazing?? Praise Jesus, amen!

 

I hope i've been able to clear up your confusion about this issue

[thomas]

I hope i've been able to clear up your confusion about this issue 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With your answer to "Any gods?" in mind, your message is quite clear .

But I am disapponted, that no one of the True Christians wants to enlighten us on this matter.

[Amanda]

Let's assume, that the Christians here are right, and that God some day will send all the sinners to Hell.

 

Here are my two questions:

 

1.

 

When the day finally comes and God sends most of his creation to Hell, will it be a happy day for God? Will God be happy with himself and say:

 

Good, now my struggle is over, now I can talke it easy, all the evil people are now where they belong. 

 

Or will God say:.

 

Oh what a sad day. I have just send most of my creation to Hell, but there were nothing I could do about it. I have already tried everything, but it didn't work. Why did I create free will in the first place? I cannot solve the problem now. Althougt I have an eternity in front of me, I know that I will never be able to find a solution. What a sad day. 

2.

 

Second question. Why does God send people to hell? Does He want to:

 

a: Teach them a lesson, so they may repent

b: Get revenge for sin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thomas, good questions and perspectives!

 

My personal beliefs are that EVERYONE is saved, and NO ONE goes to hell for all times. Hell, to me, is mostly a personal state within one's self... as heaven is also. The side that wins, is the side we feed the most... and eventually, my belief is that heaven wins for all.

 

The word 'fire' is the Greek word 'purose', coming from the word 'pur' which means to cleanse intensely. Fire was the way they sterilized things and got rid of their rubbish. The meaning of 'brimstone' is 'divine' so maybe 'fire and brinstone' means to divinely cleanse intensely. Damnation means judgement. We all spend time in hell from time to time, once we receive judgment from an outside source, Karma, or our own inner revelations. Perhaps, these repercussions of our actions could be the hell that cleanses us from a way that was detrimental... disrespecting self or someone else?

 

My beliefs is that the land formed from volcanos, and if one didn't know the word 'lava' in those days... they may of referred to it as the 'lake of fire.' Perhaps we are standing on it, receiving the consequences of our actions/beliefs... and therefore have weeping and gnashing of teeth? Maybe if one does not have any foundations on which to stand... that is the bottomless pit?

 

The Bible says that we die once and then there is judgement, researching this word 'judgment' comes from the meaning to make pure as crystal. Why would God go through the trouble of refining one to the point that they have nothing opposing the 'light' and the 'light' shines right through them... then he throws them away!?!? I don't think so.

[Checkmate]

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(NKJV)

 

Amanda, I find it amazing how well you are able to cherry-pick from your bible, thus ignoring what does NOT support your "beliefs". But it is clear HERE in Revelations, that men and women and children will be judged and damned to torment. Not a "purging" or "purification". The bible says NO such thing. YOUR view is a matter of YOUR opinion and wishful thinking. IF you can produce solid evidence from your bible to prove otherwise, I'd be happy to examine such.

 

I am not saying you are not entitled to your fantasies, but please, don't insult us by claiming that the bible...YOUR bible...doesn't teach eternal damnation. It does.

 

And as for your word study on judgment? I looked it up in my New Testament word search program. I got 73 hits. TWO uses only. The following are the Strong's definition of each use:

 

Krisis (kree'-sis); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 2920

 

a separating, sundering, separation

a trial, contest

selection

judgment

opinion or decision given concerning anything

esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong

sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment

the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)

right, justice

 

and,

 

Krima (kree'-mah);

Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2917

 

a decree, judgments

judgment

condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others

in a forensic sense

the sentence of a judge.

the punishment with which one is sentenced.

condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence.

a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court.

 

Absolutely NOTHING about "making pure as crystal". I would deary LOVE to know from whence you arrived at your knowledge of the Greek usage for "judgment". I'm certain the good people of Strong's concordance would as well.

 

However, setting aside for the moment root definitions of words, it is still inescapable that the INTENT behind the use of "judgment" here in the bible was for the purpose of declaring damnation and punishment. NOT "to purify".

 

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than this to convince me of your "Universal" salvation theology. Not that I care one way or the other, but it would be nice if you could give people something upon which to hang their hat BESIDES your opinion.

[TruthWarrior]

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

For how long? That's the real question.

 

The book o' Revelation is very symbolic. Trick is deciphering what the hell it means.

[Amanda]

Mr. Grinch, you quoted this from the Bible in this post in which I'm responding now:

"Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(NKJV)"

 

My response:

 

Revelation 20

20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Says that it is the devil that is cast in the lake of fire... the deceiver, the author of confusion... not people!

 

(Note brimstone means: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/...303&version=kjv

 

brimstone

divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease)

 

The first verse of Revelation states this book is about the revealing of Jesus written in signs and symbols...

 

Revelation 1

1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

In 20:11, I believe we are the throne in which Christ sits, and there is no room left for the devil and his demons mentioned in the prior verse.

20:12, I believe we are the 'books' (aka scrolls/letters) opened (2 Corinthians 3:3) Additionally, the name in the book of life... I believe there is only ONE name, name... a way to know and identify someone... and that name is Holy... Holy be thy name.

20:13, Once hell has finished with its purification process

20:14, There is no more need for death and hell

20:15, And if your name isn't Holy, then you get to come here and do this purification process again... till you are identified as Holy.

 

Amanda, I find it amazing how well you are able to cherry-pick from your bible, thus ignoring what does NOT support your "beliefs".  But it is clear HERE in Revelations, that men and women and children will be judged and damned to torment.  Not a "purging" or "purification".  The bible says NO such thing.  YOUR view is a matter of YOUR opinion and wishful thinking.  IF you can produce solid evidence from your bible to prove otherwise, I'd be happy to examine such. 

 

I am not saying you are not entitled to your fantasies, but please, don't insult us by claiming that the bible...YOUR bible...doesn't teach eternal damnation.  It does.

 

And as for your word study on judgment?  I looked it up in my New Testament word search program.  I got 73 hits.  TWO uses only.  The following are the Strong's definition of each use:

 

Krisis (kree'-sis);  Noun Feminine, Strong #: 2920

 

a separating, sundering, separation

a trial, contest

selection

judgment

opinion or decision given concerning anything

esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong

sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment

the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)

right, justice

 

and,

 

Krima (kree'-mah);

Word Origin: Greek,  Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2917

 

a decree, judgments

judgment

condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others

in a forensic sense

the sentence of a judge.

the punishment with which one is sentenced.

condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence.

a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court.

 

Absolutely NOTHING about "making pure as crystal".  I would deary LOVE to know from whence you arrived at your knowledge of the Greek usage for "judgment".  I'm certain the good people of Strong's concordance would as well.

 

However, setting aside for the moment root definitions of words, it is still inescapable that the INTENT behind the use of "judgment" here in the bible was for the purpose of declaring damnation and punishment.  NOT "to purify".

 

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than this to convince me of your "Universal" salvation theology.  Not that I care one way or the other, but it would be nice if you could give people something upon which to hang their hat BESIDES your opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do apologize for my inaccurate reference to judgment meaning to make clear as crystal, although at the time I was researching a subject... and became aware of an interpretation I remember associated with judgment... I was unaware I'd be on ANY forum... I neglected to research it before I posted ( a lesson now learned)... as I felt sure of its definition. I agree I was wrong on that particular definition in that verse, and I am unable to recall the process in which I derived that conclusion right now. I had NO intention of 'insulting' anyone's intelligence, quite the contrary!

 

Yet even in the book of Revelations, I do think that judgment is a method in which to justify the metaphor to make one pure as crystal... hence, these verses found in that book in which I believe 'crystals' are symbols relating to us:

 

Re 4:6

and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.

 

Re 21:11

having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.

 

Re 22:1

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb ,

 

Also, I think another symbolism to this of ourselves in Revelations is that WE are the incense given to God... burning off our carnal nature till we are left in pure spirit form... being a sweet smell to God

 

Re 8:3

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

 

Re 8:4

And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

 

I am NOT trying to convince anyone of universal salvation, merely stating it as my belief. One thing concerning this personal conclusion... I believe that Jesus came to save the world... and I believe he never fails. God said that if he had a hundred sheep and one got lost... he'd leave the ninety-nine to go get the one... and I believe God never fails. Other verses, if you are interested are Romans 5:18, John 10:16, John 1:9, Romans 14:11, 1 Timothy 1:10, 1 Corinthians 12:5,6... and I do have more... It seems that many on this site agree that a God any other way, does NOT make sense.

[Guest no surprises]

Thomas, you said:

"Let's assume, that the Christians here are right, and that God some day will send all the sinners to Hell."

1st off, the Bible says in Rom 3:23, 'for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God' My understanding is that we are sinners...I sin every day. Your premise as stated would lead me to believe that no one will escape a fiery dip in the old hot springs. I think that your questions are valid, however the definition of Hell is very important in this discussion. Hell to one person may very well be heaven to another. For example, I consider myself a follower of Christ. I believe that He lived a life that is worth imitating. I want to spend eternity with Him, Eternity separated from Him, whether it's 20 degrees or 220 degrees out, wouldn't matter to me...I would be very disappointed, for a very long stretch of time. For someone that doesn't believe in Jesus Christ, or possibly his Deity, crucifixion...etc etc. It would be hell to spend eternity in His presence, surrounded by a bunch of once fundies saying hallelulah all the time. Many folks spend their life here on earth getting as far away from Christ/Christians as they can. I don't understand how anyone that would potentially be granted this wish for all of time would be disappointed...I don't think it's revenge, or necessarily a punishment...I simply think that it's a Creator giving His creation a choice of where they want to spend eternity...with or without Christ. Just my opinion, not necessarily the opinion of every Christian, or even the majority of Christians.

[thomas]

I don't understand how anyone that would potentially be granted this wish for all of time would be disappointed...I don't think it's revenge, or necessarily a punishment...I simply think that it's a Creator giving His creation a choice of where they want to spend eternity...with or without Christ.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why do Christians then evangelize? Why not follow the godly approach and let people have what they wish?

 

And another question. If people regret their choise, will the Christian God then allow people to choose again? You know, just like a hotel where you have booked a single room, but when you arrive you find out that a double room will be more in line with your needs.

[Vigile]

simply think that it's a Creator giving His creation a choice of where they want to spend eternity...with or without Christ.

 

He's the creator, you said it yourself. It means that he is the one that CREATED only TWO choices; salvation or wildly horific pain forever, and ever, and ever, and ev...

 

Give me a minute or two and I in my finite wisdom could come up with 10 or 20 other viable choices. Your god is a monster and you get down on your knees and worship this beast. I don't get it.

 

BTW, not everyone receives an equal choice.

[Guest no surprises]

Why do Christians then evangelize? Why not follow the godly approach and let people have what they wish?

 

And another question. If people regret their choise, will the Christian God then allow people to choose again? You know, just like a hotel where you have booked a single room, but when you arrive you find out that a double room will be more in line with your needs.

 

Realistically, I would be surprised if more than 10% of people that call themselves "Christians" are involved in any type of evangelistic effort at all.  I head a Christian Ministry, and am involved in evangelism, but it isn't anything like many people envision...there are no tracts, no turn or burn scare tactics, no emotional pleas, no salesmanship.  We are in the poorest, most drug-ridden area in the inner city of Spokane...the police call it Felony flats.  We care for people's physical needs, if a relationship is built, we address their emotional needs.  Then, and only if they want...their spiritual life is addressed.  If after 2 yrs they have no interest in spiritual things...guess what?  We continue to feed them, sometimes house them, help them with employment...and above all continue loving them, and accepting them the way they are.

 

On the 2nd ?  I don't see anything in the Bible that would indicate that anyone gets a second chance...we have our time here on earth to make that decision...If you find that you have no need for Christ, then he honors your wishes for eternity.

 

 

He's the creator, you said it yourself. It means that he is the one that CREATED only TWO choices; salvation or wildly horific pain forever, and ever, and ever, and ev...

 

Give me a minute or two and I in my finite wisdom could come up with 10 or 20 other viable choices. Your god is a monster and you get down on your knees and worship this beast. I don't get it.

 

BTW, not everyone receives an equal choice.

 

I said that He created two choices...eternity with Him or eternity without Him. I think that torture for an exchristian could be eternity in heaven with Jesus Christ. Everyday having your grandma scolding you, saying "I told you so." And that annoying neighbor reminding you "I invited you to church 22 times in 10 yrs." That Sunday school teacher repeatedly asking"Were you listening to anything I said?" You'll have to elaborate on the equal choice thing...I will be the first to tell you that life isn't fair...

[Mr. Neil]

I think that torture for an exchristian could be eternity in heaven with Jesus Christ.  Everyday having your grandma scolding you, saying "I told you so."  And that annoying neighbor reminding you "I invited you to church 22 times in 10 yrs."  That Sunday school teacher repeatedly asking"Were you listening to anything I said?"  You'll have to elaborate on the equal choice thing...I will be the first to tell you that life isn't fair...

Ah, the wet dream of every Christian. The day that they arrive in the afterlife and discover that it was all true! Reminds me of that one episode of Family Guy where the Pope smites Brian and Stewie, and the nothing happens. Then he says, "He's cooking something up."

 

Christians can't wait for the unbelievers to find out that they're wrong. They sit up at night awake, chuckling to themselves about that day when it comes.

 

Of course, if your scenario ever happened, and I found myself in Heaven being dogged by old relatives because I didn't go to church, the first thing out of my mouth would be, "Well, I'm here, so apparently I didn't have to go to that stuffy building. I was justified to stay in bed. I may have been wrong but so were you!" It would seem that God applauds intellectual honesty.

 

Incidentally, the torture wouldn't be the nagging. It would be the knowledge that loved ones are in Hell and there's nothing I can do for them.

 

Luckily, I don't believe in invisible magic beings.

 

The only thing that sucks about atheism is we know that when the brain is gone, so is the person, and thus there is no satisfaction of the Christian's disappointment at the end.

[dogmatically_challenged]

no surprises

Many folks spend their life here on earth getting as far away from Christ/Christians as they can. I don't understand how anyone that would potentially be granted this wish for all of time would be disappointed...I don't think it's revenge, or necessarily a punishment...I simply think that it's a Creator giving His creation a choice of where they want to spend eternity...with or without Christ. Just my opinion, not necessarily the opinion of every Christian, or even the majority of Christians.

How about the option of oblivian. Dude even if I was a xer I wouldnt want to live forever no matter wear I was. Immortality is more scary than death. Think about it.

 

Mr Neil

The only thing that sucks about atheism is we know that when the brain is gone, so is the person, and thus there is no satisfaction of the Christian's disappointment at the end.

There can be no satisfaction for atheists over xers ever. There is no satisfaction in that the xer is wrong there is only angst and frustration when they have to drag everyone else back into the dark ages with them.

[Vigile]

You'll have to elaborate on the equal choice thing...I will be the first to tell you that life isn't fair...[/color]

 

So then, you admit it yourself that your god is unjust.

 

My choice would be belief in god; which would be a path down the road of intellectual dishonesty, or the path that I have chosen. Do you suppose I should sin against my own conscience?

 

The Hindu's choice would be to go with that which he was brainwashed with from birth or to believe the wild-eyed John 3:16 guy that confronted him at the airport when he come to America on business. Yeah, he should burn in hell for all eternity for making the wrong choice, the evil bastard.

 

The Guinean aborigine's choice would be to, well, since he never even heard of Jesus, he doesn't have a choice now does he? Oh fuck it. Burn him to.

 

But you my dear lad, you were raised in a nice clean, whitewashed, spirit filled country and your mother is probably a Sunday school teacher and your neighbor probably carpools to church with you and you have heard the gospel 956 times told in all 10 of its versions. You didn't go and get yourself one of those liberal edgeeecations so you're safe and pure and your going to spend your eternity with a crown filled with many jewels for the harassing you receive while visiting our piranha-infested site of heathens. Well done my good and faithful servant, well done. Just try not to think of me while I burn. You tried to save me, you really, really did.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Absolutely NOTHING about "making pure as crystal".  I would deary LOVE to know from whence you arrived at your knowledge of the Greek usage for "judgment".  I'm certain the good people of Strong's concordance would as well.

 

However, setting aside for the moment root definitions of words, it is still inescapable that the INTENT behind the use of "judgment" here in the bible was for the purpose of declaring damnation and punishment.  NOT "to purify".

 

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than this to convince me of your "Universal" salvation theology.  Not that I care one way or the other, but it would be nice if you could give people something upon which to hang their hat BESIDES your opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Amanda cherry picked from Judaic philosophy/theology and NOT the xer O.T. or the N.T. What she is saying seems familiar...but where?

[dogmatically_challenged]

thomas? Do you know?

[thomas]

thomas? Do you know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What?

[dogmatically_challenged]

What?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The idea that hell purifies us for heaven. I could swear I read something like this at a Judaic site..I'm not sure. It seems familiar.

[thomas]

I don't understand how anyone that would potentially be granted this wish for all of time would be disappointed...I don't think it's revenge, or necessarily a punishment...I simply think that it's a Creator giving His creation a choice of where they want to spend eternity...with or without Christ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do not see the point in this, if people aren't allowed to change their mind. But according to you, they aren't.

 

On the 2nd ?  I don't see anything in the Bible that would indicate that anyone gets a second chance...we have our time here on earth to make that decision...If you find that you have no need for Christ, then he honors your wishes for eternity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[thomas]

The idea that hell purifies us for heaven. I could swear I read something like this at a Judaic site..I'm not sure. It seems familiar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe you can find that in some sorts of universalism (Tentmaker Org) and also to some extent in the Catholic Faith.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I believe you can find that in some sorts of universalism (Tentmaker Org) and also to some extent in the Catholic Faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't they copy this idea from the few jewish philosophers who believed hell was a place that purified the sinner for heaven? That sinners would be let out after a year in hell?

 

I even heard that a few jewish philosophers believed in reincarnation.

[thomas]

Didn't they copy this idea from the few jewish philosophers who believed hell was a place that purified the sinner for heaven?

 

I even heard that a few jewish philosophers believed in reincarnation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In Judaism in the time of OT, I don't think people believed in a soul or in an afterlife. But Judaism has together with Christianity and Islam picked up a lot from the Greek philosophers. So you could very well be right, but I do not know much about it.

[Onyx]

I hate Hell, nuff said!