dogmatically_challenged Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 In Judaism in the time of OT, I don't think people believed in a soul or in an afterlife. But Judaism has together with Christianity and Islam picked up a lot from the Greek philosophers. So you could very well be right, but I do not know much about it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks thomas. Hellonized Jews changed the religion, and then side by side with xianity evolved as well. I'm gonna go through my bookmarks. heh. The evolution of religion is a tangled mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 Thanks thomas. Hellonized Jews changed the religion, and then side by side with xianity evolved as well. I'm gonna go through my bookmarks. heh. The evolution of religion is a tangled mess. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good luck. Let me know your conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Good luck. Let me know your conclusions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Will do bro! This is interetsing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I can't seem to find what I'm looking for yet...but I bet we will find it in the Zohar. I will look further into this. I believe this concept Amanda stole is older than xianity. Zohar be worth looking into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 I believe this concept Amanda stole is older than xianity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Guess you are right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Guess you are right <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can't seem to find what I'm looking for yet...but I bet we will find it in the Zohar. I will look further into this. I believe this concept Amanda stole is older than xianity. Older than judaism perhaps.. Not only would the Zohar be worth looking into... LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I hate Hell, nuff said! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Threats of going to Hell is worse than a kick in the face with golf shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 HanSolo. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That was also my guess. I have noted, that you write part of his name in bold, but I still wan't sure about it. I like HanSolo very much too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 I will look further into this. I believe this concept Amanda stole is older than xianity. Older than judaism perhaps.. Not only would the Zohar be worth looking into... LOL! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What concept? Maybe I can save you some time? BTW, who is Zohar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 The only thing that sucks about atheism is we know that when the brain is gone, so is the person, <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dearest Mr Neil, as a scientific approach... I am curious to know how can you definitely conclude that consciousness does not extend past the life of the body? While it seems that the body's animation can be distroyed indeed, and the physical aspects deteriorate, this is NOT so with the continual fluidity in the existence of the consciousness... right? And if this energy can not be created or distroyed... what happens to this energy we contain when the body is gone? I'd be very interested in the current scientific position of this, if you or anyone else knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I'd be very interested in the current scientific position of this, if you or anyone else knows. We're just a bunch of dumb ol' apes. We're hardly smart enough to figure out definitively what happens after someone deis. Nobody knows yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 We're just a bunch of dumb ol' apes. We're hardly smart enough to figure out definitively what happens after someone deis. Nobody knows yet. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Eponymic, great response! I agree! So we can't automatically conclude, scientifically, what happens to one's stream of thought, can we? No one KNOWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Helmet Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Well... we know thoughts arise from neuronal processing in the brain so it would be reasonable to suppose that thoughts end with the death of the brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carrion Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Most people don't know that Buddhism also has a concept of Hell; the difference between the Buddhist and Christian Hells is that the Buddhist one allows opportunity for escape by betterment of the intellectual self. Christians on the other hand buy into an ideology in which the adherent feels much better if there are people they can look down on from Heaven and watch suffer for all eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Well... we know thoughts arise from neuronal processing in the brain so it would be reasonable to suppose that thoughts end with the death of the brain. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dark Helmet, do you know if consciousness arises from or are they transmitted via neuronal processing? FWIW, I think that these sites, involving experiments, are quite interesting in regards to Out of Body Experiences (Consciousness leaving one's body): An encyclopedia: Scroll half way down till you read topics… External Verifications of OBE Other Observations of OBE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience Experiments from a psychologist in California: http://www.near-death.com/tart.html A table of contents from literature from the Library of Congress: Table of contents for Out-of-body exploring : a beginner's approach / Preston Dennett. Bibliographic record and links to related information available from the Library of Congress catalog. http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip0418/2004013415.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Most people don't know that Buddhism also has a concept of Hell; the difference between the Buddhist and Christian Hells is that the Buddhist one allows opportunity for escape by betterment of the intellectual self. Christians on the other hand buy into an ideology in which the adherent feels much better if there are people they can look down on from Heaven and watch suffer for all eternity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Christopher! I think what the Bible is really saying is that the war between heaven and hell is within us! Jesus says that the kingdom of God is within us, heaven. If one doesn't have any foundations on which to stand... that's the bottomless pit? Lava, the lake of fire, is what we're standing on... and in some states of mind there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Buddha and Christ are similar, if not the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest no surprises Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Ah, the wet dream of every Christian. The day that they arrive in the afterlife and discover that it was all true! Reminds me of that one episode of Family Guy where the Pope smites Brian and Stewie, and the nothing happens. Then he says, "He's cooking something up." Christians can't wait for the unbelievers to find out that they're wrong. They sit up at night awake, chuckling to themselves about that day when it comes. I don't feel that way at all Neil...I have the same compassion for believers and non-believers alike. I don't get excited over anyone's misfortune...well, I guess I struggle with that concerning my ex-wife...but other than that, I don't get my kicks from seeing people sad or hurting. Of course, if your scenario ever happened, and I found myself in Heaven being dogged by old relatives because I didn't go to church, the first thing out of my mouth would be, "Well, I'm here, so apparently I didn't have to go to that stuffy building. I was justified to stay in bed. I may have been wrong but so were you!" It would seem that God applauds intellectual honesty. Incidentally, the torture wouldn't be the nagging. It would be the knowledge that loved ones are in Hell and there's nothing I can do for them. Luckily, I don't believe in invisible magic beings. The only thing that sucks about atheism is we know that when the brain is gone, so is the person, and thus there is no satisfaction of the Christian's disappointment at the end. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 I don't feel that way at all Neil...I have the same compassion for believers and non-believers alike. I don't get excited over anyone's misfortune...well, I guess I struggle with that concerning my ex-wife...but other than that, I don't get my kicks from seeing people sad or hurting.But that's absolutely not what I said. I was pointing out the wishful thinking of Christians who look forward to seeing all the unbelievers realize that they (the Christians) were right all along. Remember, I used your scenario in which the atheists somehow made it into Heaven, and that the worst "torture" (you did use the word "torture") would be that of having to listen to other people say "I told you so". In other words, the Christians are getting excited at the prospect of having their beliefs verified at last! And how amusing it would be for the Christians to reach the afterlife and get to pester the nay-sayers. Of course, that's not going to happen anyway, because Christianity is demonstratably wrong. It literally cannot be correct as a whole, because it's parts are incompatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest no surprises Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 But that's absolutely not what I said. I was pointing out the wishful thinking of Christians who look forward to seeing all the unbelievers realize that they (the Christians) were right all along. Remember, I used your scenario in which the atheists somehow made it into Heaven, and that the worst "torture" (you did use the word "torture") would be that of having to listen to other people say "I told you so". In other words, the Christians are getting excited at the prospect of having their beliefs verified at last! And how amusing it would be for the Christians to reach the afterlife and get to pester the nay-sayers. Of course, that's not going to happen anyway, because Christianity is demonstratably wrong. It literally cannot be correct as a whole, because it's parts are incompatible. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm just saying that I'm not one of 'those' Christians...I'm not spending any time during this life trying to prove anyone wrong...I definitely wouldn't spend any of eternity gloating over that. My imagery involving "torture" was more of a shot at humor. I will be excited to be able to look Jesus Christ in the face one day...I'm hoping that all memories of life on earth will fade away. Just as a side...Did you used to go by just "Neil" and have an avatar from the movie Pocahontas...or a close facsimile there of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 I'm just saying that I'm not one of 'those' Christians...I'm not spending any time during this life trying to prove anyone wrong...I definitely wouldn't spend any of eternity gloating over that. My imagery involving "torture" was more of a shot at humor. I will be excited to be able to look Jesus Christ in the face one day...I'm hoping that all memories of life on earth will fade away. Just as a side...Did you used to go by just "Neil" and have an avatar from the movie Pocahontas...or a close facsimile there of? Of course you hope that, so you don't have to think about everyone getting burned in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest no surprises Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Of course you hope that, so you don't have to think about everyone getting burned in hell. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't spend anytime thinking about hell now...I doubt I will then. The Bible says that there won't be any pain or sorrow in heaven...I don't have a clue how that all pans out. It is interesting, because I have a grandpa who attended church, and was a good man, but never told me or showed me that he had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Obviously, I hope that he did, and I will see him for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 I don't spend anytime thinking about hell now...I doubt I will then. Selfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 I don't spend anytime thinking about hell now...I doubt I will then. The Bible says that there won't be any pain or sorrow in heaven...I don't have a clue how that all pans out. It is interesting, because I have a grandpa who attended church, and was a good man, but never told me or showed me that he had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Obviously, I hope that he did, and I will see him for eternity. Of course you don't, because you don't care. All you care about is getting to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceMonk Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 ...I don't think it's revenge, or necessarily a punishment...I simply think that it's a Creator giving His creation a choice of where they want to spend eternity...with or without Christ. Just my opinion, not necessarily the opinion of every Christian, or even the majority of Christians. It's not even the opinion of Jesus Christ himself. Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Here, in an actual bible verse, in the words of Jesus himself (as opposed to a modern apologetic revision) it says that hell is a Punishment. So it is ultimately vindictive, because punishments are inflicted - and can be ended, and no true or balanced system of justice would use any eternal punishment. God is supposedly Love. 1 Corinthians gives a famous description of what love is supposed to be like, including this: 1 Corinthians 4:5 …It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. “Keeps no record of wrongs”, it says. So what’s with the eternal punishment? If the threat of eternal hell doesn’t put the fear of God into me then nothing will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 It's not even the opinion of Jesus Christ himself.Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Here, in an actual bible verse, in the words of Jesus himself (as opposed to a modern apologetic revision) it says that hell is a Punishment. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi SpaceMonk! It seems to me that somewhere along the way, the 'Christian' movement clearly wanted to 'scare' people into heaven. IMO, what a mistake! There does seem to be respect for judgement of our detrimental actions, yet that is for EVERYONE... no matter what one's label is. It is my opinion that hell is not a permanent place, I believe it to be a state of mind. The word 'punishment' in this case is used in regards to those that hurt the 'least' of these here on earth. This word 'punishment' can also mean 'correction'. I is my opinion that once a person has found correction for their ways, then they make the transition to eternal life. site for my resources: http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...r&new=1&oq=hell Matthew 25 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. punishment: kovlasiß from (2849) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Kolasis 3:816,451 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech kol'-as-is Noun Feminine Definition correction, punishment, penalty Evolving from this: (2849) to lop or prune, as trees and wings to curb, check, restrain to chastise, correct, punishment to cause to be punished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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